Two IPs In A Pod
Brilliant inventions, fresh product designs, iconic brand names and artistic creativity are not only the building blocks of successful business - they deliver a better world for us all. But these valuable forms of intellectual property must be protected in order to flourish. We are the Chartered Institute of Patent Attorneys - the UK's largest intellectual property organisation. Our hosts Lee Davies and Gwilym Roberts chat with entrepreneurs, creatives, patent attorneys and the occasional judge about how patents, trade marks, designs and copyright can improve our lives and solve problems for humanity.
Two IPs In A Pod
IP & Me
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Ever wondered how a casual chat about football and shirts can effortlessly lead to a deep dive into equity, diversity, and inclusion within the intellectual property profession? That's exactly what happens in this episode as Lee reminisces about his unexpected participation in a football tournament, setting a relaxed and humorous tone before we dive into the serious topic at hand. We then introduce our brilliant guests— Beatrice Malacart, Lianne Da-Cunha, and Riddhi Patel, trainee patent attorneys at Forrester's—who share their unique journeys and emphasize the importance of fostering a diverse and inclusive environment in the IP field.
Diversity and Inclusion in IPME
Speaker 1Hello mate . That was a lovely smile you just greeted me with then . I love it when you're happy in the mornings .
Speaker 2I am happy . I'm happy about your shirt . I know it's not a visual podcast , it's a pretty shirt . We've already said you look like the inside of a goth oyster .
Speaker 1A goth oyster . Yeah , I thought it was a lot . When I tried it on , it looked a lot brighter . I thought the brighter bits were probably down the bottom . Don't unbutton it , lee . I don't know what you're doing there . I'm thinking a lot about shirts at the moment , because I had to try on my football shirt yesterday .
Speaker 2Oh yes .
Speaker 1Because we are playing . The SIPA team is playing in the Informals football tournament this Friday .
Speaker 2Oh , you're playing .
Speaker 1Yeah , I wasn't originally , but we've had an injury and someone's had to drop out , so I'm in the team I've made it .
Speaker 2How old are you , Lee ?
Speaker 1I will be 58 in December , Gwilym .
Speaker 2What's the average age of the people playing in the tournament ?
Speaker 1Late 20s probably .
Speaker 2It's going to be like that scene in X-Men , where one person runs around really , really fast and everyone else goes in slow motion . I'm afraid it's gonna be . Can we film it ?
Speaker 1I'm absolutely sure it would be fair , but I was explaining to so bod , new member of staff . See , the bod is our sort of guru on this . He's been managing our um foray into football and I was explaining to him yesterday . I was never actually . I love playing football , but I was never actually any good . I used to play right back in the in the 80s , in in the days when , uh , playing in defensive or was just stopping people , which I could do , I'll bet I was a good physical barrier if I had to use my feet less . So . So , and yeah , and that was 30 mid something years ago . So you .
Speaker 2You could ask if , given your uh maturity , you can bring a squash racket .
Speaker 1Yeah , well , I am thinking that , at least that I'm fit , I do play a bit of squash , but it's a very different game , isn't it ? And if I just charge around the pitch aimlessly , which is how I play my squash , that might not go down brilliantly .
Speaker 2But with the racket you can just swat people when they come near you .
Speaker 1And actually you've now just given me an idea for a closer question . So just hold that thought I will need to go and get a prop , but I've now got an idea for a closer question .
Speaker 2Excellent .
Speaker 4Lee Davis and Gwilym Roberts are the two IPs in the pod and you are listening to a podcast on intellectual property brought to you by the Chartered Institute of Patent Determination .
Speaker 1We've got three guests who are sat there thinking we've come on the wrong show . This isn't what we were expecting at all . I love it when we and we've got a series of these coming up when we do an IP inclusive type podcast . They're really cool because you get you get people on the leading edge of um , all of the work that we're doing around uh , equity , diversity and inclusion , and today's no different . So today we're looking at um , ip and me , and we've got three guests on who are going to explain to us all what that's about .
Speaker 1I mean , we have touched on this previously in the podcast , but I mean , you will , of course , remember that we've had ip inclusive on in the past and we've kind of talked about this , and when we , when we first started the podcasts , it was in that time in lockdown , when , when diversity and inclusion was become particularly around , race was , uh , was a big thing because of horrible , nasty things that have been happening in in the states and and we're rolling out of that . So so we have done some , some content on this before , so I think it's really really good time to revisit it . So let's get the guests on , shall we ? Yes , so let's start with Beatrice , beatrice , who are you ? This is , this is your moment to kind of explain to us who you are , what you're doing hello everyone .
Speaker 5I'm Beatrice , you can call me B and I am one of the three co-leads of IPME , and that's why I'm here today . I am a trainee patisserie at Forrester's . I started it almost three years ago now , so I'm poor qualified in the UK sitting finals this year . And , yes , I'm in the life science team . So my background is in biology and that is me .
Speaker 1Well , thank you and welcome to the podcast . Thank you Above everything else , enjoy yourself , because this is a nice , friendly , relaxed conversation . Leanne over to you .
Speaker 4Hi , yes , I'm Leanne . I'm a bit of a theme here , similar to be also a trainee patent attorney at Forrester's . I'm kind of going through my exams , got my UK finals coming up . I'm in the tech and engineering team so I did engineering and then specialised in manufacturing engineering at uni and , yeah , I restarted this role in IPME beginning of this year and it's great to be on here and talk about it .
Speaker 1Thank you so much for coming on . We're really looking forward to the conversation , riddhi , last but not least , of course , Hi , course , hi , yeah , going in full circle .
Speaker 3So I'm the third co-lead um of ipme . I also work at foresters . I joined about the profession about uh , just under two years ago and I started with another company who was based in leeds and then moved over to foresters in january and it's been great so far . I've got a background in physics and I'm also in the tech and energy team with Leanne , just in a different office , and I'm also a trainee ready to do my foundation exams towards the end of this year .
Speaker 1Cool and welcome to you too , the three of you . Where's best to start Realising that you might now compete for airspace and maybe sort of . I'm not sure if you've thought about who's going to lead on what , but maybe take us through how IPME came about , what its purpose is , what you've done to date , what you hope to do in the future . Just take us on a tour through everything you're doing .
Speaker 5I guess we'll pass the words between each other , but I can start in general . I've been actually part of the IPME a bit longer than Riddhi and Leanne , because I was part of the committee last year as well , but I was the social secretary , if you want to call it that . So IPME started quite a long time ago now , probably like 2015 or something like that a bit later and we are a community that focus on ethnic minorities in the IP profession and our aim is to celebrate diversity and inclusion , to support people in the ethnic minority , create a network and assist people from minority backgrounds in the profession to get in , which is already hard for everyone , but even more if you come from an ethnic minority and , yeah , in general , to create a safe space for people and also to celebrate the diversity of this profession .
Engaging Ethnic Diversity in IPME
Speaker 5Fridia , liana want to add anything ?
Speaker 3So IPME is like one subgroup under IP Inclusive . There are six subgroups underneath . I'm sure you know from the previous episode . And yeah , so we focus on the ethnic minority part of ED&I Leanne . Anything else ?
Speaker 4I think that basically covered all the main things . We kind of just volunteer our time and come up with different events , try to build a community . Yeah , I guess . I guess that's it .
Speaker 1Build a strong community is one of our biggest aims so , so , first of all , a big thank you to you for the work that you're doing voluntarily . That's um , it's amazing that you do that and , uh , you know super . But the ip world , particularly when you look at the uh , cinema and others in the space , it kind of exists um , but for the work of people who work voluntarily . So I think it's amazing . We don't , um , we really really do appreciate it . So I think let's let's start off by saying that do you want to take us through some of the things that you've done , um , or perhaps some of the things you've got planned for the future ?
Speaker 3we uh , I think we kicked off the year with a coffee club in february and that was themed on love , affection and kindness and how that varies across like different ethnic groups . That was super interesting , had great turnouts how many people did you get ?
Speaker 5the first one thing was about just under 20 .
Speaker 3Yeah yeah , yeah , 15 , 20 and then the next coffee club we had . I was inspired by the theme . So the theme was why is ED&I still important ? Because somebody came up to me and they were like oh , you know , you're part of IPME , it's to do with ethnic minorities , but do you feel like there's still a difference or do you think we've , like , overcome all of these issues in the past ? So you know , I was a bit astonished at that question but didn't know the answer . So I searched out to this community and did it through a coffee club and that had a really great turnout . I think there was like maybe 35-40 people there and I think it reached across to the police department as well , because some someone's partner from IP saw that we were doing this and they wanted the ethnic minority police department and a few different jurisdictions like join as well .
Speaker 5So that's good yeah , that was nerve-wracking so hang on .
Speaker 2The police came along to your coffee club yeah , just for fun they were , they in uniform sounds really a nerve-wracking it was camera off , mostly for them ?
Speaker 1Was that the IP bit of the police ? Was that the PIPCOO people ? The Police Intellectual Property Crime Unit .
Speaker 4No , I think it was someone from the IP profession . His wife worked at Cambridgeshire Police and actually I think she um , is in charge or like leads one of the diversity groups there and thought this could be useful and it's just word of mouth like that oh wow , that's amazing .
Speaker 2Maybe we should drop the ip part of our name just a quick question there actually , or statement really , which is that you obviously got a topic there . They've got real interest . That second one about is edi so important ? I am surprised anyone's asking that question , but there has been some talk . I think that , for example , the government is a little less committed . Let's not speak for the new government actually , but recently government has been a little bit less committed and a little bit less forward-looking than it was maybe a few years ago . So , if anything , it's even more important now , isn't it ?
Speaker 5yeah , I think we actually saw this theme and came up during our conversation in the coffee club how it was during covid , as you said , that it felt like topics like ed and I and my other comparison is sustainability felt like they were the most important topics that everyone should be talking about . For some reason , the past few years it's been just a bit gone backwards , not like not backwards in the way that got worse , but just people not as interested or not at the forefront of everyone's mind , and I do think that probably the ugly things going around the world um wars and things like that have probably taken the forefront of everyone's minds . But we have noticed a shift and it's one of the things we talked about during the coffee club actually .
Speaker 4Yeah , and during I think it was during that coffee club we put out like a word cloud and as people were saying things , we were writing down words that kept coming up and I think the word that stood out was fatigue . Like ed and I , fatigue , um , it's that feeling of a bit of frustration that you know we keep pursuing the same topics . It doesn't feel like we're getting anywhere and it just feels like we're not making impact anymore . Maybe that's also why you know the government doesn't feel like there's as big a push . It's just it's slowed down , but you have to just keep going . It's like I think someone said it's a marathon not a sprint . You have to just keep keep going , keep pushing . It's always going to be important and that's .
Speaker 2That's fatigue within the community , as it were , as opposed to externally , from people not in the community just kind of thinking . Okay , I've had enough of this , let's move to the next topic now . Is it was everywhere ? Is the fatigue everywhere ?
Speaker 5I think it's allies as well . I think it's just people that are committed to this um work still are finding that they have to repeat the same things over and over again , host the same events over and over again just to try to reach more and more people . And I think this is another challenge that the whole of ip inclusive is going through , of trying to expand to outsider the people that there's so many people that already work within ip inclusive and they come to the events , but it feels like it's hard to convert new people and you're preaching to the converted , I think , is the sentence that came up a few times um , so I think that's the fatigue that a lot of people feel yeah , I think the other thing is , like most of the events etni events that are held , people who are already part of that group and care about it come along to it , but the outreach needs to be like further than that , and that's where I guess some frustration comes in that too any thoughts or ideas on different things you can do for outreach ?
Speaker 1um , it must be tough , wasn't it ?
Speaker 5things like this , things . This is exactly , uh , why we're here . I think , um , we know it's a new . It's a different channel from what usual ip inclusive channels . It's not just the linkedin pages and things like that . So we hope that new people will hear about our communities and things like that . And even just when we meet other trainees , sometimes they have no idea that our group exists and that it's astonishing to us because it feels like it's our whole life , but for other people it doesn't even exist .
Speaker 3Yeah , I think in the coffee clubs you had a few ideas come up as well . Like someone was saying that to make make ED&I part of the appraisal process at work as well . So like have you attended you know one hour of something to do with ED&I or have you contributed , and that could be like a really nice way to make sure it's kind of compulsory for everyone . But I don't know if you want to force that on to somebody or not , sure ?
Speaker 5force that onto somebody , or not sure . Another idea is start to invite people that already come and they're already converted , as we say , to just bring a mate , just say , bring a friend that you doesn't usually go , and just say just come to this event and hopefully , um , slowly that will spread and they'll have a good time and then maybe come again .
Speaker 4Yeah , I think a big bit is almost giving that explicit permission . People think they can't come just because for south asian heritage month . I'm not south asian . I feel I feel strange coming like just realizing that there's this definition , there's this term called an ally or you can . You can just we're trying to make it as open as possible , just just by . Anyone can join and we're not scary people , we was everyone's trying to figure it out . Just because we're , you know you might identify in that certain group , doesn't mean you've got all the answers . It's more just like uh , everyone's there to learn and educate themselves well , I was going to ask what sort of a percentage question .
Speaker 1That's an awful way to ask this question in terms of allies do you get enough people turning up to the events that you do who are not from directly within the community but supportive of it , or do you need more allies ?
Speaker 5I actually think that , for I think about coffee clubs we do have a good mix and but it does from memory again , it feels like they are the same people . Uh , so maybe not new ones and without too much stereotype . I do feel like a lot of the allies are often women more than men we can certainly try and fix that through the podcast .
Speaker 1So there's a call out there , isn't it ? Let's get more men involved in allyship , please that word ally has .
Speaker 2Whoever came up with it is brilliant because it has helped people who , yeah , maybe weirdly this may strange sound it's a little bit fraught , as you can suggest it . You feel like a bit like a bit of a fraud filling up to these things without some kind of recognition of where you fit into the pictures . That term ally I find incredibly helpful personally , and I think another thing we should really push that whole ally side is that that's what every you know , I thought everyone else , everyone else outside that little group is an ally . Hopefully that's what we want to kind of create .
Speaker 5I think that vibe actually yeah , I'm the ally of the co-leads as well . I am not from a minority ethnic background , so even just me being there hopefully shows that you can even be a very active part of these groups without needing to be part of the denomination or whatever . So , yeah , allyship is also the very important theme of this year for ip inclusive in general , for all the groups , so that is definitely our priority can I throw in a perception question ?
