Two IPs In A Pod
Brilliant inventions, fresh product designs, iconic brand names and artistic creativity are not only the building blocks of successful business - they deliver a better world for us all. But these valuable forms of intellectual property must be protected in order to flourish. We are the Chartered Institute of Patent Attorneys - the UK's largest intellectual property organisation. Our hosts Lee Davies and Gwilym Roberts chat with entrepreneurs, creatives, patent attorneys and the occasional judge about how patents, trade marks, designs and copyright can improve our lives and solve problems for humanity.
Two IPs In A Pod
with... IPause
Join Lee and Gwilym as they sit down with Jane Wainwright from IPause, the latest initiative by IP Inclusive. This episode dives into the critical topic of menopause, focusing on how it impacts professionals in the intellectual property field. Jane shares invaluable insights on the support and community IP Pause offers, emphasising the importance of awareness and understanding in the workplace. