Two IPs In A Pod
Brilliant inventions, fresh product designs, iconic brand names and artistic creativity are not only the building blocks of successful business - they deliver a better world for us all. But these valuable forms of intellectual property must be protected in order to flourish. We are the Chartered Institute of Patent Attorneys - the UK's largest intellectual property organisation. Our hosts Lee Davies and Gwilym Roberts chat with entrepreneurs, creatives, patent attorneys and the occasional judge about how patents, trade marks, designs and copyright can improve our lives and solve problems for humanity.
Two IPs In A Pod
IP Ability
This week Lee and Gwilym are joined by another amazing IP Inclusive Community - IP Ability.
Guests Marianne Privett (AA Thornton), Chris Clark (Vectura) and George Lucas (eip) bring both a personal and professional perspective on disability inclusion and emphasize the crucial need for a more open and accessible environment within the IP profession.
From examination accommodations for neurodivergent individuals to the legislative milestones like the UK's Equality Act, the progress made is commendable, yet there is still a long way to go.
Hello Gwilym, I've not seen you since yesterday.
Speaker 2:No, and I don't think we're going to see each other on podcast duty for a while now.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I know we're going to have a little bit of a break, aren't we? I think probably it's the summer, it's the summer, yeah yeah yeah, I must say, your neck is looking a lot shorter this morning.
Speaker 2:It was looking. Look, I'm quite worried. Obviously it's an audio podcast. It's getting quite long. Is that an age thing? Does your neck get?
Speaker 1:longer when you get old? No, mine's longer than yours. You look a little bit like Colbert my tortoise.
Speaker 3:Maybe you're just developing the ability to kind of withdraw your head into your body, which is which would be quite a cool talent, wouldn't it Probably ought to explain for anyone to the podcast that me and grill I'm usually have a little bit of kind of chat in the sidebar going and yesterday he did say to me does my neck?
Speaker 2:look long. This is the problem with zoom.
Speaker 1:You spend your whole life looking at yourself and then deciding, worrying about all the things wrong with you, and I've decided my neck's a major issue so and I've worked out because I did, I did a little bit of um, I did a little bit of kind of testing this morning that my appearance that I've been on holiday is because the light is bouncing off of this kind of mahogany table and it gives me sort of like a mahogany glow If I move away from the table I go to a normal colour. I quite like looking as though I've been on holiday.
Speaker 2:You look like an extra from Dallas. It's a good look.
Speaker 1:Is that the friendly bounce done? I didn't expect that to be the friendly bounce.
Speaker 2:Anything else you want to talk about. I was going to talk about um summer plans, what's?
Speaker 1:your summer plans. Well, we've done the holiday. We popped down to cornwall a couple weeks ago, so so that's done. I've got a lot of work to do at home. I want to, um, put new doors on the garage and things like that. So it'd probably be a bit of a diy summer, I think, uh, and desperately hoping that the weather might improve enough to get a bit of fishing done, because every time I plan to go fishing at the weekend it just rains do fish not like rain?
Speaker 1:I don't like rain. Okay, the fish are fine with it, but I don't they're quite waterproof, aren't they? Yeah, they are. Are you? Is it Spanish summer for you this year?
Speaker 2:no, no, I'm kind of again been away a little bit. Either side of this. I have a theory that summer's nice in in the uk. It's a theory, um, but yes, so most, mostly it's um blackberries, because I love growing, I love letting all the blackberries grow in the garden and we've got kilograms of the things. So it's just, I'm just making jam all summer. If you want any jam, anybody want any jam on the podcast, anyone want any jam.
Speaker 1:I've got a lot of jam coming, a lot of jam yeah, I keen on jam, so I'd be very happy to take a tank off you.
Speaker 2:Well, we're catching up. I'll bring you some jam, yeah we are.
Speaker 1:Yeah, we are catching up in person, aren't we? Fairly soon Shall we crack on with the show.
Speaker 4:Lee Davis and Gwilym Roberts are the two IPs in a pod and you are listening to a podcast on intellectual property brought to you by the Chartered Institute of Patent Determination. Do?
Speaker 1:you like that. I've become a bit show-busy on the podcast. I call it the show now. Yeah yeah, like it's all kind of proper now. So we've been doing a run of IP-inclusive podcasts recently and this is another of those. So we're going to talk to the team from IP Ability about all the things that's been happening there since we had them on last, because this is a return visit to the podcast, certainly for the topic, if not all of the people. So let's get the guests on. Marianne, let's start with you. Hello, hello, hi. So do you fancy giving yourself a little introduction so people know who you are and what?
Speaker 4:you do. Yeah, so I'm Ariane Privett. I'm a patent attorney and partner at AA Thornton. My interest in disability? I'm an ally. I don't have a disability of my own that I'm aware of, but I've got personal experience, having grown up with disabled siblings, so they were both learning disabled. And then also my husband suffered quite severe back problems some years ago, which made me very aware of caring responsibilities and their impact on on myself as a professional um and as a parent at the time as well. So that made things extra complicated um. And then also my husband was later diagnosed with adhd. So again, a kind of an extra awareness of um neurodivergence as well.