Speaker 1and because I often , when I'm asked the question that I'm about to , I think , post to you , I always , I always answer it from the sort of frame of reference that I've got , which is obviously to be sick of super . I see all of the kind of applications for , uh , particularly new students coming into profession . Uh , you go , you go along to the con , the super conference , and you go along to other student events so you get a feel for what the profession is like currently from a student intake perspective . So if you , if you look at that , we're not great at doing diversity statistics gathering , but I know that we do a lot of work on that in print , doing it , um , uh , we've just done a recent survey on it . So so we know that historically we've not been great around sort of representation from ethnic minorities .
Speaker 1But when you look at the student population , when you look at , perhaps , if you look over the last five to seven years , you definitely get a sense that that's changing . Yeah , you definitely get a sense that it seems to be that more and more people from diverse backgrounds are finding ways into the profession . People from diverse backgrounds finding ways into the profession , presumably because of the brilliant work that ip inclusive has been doing , uh , through careers and ideas and through sepa and sitmar and others now starting to position themselves in this space . So do you get that sort of sense from your perspective ? So this is me looking at it kind of externally . Do you get that sense from your perspective ? Are you seeing the profession changing in that way ? Is that , is that a fair assessment ?
Speaker 4I think .
Speaker 4So , yeah , I think I think probably we we went , we all three went to the student conference , the C for student conference , earlier this year and I think that was like the best opportunity to see a lot of people our age , um , in one room and I think that you could definitely see it .
Speaker 4It was , it was very diverse , it was people from all sorts of backgrounds , um , and when you talk to people more senior when they came in , um , you know , when you and you're looking for a job and you go on the people's page of the companies and you naturally just look through and think , can I , can I see myself fitting in there ? Will I , will I stand out ? But I think it's definitely you can see a difference and and , like you say , it's also because IP Inclusive they at that student conference even they had a , they had a big talk then and just pushing their name out , spreading awareness , that's all going to make such a difference . And I feel like it's it's anyway a niche career , so it's difficult as it is to get people in , but if it's it's more , you know , through word of mouth , you know people recommending . So I think just naturally it's it's it's going to grow and become more diverse um as people , people join yeah , yeah , we also get um speaking from people within the community or , in general , people from ethnic minorities .
Speaker 5Everyone gets lots of linkedin messages from people similar to them or that maybe see see themselves in people that are already in the profession and ask for help and tips on how to get in and how it is to be part of the profession when being part of an ethnic minority . So definitely putting yourselves out there helps , even with just visibility , for more people to see you and be inspired and wanting to join in .
Speaker 2I noticed , actually , when you were talking about some of the focuses that you have . You mentioned , you know , diversity within the creative community , diversity within the profession , but I think you also talked specifically about the challenges of getting in from a minority background . You've given one kind of reason there , which is that you look at the profession , think , oh , that's not , that's , that's very white , that's very male , whatever it might be , what are the other obstacles ? I think we don't see . I don't see these obstacles and I didn't have any obstacles like that , so I don't understand what they are . What kind of obstacles do you think sit there in terms of getting into the profession ?
Addressing Diversity Hurdles in Employment
Speaker 4I think one of the big important skill to have maybe is , like your writing skills and , like you know , really describing things clearly . And for a lot of people , english might not be their first language , so it's already like a big , a big hurdle there . I think we sometimes get um people emailing the ipme address and just asking for advice and it's it's . It's so difficult . You want to um make this a open for everyone , but it's such a competitive field and if an employer is looking at two different cover letters and they can't , they they don't know who's written it and they they're naturally going to go to the one that maybe just writes a bit more fluently .
Speaker 3I think some of the other issues , like the LinkedIn messages that I have from , I think , minority groups , is that they're always wondering about visas and like I don't know about that because I was born and raised here , um , but my parents were like first generation migrants over from India and Africa and I mean maybe like a bit more , I think . I think that's a hurdle for them . Like they don't know where to find that information and I mean , even if I did a quick google search , I don't think I would be able to find that information to tell them , like what firms offer visas , what firms don't , um , so maybe some sort of like some , yeah , like something to do with that . That's a bit of a hurdle for them just thinking on my feet .
Speaker 1Um will know this . We have a meeting with managing partners . Uh , so we don't catch all of the firms in in the uk , but we capture the big ones at that meeting . Um , we've got one coming up in a week or so . There's no reason why we couldn't just pop on the agenda , is that ? You know , could we get some sort of sense of firms that are supporting people with visa applications or whatever that might look like , and maybe that's the sort of thing that we can then put on the sleeper website so that there is information there ? It was to me that you've immediately identified a gap that we can fill .
Speaker 4No , that's really good . Yeah , that'd be great . Thank you , I think it is just yeah , that'll be great to . Maybe it's just something companies aren't as aware of , or that they need to make that more visible on their website or something , so people don't get deterred .
Speaker 1I mean , it hadn't struck me until you said it . It needs someone to say it for me to understand that that's something that's .
Speaker 2It's a , it's a gap and we can fill it another area that I often hear used as justification for the low ethnic minority intake is attached to the necessary science qualifications that you have to have . Just saying , well , part of the problem we have more ethnic minorities in , but of course not enough people from ethnic minorities study science subjects and therefore the pool isn't there in the first place . Um , I happen to hate that argument . I think it's a very convenient way of blaming the education system for something that people should be trying to solve . But I mean , do you think that's a problem ? Do you think there's anything that's we can be doing there ?
Speaker 4I guess it's difficult I think anything about like your university experience and who was on the course , like it was . I I never noticed that being an issue , like it was a very diverse um , diverse cohort when I did engineering , I think . I think it's more just like the awareness specifically of this role . So it's not that there aren't enough people from ethnic minorities doing stem degrees , but it's more not having the contacts or those people at higher positions to tell them that this exists , maybe not getting as much access through connections to get work experience in and like build , build your seat , but it's not specifically just you get fewer people from ethnic minorities on like doing a stem degree yeah , I think , in general , from even just speaking to people we had we recorded a bit of a panel yesterday , uh , with people from ethnic minorities and it we all agreed that that wasn't definitely not the issue , and it seems like you do agree .
Speaker 5And , um , everyone's experience at university was my , my cohort was diverse , so , and we all did STEM degrees , and so I don't know which universities then don't have the diversity that we're looking for . However , again , I've only had my experience in my university in Edinburgh , but maybe when you get to maybe the more elite universities , it's possible that the balance is not as much , and those are the ones that probably get hired most in this field , but I don't know . If it's . Yeah , I don't like that argument either . It's an excuse .
Speaker 2That's a reassuring answer , isn't it ? Because that means that people can helpuring answer , isn't it ? Because that means that people can help , because we can do , we can stop plugging the other holes . That you point is to follow on . You know , I'm doing this degree and I do a little bit of tutoring , um , for gcse students , and it's interesting how it's tutoring in science . But when you say what are you going to do with it , they haven't got the first clue .
Building Inclusive Community in IP
Speaker 2But I think you know , whereas I suspect people from other backgrounds might well say well , I'm going to do what my uncle Charlie did I'll be a patent attorney . That's always been the way of this niche profession . It's not right . We need that diversity for so many reasons . That's interesting , lee . There's some stuff there . It's not really the case that we're not seeing the diversity within the science STEM subjects . We can't rely on what the profession can't get behind that saying well , it's the education system . What's happening is that people aren't getting the introductions , don't understand where there's an option I think , leanne , you said also or perhaps look at the profession and think it's not for people like me . I think that's an interesting comment as well .
Speaker 4Yeah , exactly , and I guess in some ways , that's something that we can address . It's it's good to know , that's something that we're here for , to increase that awareness .
Speaker 4But I think you actually do look to um you know , any family members or any role models you have and if you don't see if how you can fit in and you , it's a maybe you're going to it's a corporate job . It can seem quite intimidating if you don't have anyone to reassure you . Actually it's a maybe you're going to . It's a corporate job . It can seem quite intimidating if you don't have anyone to reassure you . Actually it's a , it's a great career . It's just um , it's just pretty um unheard of by the majority sometimes like .
Speaker 3So something else that came out of the is like having policies so you might um recruit and be really diverse when you recruit , but when , like these ethnic minorities are coming into your workplaces like , are you also looking after them in that way ? And I think that was quite an important thing that came up um whether , like companies and workplaces are equipped to like accommodate ethnic minorities and like people from like that are really diverse um , so we were looking to put together a policy checklist and um kind of like what people would want in their workplaces , so whether it's like a prayer room or a bit more work flexibility around religious festivals and holidays I mean , those are really important points , aren't they ?
Speaker 1and I'm not not just for ip , but for any employer yeah it's uh , yeah , if you are going , if you are going to reach out , recruit in a more sort of inclusive way and ensure that your workforce is representative of the population at large , then you're going to need to consider all those factors . You can't , you can't , you can't create a culture just by recruiting the right people . You need to provide the environment where they're able to be comfortable and stay . Yeah , we've got to be able to do enough of that . So maybe what we do for a future managing partners meeting Willem , I'm just thinking is why don't we invite the leaders of at least two or three of IP-inclusive groups to come and address the managing partners , just like this ? How cool would that be ?
Speaker 2Yeah , I think the topics that leap out are basically initial hiring and retention , both of which everybody , one reason , one reason or another , struggles with um . On that retention , one one that fascinates me is you've mentioned the kind of the religious side and festivities and that kind of thing which obviously , again , we're getting more aware of . I think everybody's now being bought better on that , which is really important . Another one is the social aspect and Lee knows I've got a slight one of my mention pokepads , it turns out is around the very British pub culture . You begin to realise it's great if you love the pub and it's part of your kind of life and , frankly , your faith or whatever .