Speaker 4:So, yeah, yeah and also I think it comes back to my awareness as someone who has grown up with um disability as being something at the forefront of my mind, that it's just not, and a lot of disability is not visible. I fully appreciate that, but I've I've, until recently I've been to the EPO plenty of times. I've only seen someone using a visible aid once, um, I don't know if Gwilym can remember think about that, but I've noticed one person with a walking stick in all the many, many years of visiting the EPO. Never seen anyone use a wheelchair, never seen anyone use like a white cane or anything like that. So I just thought actually our profession is far too closed off to a large proportion of population who could do this job just as well as I could.
Speaker 1:That's fabulous to have you on, marianne George. Let's come to you next. Welcome to the podcast, your first time.
Speaker 3:Yes, no, I don't think I've ever done a podcast before, actually.
Speaker 1:First time podcasting full stop. Well, we'll be very gentle with you, okay, thank, you.
Speaker 3:Thank you. Who are you and what do you do? I'm also a patent attorney. Unsurprisingly, I'm an associate at eip. I have asperger's syndrome, although it's not really called that anymore. I was diagnosed when I was 11, uh, by nhs, a psychologist. In brief, like asperger's is a form of autism. Um it, probably the most dominant feature for me is that, especially when I was a child, I found it quite difficult to socialize and understand, like non-verbal non-verbal communication, which thankfully, a podcast is mostly verbal communication, so that makes it a bit easier. Um, but yeah, I've recently joined ip ability. But, uh, I've been interested in sort of accessibility and neurodiversity in the ip profession for quite a long time, so I'm hoping to make a positive impact in that it's really cool to have you on, uh.
Speaker 1:And so my world's changed since the last time we did a podcast on sort of disability issues. Uh, I have a. I have a number of grandchildren, I've got number six on the way, but number four, who is just turned four, has just been diagnosed, uh, with autism I think it was. It was fairly obvious to us for the last couple of years that that was probably going to happen. So I'm learning all about it and it's actually, you know, it's, it's quite an exciting world to learn about.
Speaker 1:But it's been fascinating for me to um, to, to learn how to um. So theory's name is it's uh. It's been fascinating to learn how to communicate with him, um, because he, he struggles verbally. He doesn't have much um kind of ability on ability with language at the moment, but we communicate by blinking eyes to one another, which I found really early on. If I just wink at him and stuff like that, he winks back. We then kind of can play games and things. So, yeah, it's been fascinating for me to discover that stuff. And so podcast veteran now, chris, and actually SEPA veteran, because Chris does a huge amount for SEPA, not least regularly trains the staff when we have new staff come in on very, very simple patenting techniques. Thank you, chris. You do it with flying fish and stuff like that. It's an amazing session we do with the staff. Great to have you back, but you still need to introduce yourself, I'm afraid.
Speaker 5:Yeah, so Chris Clark, patent attorney in-house with Vectura, based in Cambridge. My interest in IP ability is because, a bit like Marianne, I have a son with a learning disability, so, as a carer, he's now 17 years old, so approaching adulthood.
Speaker 1:Well, you're all really welcome. As I say, this is part of a series that we're doing just catching up on IP Inclusive and its various streams. So where would be good to start? It's your podcast, what would be good to start? It's your podcast, what would be good to talk about first.
Speaker 4:Well, I listened to the previous episode this morning, which was from September 2024, so about four years ago, and I was just struck by the fact that we've done a lot essentially in that time.
Speaker 4:We've done a lot of awareness raising. One of the webinars that was mentioned in that was Kerry Russell was going to present on invisible disabilities and she really created this format where we had some kind of legal advice, as it were. So we had a, an employment lawyer, and then also an HR professional and then some personal experience, and that's worked quite well with us across a number of issues where we've tried to explain to employers. So I think it's helpful to for HR professionals within the IP profession as a whole to better understand issues related to disability, but also, obviously, for the people who are directly affected, for them to understand their rights, and one of those was the Carers Leave Act webinar, which Chris recently organised, which relates basically to the fact that we now, thankfully, have legislation in the UK that allows carers to take leave at no notice. I think Chris is that correct. They can just say sorry, can't come, come in today, I've got to look after someone yes, within some restrictions, but yes, basically yeah, within sensible restrictions, but yeah, and that's that's well.
Speaker 4:I'm sure you can talk about what difference that would have made to you. Well, as a parent, you always had some rights, but still going forward, being able to take leave as and when you need to, to be able to look after someone, it's going to make a huge difference yeah.
Speaker 5:So what we found when my son was younger was there was a maybe you'll get this leave with your grandson.
Speaker 5:There was a um, a constant stream of appointments with various professionals, you know, with doctors, with um sort of behavioral specialists, with with all with nutritionists, you know all sorts of people. Um that we went through um, because my son's disability had various facets, um, one of which was he eats a lot. Another one, which is a very short attention span. So we had, we had a whole bunch of interventions, particularly in the early stages, and that took a lot of time just taking him to appointments. It might be, I suppose, a little bit easier these days because these things might happen online to some extent, but we were endlessly going off to hospitals and clinics and things, and there was a time when both my wife well, essentially there was a period of time when either my wife or myself were working part time for a number of years in order to be able to accommodate that kind of stuff. So having the right as a, as a carer, to take leave for these things might have enabled us to, you know, not to have to go um part-time.