Speaker 5But that's presumably pretty exclusive if you're not careful . Yeah , definitely , and I think we are starting to uh see that as well , and even I think people I mean I think leon and ready both grew up in the uk and I've moved here , uh , almost six years or something , so I think it's hard even for us sometimes to just say , oh , maybe we should do a social event and let's just meet up in a pub , and then we stop and think that's not probably representative of what our community even wants . And actually it sounds like from previous conversation that a lot of the ethnic minorities that come and join our groups are food in their countries one of the main social excuses to meet up , and things like that , rather than drink , we have supper clubs have always also been a an idea being talked about to have to create community rather than sitting in a pub , um , where the expectation is to have alcohol , which is not everyone's favorite activity yeah , we've got , um , I think like for south asian sorry , south asian heritage month , which actually I think might running until mid-august .
Speaker 4Um , we're doing a , a like a book club event , um , so something a bit different . So tell people to read a , um , read a book , and then we're gonna have a south asian snacks , um , and it'll be our first in-person event of the year . So just doing a slightly , just slightly different things that might seem a bit more informal and casual . You know you should read a book so it doesn't feel like you're just walking into an event and it's um , you don't know what they're going to be talking about . You know you've come armed with your book and you're in your , you're the , you know the storyline , you know it's gonna , we're gonna be what we're gonna be discussing . So it's just um , I guess these are individual , one-off events , but we're hoping over time people start meeting each other and it builds more of a community and then they feel more confident to reach out to each other and organize their own events or say , hey , there's this exhibition going on .
Speaker 2Um , let's go see this together and , rather than just the usual , let's go down to the pub something I've done um a couple of a few times with especially clients and contacts from from asia have come over here and they're good , they're quite interested to see the pub and to go to it . But when I explained that the British way of doing it is stay in the pub till 11 o'clock and that we have a phrase eating is cheating , they look at me in utter horror like a total barbarian , which of course , is basically correct . But that was the first insight I got into just how weird some of the British habits are and , again , how alien they can be . That's not part of your background and genuinely exclusive if you're not a drinker , for example . So I've got a big thing about that . Doesn't have to go to the pub .
Speaker 1I don't just say it's um , and I commend you for it . It's um , I think it's . I think it's important for people to come out and say , yeah , actually I was a big part of this , this is , this is how it was . And , um , yeah , recognize that people aren't necessarily comfortable like that . We need to change . Yeah , I think it's great what you're doing .
Speaker 4Personally , yeah , yeah , I think , um , yeah , I guess growing up also . So both my parents are um , originally from india , and it's just always , you know , if you have people over or anything , it's always food , food . If they're not rolling out the door like stuffed , that it's just . It's just . I feel like it's just it comes and everyone . Yeah , it's just , that's always . If there's any sort of event or people over or anything , it's just that .
Speaker 1That's always the , the focus now I can see this heading a different direction , of course , because there are people like me who try to not eat um , because I'm a bit odd like that and I , I might , I might be feel alien at these events if you're eating um . No , sorry , it's a joke , I , I , I , as good as knows , I eat like a horse .
Speaker 2I'd be loved I mean physically it , I mean every in every sense . He's like a horse horrific . We just put .
Speaker 1We just put a bag on his face and leave him to it I thought that wasn't for eating purposes , though that was just to hide me , wasn't it ?
Speaker 2we put some crisps in . It lasts longer .
Speaker 5I'm originally from Italy and I grew up there , and I always say this comparison between British and Italian culture that you go out for food as an excuse to drink and we go out for drinks an excuse to eat more , because when we go out for drinks . In Italy we get little olives , crisps , a little snack . Isn't surprised , it's just an excuse to eat more , while here it feels the opposite you go out for dinner to just have a bottle of wine . Yeah .
Speaker 1So we talked in general terms about plans for the future . What's it feel like being an IP ? Inclusive , you're part of a much bigger community , aren't you ? It's not just the IP and me bit , but you also exist within a range of communities and there are overlap , aren't there , between those communities . How does it feel like to be working kind of cross groups ?
Speaker 5Yeah , I think we went to the AGM in April the IP Inclusive AGM and that was a very much a big hit and realization that how big the community is and the amazing work that everyone is doing . It was very emotional actually and I think we get lost in the everyday tasks of doing events and thinking about the next one and sometimes it's hard to think about the bigger picture of how everyone's like little ants doing our own job and what comes out of it is amazing and it's just very inspiring and everyone in the community is so helpful . Even at DAGM we were quite new in the leading roles and we had just asked for help . We're like how do you do this , how do you get sponsorships , how do you do this and that ? And everyone's just always happy to help and collaborate .
Speaker 5Um and it's honestly such a supportive place um and community to be part of um and it just does give you that feeling that there is a strong task force behind that . You actually can achieve things . It does . You don't feel alone and that fatigue it's a little bit less that fatigue we were talking about . You do feel like you can make change and the visibility of ip inclusive throughout the ip field in general is strong and most firms know who they are and how powerful they are , so it does feel like you have a backup and someone that really , really will support your ideas yeah , and I think there's an importance in in um , going to know the other communities and doing stuff together , because there's also the you know you have the intersectionality of , say , a woman who's also from a ethnic minority .
Speaker 4they're going to experience different problems to , or different like burdens or things compared to um , um , maybe like a woman who's not from an ethnic minority background . So you also , you know , doing overlapping events , you might be able to address different issues . So I think we were talking to the lead , lucy Coe , of Women in IP and they have an annual event that's in person , and she was saying it'd be great next year to do something together because it's I mean , I think it's even even stronger if you can push two communities together , reach more people yeah , one of the events other types of events that we do is um a lunch and learn .
Speaker 3It's like a new thing that's just coming up and we kind of invite , like guest speakers , to come and talk to everybody , whilst they have their cameras off and are stuffing their faces with food and listening to these interesting topics . And the one that's coming up is um , a woman , and she is like her life has been touched by all of these six aspects of um , the ip , inclusive . Um looks over . So it's yeah , I don't know where I'm going with this point , but um , it's a good .
Speaker 4Yeah , no , it's , it's a . I think it's three different communities and women and ip um , ip ability . Potentially it's actually this thursday , so so if anyone wants to listen to that , I guess you'll just touch on lots of different topics .
Speaker 3Yeah .
Speaker 5I think the topic is looking through a different lens , which is what you do when you do the intersectionality between the different communities . You don't only look through the IP and me lens , but only look through the ipme lens , but you look through the ip , women , women and ip lens or ip ability lens , and mixing those lenses together to give , to give the whole um , look the whole view basically , and be able to reach more people . Um , because everyone , no one is as simple as just one little viewpoint yeah so we're kind of creeping towards the end of time .
Speaker 1So I said at the start of this , um , before we started recording that kind of , we aimed to go for about 40 minutes . Well , we're we're at 45 minutes now , um , so apologies , we've run over a wee bit . We've got a little bit of time left , um , and I do have a and I do have a little closing question that I want to tease quillen with might not work so well for you three , so apologies in advance . Normally we try and involve the guests , but I'm not sure this one will . It's an age thing . Apologies in advance . Um , but before before we get to that , uh , are there any big takeouts you would want people listening to this to take away ? What are your big calls to action ?
Speaker 5Mine would be to get involved in IP , inclusive Any community that speaks to you as an ally , as part of the community . Just get involved , because there's always need for more people and you won't get exposure to these issues Like the same way if you don't get involved .
Speaker 4Yeah , I think also if it's more on the other side , where you want to help out with any of the communities , I think I had this impression that you know we're just volunteering our time and doing our best . So I think it really is kind of like be a bit on the allyship side if you're coming to events , or on the side of I'm going to help out more , um , with like spreading awareness , um , yeah , any , any , any little helps .
Speaker 3I think mine would be like just for everybody to speak out and reach out . If that sticks in your head , it's great . Um , but like and the reaching out If that sticks in your head , it's great . But like , and the reaching out part is just even to your colleagues . Like you know , you're in the same office , on the same Teams , chat and stuff . Like , just reach out to people and speak out if you see anything that doesn't quite feel right or yeah .
Reviving Childhood Sports Memories
Speaker 1Thank you all for coming . On's been amazing conversation time . The time's just flown by and good , and I always find that if it's a great podcast , it just disappears it'sa conversation and it and it just disappears , um , but we do it , we do this . This sort of thing where I try and do a tangential closing question , um always takes the guests by surprise . This one will really take you by surprise , because I don't think you're gonna be able able to answer it at all , but let's go with it , gwilym , though you need to give me just half a minute to go and get a prop , so bear with .
Speaker 2Okay , no , I'll just keep talking . I don't know what he's doing . I don't know if you listen at all . He does this Every now and then I get to ask . Top tip is that while I'm trying to think of an answer , you've got a little bit more thinking time . If it's as inappropriate as it sounds , don't fill them . I'm a bit worried it's not inappropriate .
Speaker 1When have I ever been ?
Speaker 2inappropriate . Great question , great question . Great qualification as well , lee , well done .
Speaker 1So my question is we started off talking about sport ? Yeah , that's where . That's where we started this off . And I'm wondering , willem and um , beatrice , leanne and riddy , is there , is there anything from your kind of like past , maybe your childhood , uh , in a sporting sense ? Some , some piece of equipment or some such thing that you'd love to see again , that you'd love to get back , maybe something that first attracted you to a sport and you'd love to have it again that's actually more difficult than usual because I'm so unsporty .