Speaker 4:Yeah, I mean available then but we've also covered a range of other topics as well. We've talked about sort of the stigma associated with disability, in a sense that it's um, I always think, when you look at the different strands of diversity and inclusion, that there are some things which are just visible. Um, not not always, but most. Most of the time you can tell, um, if someone's a woman. Most of the time you can tell if someone belongs to a certain ethnic group. But disability is kind of this, this kind of straddles it's. I think in some ways it it is more akin to sexuality, where you wouldn't know something about someone unless they told someone about it. Certainly, when it comes to neurodivergence, you don't know something about that person's neurotype until they tell you about it, and so I think, yeah, then there's a stigma associated with anything that's hidden. Essentially, you know, if you don't have to disclose, if it's not visible, it's not something that you can see immediately upon meeting someone. Then sometimes there's a stigma associated with that. And disability is unfortunately, I think, partly just by the nature of the word. It seems to relate to a lack of ability or not having ability, and that's not certainly the way that I see it.
Speaker 4:I ascribe to the social model of disability. I'm just going to explain what that means a little bit. So social model essentially means that it's society that disables a person, not whatever thing it is that is inherent to their health or their way of working, their way of brain working. So the reason that I believe that the term disabled is appropriate for neurodivergent people is because society is not accommodating to them. So it's not that there's something inherently, there's something different.
Speaker 4:There's not inherently wrong with anybody, whether that be because of some kind of issue with, I don't know, mobility they use a wheelchair or to do with their neurotype, that they benefit from certain adjustments, that the disability is not their own as such. The disability results from the way that society treats them, and so my kind of passion is trying to ensure that I can do what I can do to make our profession more accommodating of people, so that they're able to perform to the best of their ability and contribute in the way that they're able to perform to the best of their ability and contribute in the way. As I said at the beginning, I don't see any reason why someone who is blind, deaf, neurodivergent, in a wheelchair, whatever, why those people can't do their job just as well as I can. So it's just trying to make our profession as accommodating as possible and trying to encourage people to enter the profession from as wide a range of backgrounds as possible I said mean the social model is interesting.
Speaker 1:I used to do a lot of work when I was in further education around inclusivity. Inclusive learning kind of came out of further education colleges and it was a real keen interest for me. So I was quite an early adopter, I guess, of the social model.
Speaker 1:And actually, because you've talked about the other, well, really the other areas IP inclusive is active in, uh, so there are other areas where people kind of will experience barriers and by by making the the disability side of things the social model, it also aligns it much more closely with the other areas of um exclusion, I think, because by and large they tend to be cultural, societal reasons why people are excluded.
Speaker 4:I haven't thought in those terms. That's a really interesting point. Thank you, Lee.
Speaker 1:And it means I think it means that it's possibly easier to be an ally then as well, because you're not. You are trying to help people overcome barriers that society is presenting to them. You're not there as a health advocate.
Speaker 4:Yes, that's true, I'm not a medical professional and so, yeah, I can't help someone in any way in the medical sense. But it's interesting that. So one of the webinars we held was about language and we've leaned within IP ability. We've leaned quite a lot on lawyers within the law society. They have a disabled solicitors network and we've leaned quite a lot on them for panellists. You know, as you, as you know, ip profession is relatively small. Law profession as a whole is bigger.
Speaker 4:So when we want someone to talk about a particular topic, then we go, hey, do you know anyone who'd be willing to contribute to this discussion? So, yeah, so we had a couple of lawyers who both actually prefer not to be called disabled X. You know, they prefer to be X with this particular disability. So one of them had a visual impairment. I can't remember the other lady, but yeah. So they basically, both of them, said, although the social model they understand where the social model comes from they prefer not to be labelled as disabled.
Speaker 4:And so, yeah, because if you have a disabled person, you are saying that this is the person that is disabled. They prefer to be just themselves. Who happens to be someone with I don't know, visual impairment? In one case, and I've just come back from the States, and that very much is the language they prefer in the States, and you'll see that you would be assumed to have misspoken. If you say disabled person in the States, you have to say person with disability. So there's definitely all sorts of cultural issues there around the way that these preferred, preferred language has evolved, um, in different cultures separated by a common language. Isn't that the phrase for the us and the uk? But actually, yeah, I think your point is a very valid one, that it's, and I want to be an active ally. Then it makes much more sense to me to be an active ally within a societal kind of impairment or societal restriction than it does to try and be an active ally within something medical.
Speaker 1:So, yeah, Can I bring George in here? Because in terms of the way I talk about Theo and I don't know whether I'm getting it right I hope I'm getting it right, but I always talk about him. So he's been diagnosed with autism and that's the way I talk about it. I don't apply a label to him because he's a cracking little boy and he's going to have an amazing life and he lights up my life and he just happens to be diagnosed with autism and kind of together as a family, we work our way through that. Is that how it was for you, george? I mean, you were diagnosed at 11, did you say? Is that quite late?
Speaker 3:Maybe slightly. I think you know I'm'm 32 now, so we're talking 20 years ago. Like so things have moved on in terms of the general public's understanding of these conditions, and like so my parents thought I might have adhd when I was sort of younger was sort of seven, eight, that kind of thing and a doctor sort of proposed that I might have asperger's, as it was called then, and it took a quite a long time to be processed through the system and it wasn't until I was 11 that I received the bit of paper that explained me, I think, in terms. Go back to your point about, um, your grandson. I think you know it's perfectly fine to say you've been diagnosed with autism. It's a statement of fact. I mean, it's that's what the condition's called, that's what's happened. Uh, I think some people get a bit funny when you start saying oh, he's autistic I've never said that and I would be uncomfortable saying that yeah, exactly because I think it's the same reason like marianne was talking about.
Speaker 3:It's about labels and it's about encompassing someone in a box. You know it's. It's no, no more specific than that. It's not tied into the condition itself. I think it's, but it's particularly problematic for autism, because autism autism is such a variable condition, like people always talk about the autism spectrum, but I don't think people recognize that it's not just like a gradient from low functioning to high functioning. It's a collection of traits which some people express and some don't so like, for example, there's perception issues or perception differences.
Speaker 3:More accurately, so like it's. I often see it said that people with autism have a more raw perception of the world, so it's like they don't have their brain doing a bunch of processing on their sensory input before it reaches, you know, your conscious brain, and as a result, it's you have to deal with the more raw input and that might mean, oh, I'm more likely to notice like differences in things because my brain isn't just filtering out. But it might also mean there is too much visual stimulus. I can't see a pattern. So it's just, it's just different in that respect and it's not necessarily a disability, it's just. It may just be a difference in ability, but depending on how those things personally affect you, it may result in you being less effective at tasks, which might be a societal thing, as Marianne says, but it's just everyone's different in that regard.
Speaker 1:It was interesting. So I don't want to kind of make this about Theo, but just maybe just finish off my experience there. So from about the age of two, we were thinking there was probably something going on because he wasn't starting to talk. He's got two older brother and older sister. He didn't really have a relationship with them or anything like that. And then maybe two and a half coming on to three and we were at a family wedding. So my elder son's wedding, lots of children, and they've spent the whole of the time like that no one just knew what I did on the podcast.
Speaker 1:I stuck my fingers in my ears for the listening audience he spent the whole of the wedding walking around with his fingers in his ears because he couldn't process the noise, the sound. I spoke to his mum and dad after that and it was yeah, we've been aware for some time that he struggles with some kind of sensory overload, things happening to him and um and we're we'll see if we can find out what it is. And that's where we started on the the journey and it's so. It's yeah, he was only diagnosed, um, a couple of months back are you aware of the?
Speaker 4:um, the sunflower lanyard? Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, because I mentioned it someone the other day and they said they had no idea what it was. So, yeah, yeah, for those who aren't aware, the sunflower lanyard is a. It's bright green with bright yellow sunflowers on it. It's eye-catching. It doesn't have to be a lanyard, but the idea is that it's an outward sign that someone has an invisible disability.
Speaker 4:It's often used for children who are neurodivergent, just because for extra understanding. I think it started off I think it was Gatwick Airport, definitely started at an airport and the idea was that people who might need extra assistance there was a outwards visible sign to people working at the airport that this person might need a bit of help. But it gets used in all sorts of environments now. So it's an outward sign and for environments where children feel overwhelmed, then they're able to just signify to get better understanding. And certainly, growing up with my brother and sister although they well, my, it's complicated as to what who knows exactly what was in the mix there, so whether their sensory overload was resulting from learning difficulties or potentially some form of neurodivergence, but certainly there were times when my brother would have essentially a meltdown in public and I think if he'd been able to wear ear defenders, if he'd been able to wear a sunflower lanyard, you'd have hoped that people would respond with a bit more understanding and kindness, and sometimes they did yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1:So we've all been quite open about our own experiences, either, george, directly or, in our cases, um, living with family, family members who are, who experience these issues on a day-to-day basis. How does that translate into the sorts of things that you do with IP Inclusive? So I mean, clearly it's what's made the three of you kind of activists, if that's the right word in this space. What does that mean in real terms? What are you doing? What are the kind of really interesting things that you're doing?
Speaker 4:Well, one of the things that we've done is contribute to feedback around the exam. So, as a lot of the members of the profession will know certainly the younger members will know that there's changes proposed for the EQEs. We'll not just propose any more. There's going to be bringing in changes to the way the exams are working, and the EPO put out a sort of expression of a request for feedback on their proposals and IP Inclusive. We submitted a joint submission, but one of the primary areas that we focused on was disability and the potential for it to impact disabled candidates, and I think the way that the systems work at the moment is they have an existing system in place and then if a candidate has particular needs, then they will try and adapt the system to suit that candidate, whereas the ideal system is that you create something that has accessibility built in it from the very beginning, so you don't have to adapt something. There's no potential unfairness in having to adapt something that was made for someone who had no visual impairment, who had no dyslexia, had whatever. So yeah, and I have to give him a name. Check Abhishek Dhol is a candidate, so he's never going to be a candidate for the patent exams. He has no intention to do the patent exams at all, but he is a law student at Queen Mary and I met him at a Law Society event and I mentioned.
Speaker 4:One of my concerns was around the portal they were proposing using and if we could get someone who was actually visually impaired to test it. And he went, oh, I'll do it. And I went are you sure? Because, like you know this, you're never going to benefit from this. He's like no, no, it's fine, I've got nothing to do this summer, I'll play around with it.