Speaker 2It's ridiculous . Um , I think I must have had a beautiful pair of football boots that I loved and then they got muddy because I played in them and I went off them . I'd love to .
Speaker 1I'd love to get back in the days when they were metal studs and you could screw them in and out and and sharpen them and things like that well , I did sharpen , did sharpen them .
Speaker 2I'm not a barbarian in that way . Yeah , probably a lovely old pair of boots , I think .
Speaker 1Okay . So I know it's probably terribly unfair , but let's see if it works , and then I can do my great reveal .
Speaker 5So , beatrice , anything you'd like to see again , I don't know , it's not sporty , but as soon as you said when you were young and sporty , I remember I don't even know if it exists in this country , but we used to jump Two people were holding a rope from each side and do like choreographies across the rope , and that was like the highlight of every like lunch break at school . So I miss jumping around .
Speaker 1That's .
Speaker 4That's far too complicated for someone as uncoordinated as me uh , leanne , what came to mind for me this is really when I was very young . I promised it I'm not doing the egg and spoon races anymore , but I think I think that was somehow I just had that , um , that innate talent to just balance an egg on a spoon when I was 10 . So I think that was like the one race I would get first in . So , yeah , maybe , yeah , I can't top it . Maybe there was some blue tack on it , if I ever see it again , that's why I did so well , Riddhi how about you .
Speaker 3I think mine would be like a hula hoop . So just like putting it around my neck , on my arm , like on my feet , and like hopscotching everywhere with a hula hoop that had like lights shining everywhere , that was like it's not a sport but um they go around all of those bits of your body .
Speaker 1I thought they just like went around your middle , was that not ?
Speaker 3you can do it everywhere , like it's great . I think there's a big danger .
Speaker 2I'd crick my neck or um some such thing so , lee , before we do you uh , you mentioned the informals football tournament . I think , based on what we've just talked about , that we need a full sepa sports day , massively inclusive , and it's going to have to have a choreographed skipping , um , obviously a hula hoop competition , but most of all , everybody in the entire institute has to engage in an egg and spoon race at the same time . I think the magnificence lincoln's in builds or something like that .
Speaker 1And yeah , just have a just a good old-fashioned school sports day . What a cracking idea sack race .
Speaker 2Good , yeah , all that brilliant I'm on it .
Speaker 1After this podcast I will be emailing people and I'm on it . Okay , you heard it here first listeners , so mine is , and there is a little bit of a diversity angle in this and I don't know what made me think about it when we're talking about earlier . So , um , good knows , I'm an absolutely um mad , um enthusiastic squash player and I have been since I was about 15 , 16 , which is quite it was quite unusual back in the so that would have been very early 80s and it's quite unusual for kids at that age to get involved in squash . But I was watching an exhibition match . It was a squash court that had been built in Hawksmouth's sort of like city centre and two players players .
Speaker 1They probably won't mean a huge energy , but Jonah Barrington was the English guy playing and Yehenga Khan was the Pakistan player and Yehenga Khan at that time had been world champion for like forever and a day and they got into squash and in those days we used to play with very thin , very small wooden rackets . And it was Father's Day recently and I've been . I've been talking about my first squash racket for years to my son who plays and , guillem , he managed to track down on a vintage ebay site , the racket I used to play with not just a racket I used to play with , but it's never been used . It's even got , like the cellophane , over the the grip and everything , wow so so this would have been made .
Speaker 1They probably stopped making them in about 87 88 , so this would have been made they probably stopped making them in about 87 , 88 . So this would have been kind of made then and this was the kind of like stick that I used to play with . How cool is that .
Speaker 2That's fantastic . Does the weight feel right in your arm ?
Speaker 1It feels so heavy , and so , because they're so light these days and also the heads are sort of like twice the size , which made the game far , far easier . But yeah , harry tracked it down , but I'll try and get framed or something , cause it's I'm never going to play with that . I can't play . I can't play with a big advantage squash racket . What chance have I got with an old , original one ? We'll take it to the or , if nothing else , I could use it as like a weeping violin for when I've tackled someone and they're complaining .
Speaker 1Oh , beatrice Leanne , really thank you so much for coming on . Fantastic conversation , it was delightful to hear everything you're doing . And again just to reiterate how hugely grateful we are that you're volunteering to do this sort of thing . Yeah , it's really important to us . Uh , gwen , I will , I will see you on the next one , but not before . I say to our listeners if they've really enjoyed , really enjoyed this podcast , um , then if they could just leave us a little review saying , hey , that was quite cool , um , and then people who are looking for podcasts tend to look at reviews and um , and we might get a few more listeners . Not that we need them , because , because , obviously we've got a big , big , big , big , big audience .
Speaker 2Now we've broken America , yeah .
Speaker 1Thank you . Thank you so much .
Speaker 3Thank you .
Speaker 5Thank you Bye .