Speaker 4:So Abhishek very kindly did exactly that and he confirmed that, although the portal allowed you to, to use it, to kind of use a screen reader, to to look around screen, as it were, and to choose your answers, you can then read it back and if you think how important it is that when you do an exam, that you go back and go oh, did I mean to say that, or is that what I wanted? So, yeah, we submitted that as part of the feedback and the EPO specifically referred to it and they're going to make changes to make sure that that's going to be possible for candidates in the future. So that was a definite win. I'm really pleased that they, the epo, are really going to make efforts to design their new system with accessibility from the very beginning, at the heart of it all.
Speaker 2:So, um, yeah, that that's, that's a definite win on behalf of all the people taking exams who might be sitting there thinking, gosh, the exams are going to change. I'm not going to be able to do them because of all these changes, but basically it's not going to be. It's not going to make any difference to the substance as such. It's to do with kind of presentation, delivery, that kind of thing.
Speaker 4:Yes, yeah. Yeah, it's all about making sure the portal they use, and the thing is that I can't remember the name of the portal, but they weren't using all of it. As with lots of software systems, you don't necessarily pay for the full package, so it's partly that the EPO didn't think they needed certain functionality. So they're not. This doesn't risk screwing anything up and it doesn't risk making it more complicated for all the candidates Not at all. It should make it a better experience for everybody.
Speaker 2:I mean you mentioned that since we last podcasted four years ago, you've seen lots of change and you mentioned, obviously, some of the kind of biggest statutory changes. Are you seeing a change in attitude? That's a really good example of a change in attitude from the patent office. Well, maybe that's pejorative to say it's a change but a an exciting demonstration of a positive attitude from patent office. How's that for diplomacy? But um, are you seeing other kind of increases of awareness within our, within our world, within our profession?
Speaker 4:what I don't? What do you think, chris? You've been around doing this for as long as I have um yeah I don't know I, I think a bit, I think it's.
Speaker 5:It's a bit more talked about than than it was.
Speaker 5:It's hard to remember exactly what things were like five years and four or five years ago. But my impression is, yeah, I think I think, just because of partly all the stuff that um andrea's done expanding sort of ip, inclusives, you know, adding new communities and so on there just seems to be a bit more of a perhaps more, more more kind of edi stuff being talked about generally. Um, it's become a bit more normal to talk about it, but perhaps it was a bit of an exception before. Maybe that's what I'm trying to say I'd like to think that.
Speaker 4:So celia mentioned in the previous episode that, um, she thought that there were dyslexic ip professionals who weren't open about being dyslexic. Um, I'm aware of a few who have come out, as it were, as as being dyslexic since that recording and I'd hope people would feel more comfortable at least within maybe not kind of outwardly with amongst the profession as a whole, but at least within their own, their own firm or within their own team. So, yeah, I agree, I think it's talked about more openly. I think there's we're I hope we're in a position where if anyone were to experience, it were to experience negatives from from their team or from a potential employer in relation to any form of disability or neurodivergence that they would, it would be clear to everybody, as it were, that they were in the wrong and that the candidate or the employee was in the right. I'd like to think we've at least got to that stage. But yeah, I think it's still tentative. I still think there's a lot of work to do.
Speaker 1:This actually is an interesting one, isn't it? And I'm sure it's absolutely fine for me to say what I'm about to say. If not, I'll think about it afterwards and maybe take it out. But I've had a number of instances where um people with dyslexia trainees have come to see her to for help not not generally with the peb exams, although I know that we could be doing better there but I think in the past generally we've tried to be as supportive of people as we can. But but with the, with the EQEs, and there seems to me to be, uh, there's this thing, isn't there with Europe, and that's that not.
Speaker 1:Not everybody sees EDI the same way yes and in one particular instance where I went to the EQE secretariat around dyslexia, a person had been giving given additional time one year and then the next year they had to prove again that they still needed that time and the response I got. The response I got was but they might have got better and that's and I know it's just a cultural thing, it's a kind of perspective thing, isn't it? And, and you know, we perhaps in the UK we've been more open and we've discussed these things more, but but, yeah, the sense that they should have recovered by now.
Speaker 4:I had. So I'm a member of the examination committee for paper C, which will no longer exist soon, but the opposition paper for the moment and I went to a celebration in Munich, which is the one place I did see someone with a walking aid, a mobility aid, at the EPO. But I was there and it was yeah, it was a review of kind of the history of the EQEs and how things have evolved and looking forward and they did have a presentation on adjustments and on disabled candidates they supported and the secretariat. They were perfectly nice about it. But then afterwards, because I'd spoken up so I was clear that I was invested in it, I guess two German guys behind me, who were both examiners, turned around to me and went.
Speaker 4:Why were they had been put, as it's all online now, they'd been put in a assigned a group of candidates who all had dyslexia and I guess it makes sense to put everyone together because they'd rather have someone leaving early, other person leaving late, anyway. So, yes, they put all the candidates with dyslexia together and they went. Why were they all British? And I went. Well, maybe we diagnose it better than you do.
Speaker 4:I don't believe that British people are more likely to be dyslexic. I think we are more supportive of our candidates, more supportive. I said don't you have people who have dyslexia at school? Don't you have people who have dyslexia at university year at school? Don't you have people have dyslexia at university? And they went, they kind of you know, kind of went and thought about it for a moment. You're like, seriously, like you know, we I think, yeah, we have a long way to go in this country, but they're unfortunately, I think, um candidates who benefit from this even more in other countries, um, within the epo. So, um, yeah, it's, it's, it's a big issue to deal with.
Speaker 1:I'll I'll restrain myself to dealing with the uk mostly for now, but I think the other thing that we do and we were talking about kind of praising governments earlier I think this probably goes back probably goes back to brown, um, kind of end of blair brown that was carried on into cameron, and that's we legislate yes qualities. Yes, we, you know we. We take the time to think about the law and the way the law can support people, and I just think we do that better than other countries.
Speaker 4:Yeah, I mean I don't. I don't have a law degree, but I will say that I love the Equality Act. I love the way, having read it, the fact that it makes it clear. You read it, it's written in plain English. It makes it clear that it's intended to support people, that these are people who it definitely kind of ties in with a social model disability. The way it talks essentially about, about being able to remove barriers, essentially that if the if there's something that's preventing someone from being able to access something, whether that be employment or a social activity or whatever it is, that, yeah, that there is an obligation to remove that barrier to help that person participate I I am.
Speaker 3:I just wanted to add something about the reasonable adjustments quick, because I had them and did use them. So I'd sat the exam with the EQEs in 2019, the full EQEs and requesting them was relatively straightforward, but I definitely got the impression that was because I had a bit of paper that I could point to. I had my official diagnosis paperwork that I could scan an email over to the secretariat to say I need this, and I got the impression that, you know, they gave me what I wanted. Like there wasn't like one of the things I had at university. There was very much.
Speaker 3:I'm like you have this condition. This means we'll give you this, and whereas the secretary I was like, no, I'd like use of a computer an extra time, please. Very much is yeah, 2019. Before that was common and they said, yeah, the only thing is you've got to come to munich, um, which actually, given that I live, uh, you know, in hertfordshire, was actually easier than me going to warsaw in, uh, near birmingham, because I'd have to go all the way down on the train and back out again.
Speaker 3:So flying from luton airport to munich was actually more favorable for me to know how to stick in a in a hotel on my own rather than with my candidates.
Speaker 1:It wasn't that year in Warsaw that we had the Beast from the East as well.
Speaker 3:Yeah.
Speaker 1:It was cold.
Speaker 3:I was surprised it went completely smoothly in the end, apart from I had to. The only thing was it was the same venue that I think a lot of the Germans just use for the exams in general and we were just like the people with extra who need extra help in a room and like there was. It was interesting because you said that it's all Marion, that you said it was OC British people. I guess maybe that's just for dyslexia, but because I had people from who German people, who are Dutch, and we had a nice conversation about how our national exams all differed from each other. But yeah, but it was, yeah, I'd say, like a sort of pretty even spread, I guess.
Speaker 3:But I think one thing that has improved is the fact that you know we're doing these things online and I think, going back to the original point of how has the profession improved, like in working with at least from a neurodiversity point, is I think at least ADHD is kind of more recognized, like I think you know we're still doing a lot of work to kind of push that.
Speaker 3:Like I think you know we're still doing a lot of work to kind of push that. But I think I know a few attorneys who are who are ADHD, and I definitely got the impression like, as we've moved forward, that they've gotten more help or that their conditions were more recognized or they're more. People are more willing to sort of work with them, to work the way they want to and to maintain their effectiveness, whereas when I was a trainee sort of you know seven, eight years ago I kind of felt like it was just a maybe it's just because they were trainees and it's just like a trainee just get on with it. But maybe, whereas now it's, the people are more understanding and more willing to adapt work to make get the most out of people we've talked to us with a key kind of constituents in our world.
Speaker 2:We've talked about our employers and we've talked about the patent officers and you know, I think there's improved awareness, is good and people are really trying to make changes. I know we're not there yet at all, but it's it's. It's nice to hear, I think, there is change since four years ago. The other one, at least for the private practice element of this group, is, of course, the client. Yes, and is it okay to ask how one manages that side of it and how it's gone?
Speaker 4:are you referring to whether I'm aware of clients who are disabled or whether you're talking about kind of how we yeah, well, maybe, maybe, george, you've got I've done.
Speaker 2:I hope I'm not prying, I'm just interested, you know, do you kind of mention to the client, or does it not their business, or how does it play out?
Speaker 3:um, I wouldn't say I think I've ever actively disclosed to a client that I have, like autism, mass pressures, what have you like it's? It hasn't come up. I guess it's the simple point, like we normally focused on them and what their needs are, and like I'm there to help them ultimately, not the other way around, and so it's not been as necessary. I think the only time I think I've ever had a disability conversation with the client was I'm also red, green colorblind and I said is there any chance you can send me this graph different? Because the jpeg you've sent me I can't edit the colors myself. You know I can try and run it through a color filter, but I mean you've sent me 30 figures.
Speaker 3:This will take a while to do. If you just change your color schema on excel, this will save me two hours of work and you know, in that way I disclose the disability. But obviously colorblindness doesn't have any kind of stigma attached to it compared to the neurodiversity. So, but I think in the context where I had to make it clear that I needed help from them to make my, my and their life easier, because it was, you know, effective making the bill cheaper, um, it made sense, but I think I wouldn't be opposed to it because you know, obviously I'm publicly disclosing, happy to publicly disclose of my condition, but until it becomes relevant it's kind of I personally wouldn't see a need to.
Speaker 2:Thank you, that's that's. That's really helpful. I hope I wasn't prying, I'm just genuinely interested. If it ever comes up, you know. Yeah, okay.
Speaker 1:So it's interesting. I keep talking about stuff that I know about. So it's interesting. Uh, I keep talking about stuff that I know about I don't know the colorblindness thing and how it can impact and you do have to tell people. So grill and we'll know this because we had him on the podcast a few weeks back, future son-in-law, probably kyle football shirt collector man as has two forms of colorblindness, so you'll know this better than me, george, but he has, if I get this right, he has pro protein opiate and triton opiate. So he's red, red, green and blue yellow, I think. I think this is the way I understand it. So he, he has to tell people up front that he's got color blindness because he just might be putting the wrong titles up yeah, it's a problem like so I'm deuteranopic, which is like the classic red green colorblindness that most people are familiar with.
Speaker 3:Uh, I inherited from my mom.
Speaker 3:It's an x-linked recessive uh trade yeah, I know all about that yeah, um, whereas, like my, it's funny because actually my brother and my dad have a different form of colorblind, as you say. So they've got the one set and we've got different sets, so it's like we're speaking different languages when we're talking about colors. It doesn't, it doesn't work well, especially since you know color has no inherent quality, it's a qualia, it only exists in the brain. It's like so what is red? Um, yeah, but yeah, I think actually I'm quite interested in the color stuff in our profession because we often use like color coding systems.
Speaker 3:I can remember when I was at marx and clark, colors corresponded to countries and you know that was back when we had physical files and that was very much present thing. But you know, europe was green and rest of the world besides, like japan, us, was orange. I really couldn't tell the difference at first glance. I would very much have to look, and I think one of the things marianne was talking about how software needs to be designed with accessibility first in the forefront of the developers minds, and I'm really big on that, you know, for colorblindness, for neurodiversity, for everything so what?
Speaker 1:what can we expect next from ip ability? What's, what's, what's on the horizon?
Speaker 4:well, we had one um coffee morning. That was really popular and it was really nice to get engagement from people who were not our regular crowd, as it were, were in attending our webinars. So we'll definitely be running more of those and you're planning a webinar, chris, you're planning.
Speaker 5:Well, what we're trying to do. We've done a couple of things on. We did a webinar on the Carers Leave Act this year and we did one, a similar one, a few years ago, about carers rights, and those have both been run by ip ability. But obviously care, there are people in with caring responsibilities in other communities and and you know across the ip profession as a whole.
Speaker 5:So just people parents caring for young children, for example, or or people caring for elderly parents, and so on. Um, so we we'd like to do something around caring, but not just within the context of disability, something, something broader across the whole of ip inclusive. So I haven't quite worked out what the format of that's going to be yet. I probably need another conversation with andrea about it. But yeah, hopefully something, um, something around caring in a more general sense that's great, and we've also got um an in-person event coming up.
Speaker 4:Um. So loretta I'm not going to say her surname, wrong, sorry, but yeah, I think this is loretta dimek menkitelli. She's a new member of our committee and she's keen to do, uh, something around women's health issues, so she should be running that. I think it's going to be in the autumn. I think they're still figuring out dates, but that should be in the autumn cool.
Speaker 1:Well, it feels like.
Speaker 2:Oh no, gwen was about to say something no, I was actually just going to um reflect you extended your neck in that kind of positive way.
Speaker 2:I was just reflecting on the. You talked there, chris, about caring, and I was actually reflecting on caring in a slightly different sense possibly, which is that we had a very interesting podcast which will be going out, um, with, with, um, the, the iPause team, um, and I think, again, you know, as an ally and one of the lovely things about this podcast, by the way, is the amount of allyship that I've discovered I have. That I didn't know until I started talking to all these different groups, but as an ally there I was asking, basically, what is the right to say? How is the, how is the right way to um, to raise it, how to be supportive without being offensive, which I think often is we might, you might call the ally dilemma. I really want to help, but I might offend you by offering it.
Speaker 2:So what do I do? Which had a lovely response, I thought, which was be kind. It was an incredibly useful piece of advice, actually really simple, but actually the right one. I mean, would you, would you kind of echo that as a, as a good starting point for the allies to to?
Speaker 5:Yeah, I think so. I mean, I think I certainly would, if anything's well-intentioned, even if it's perhaps a bit clumsy. I wouldn't be offended by that the first time anyway. Possibly the second or third time.
Speaker 4:Taking people at their word as well, rather than I found it upsetting if I was quizzed about stuff. So if you say I need this because of that, and someone then turned around and went, oh, but couldn't you do this? Instead, it'd be like no, I've thought about this. I've reached this decision for the. In this case, I'm thinking about my caring responsibilities. I've reached this decision on the basis of what's best for my family. I don't want to have to further justify it. So it's yeah, take people at their word. If they say they need something, then say okay, how can we help you with that? Rather than are you sure or have you thought about doing this?
Speaker 1:Right, I'm going to try and do what I was going to try and do earlier, gwilym, and bring us to a close, because I'm just conscious that you know I have to do this. It's just a horrible bit of podcast. I'm the that we kind of need to keep it to a length that people will actually listen to, which is important. So either if you've listened to the podcast or if you've been on before, you know that we try and end up with a closer. I'm going to recycle a closer because it just feels the right thing to do, but I'm going to try and frame it differently. So I think the last time we talked about issues around ability, we ended up with like a superpower question what would, what would you want your superpower to be? I'm not going to do, not going to do that one. So what? I'm going to ask you, william, and then you three need to get ready for this because it's coming your way what ordinary ability that most people have got that you don't have, would you love to have?
Speaker 2:well, it is actually just to have a normal conversation without trying to work out um, I don't know if might be an indicator, something I should be looking at and have a normal conversation without trying to be really really funny and exciting every time, because I'm not a and b. I think it exhausts everybody else. I'd love to just talk about stuff like normal people. I don't know how to do it I can.
Speaker 1:I can empathize with that because I think I do the same, don't I? I have exactly the same trait to just try and make things funny when they don't need to be funny I'm often getting it completely wrong or not being funny to my um specialists straight.
Speaker 2:Those don't know.
Speaker 1:Those are superpowers so let's, let's do george. But if that's okay, george, do your next. But what one thing would you love to be able to do?
Speaker 3:odd. That's a long list. Um, I I don't know. I think probably for me, like, as I get older I get better at conversation and I think, you know, as a child I was very incapable of having normal conversation and like, I think it's mostly just experience and because I'm a learning focused person, that I just get better at it, and you know we all do. It's just experience. But I think the difference is for someone like me, I have less of an intuitive grasp of it. So I guess for me it would be let's just give you more of an intuitive grasp of how to actually talk to people, rather than having to figure out, offend a bunch of people by saying the wrong thing and then going hmm, I feel like a normal person would have maybe not made as big of a mistake on this good one, chris oh, I'm really struggling.
Speaker 1:Lay um you don't have to answer, it's just a fun thing to do in the end of the book.
Speaker 4:Perfect as you are, chris.
Speaker 5:Well I'm then I hesitate to say it, but perhaps I am, I don't know maybe, maybe you might want to be more humble yeah, maybe chris is very humble.
Speaker 4:Chris and I have worked together for a couple of years and it's been so easy. It's really lovely. It's really nice. You're very pleasant to work with.
Speaker 1:God, I spoke over you. Then, chris, you were going to say something.
Speaker 5:I'd forgotten what I was going to say, lee, sorry.
Speaker 2:I can say something for you, Chris.
Speaker 5:Welcome to welcome to my life. I've had to do this 150 times now. It's exhausting, absolutely. I'll tell you what I am going to say and it's got nothing to do with the podcast, but it's a very exciting day for me today and maybe there's some way you can work it in. The third edition of my book on the science of ice cream is being published today, so I've got to get out of that third edition.
Speaker 1:If you had said it earlier on, we could have an ice cream themed closer.
Speaker 5:That would have been the way to go.
Speaker 1:We'll definitely get it in. We'll have a link to it, chris. We'll do that.
Speaker 2:I've got Chris's one, then. Which is why can't I just enjoy ice cream for itself, like normal people?
Speaker 4:I didn't know this book existed. Chris, I'm going to have to get a copy.
Speaker 5:Oh yeah, it's a throwback to my my former life as an ice cream scientist before I became a patent attorney. So first edition came out 20 years ago.
Speaker 1:We are going to have to have a podcast on the science of ice cream. I think you should.
Speaker 2:I'm a colleague whose dad does chocolate science and he does all the fancy chocolates you get.
Speaker 1:Oh yeah, do food science. We've got a podcast, marian. We've got a podcast, marianne. You've had lots of thinking time.
Speaker 4:I wish I wasn't so clumsy. So yeah, I wish I was a normal level of non-clumsiness.
Speaker 1:And mine is a bit like that because I was reminded last Friday when I played football why I stopped playing football. So you know, I'm quite sporty, I love a run, I play squash and I think I'm reasonably good at it. I'm quite coordinated, kind of. My arm goes, but my feet, my feet and my legs seem to be unable to take commands from my brain, because I watch people playing football and I was playing with them and they're doing all these things where they move their foot over the ball and all this sort of stuff. If I tell my feet to do anything, generally I do anything. Generally I fall over when I'm playing football. That's why so so yeah, I love the legs to be less clumsy and I'd like to be able to enjoy football and I don't more.
Speaker 1:Heads to foot coordination yeah, yeah, and you know I'm not a tall bloke. It's not because my feet are a long way away from the control. Is it separate brain in your ass?
Speaker 2:no, none of that oh, thank you.
Speaker 1:Thank you all for coming on. It's been, it's been lovely having you on this bit. It's been great to talk about a topic that is so important for people in such an kind of authoritative, kind of confident way, but also with a bit of fun so that. So that's been really good. So thank you all for coming on. Lovely to see you again, gwilym. It'd be nice to not see you for a beer in a week or two's time, aren't we Beer and jam? And just to say, if you've listened to the podcast and you've enjoyed it, then leave us a little review somewhere, because that really helps people find us and we want people to find the podcast, that's it, we're done guys, thank you, that's a
Speaker 2:wrap Thank you.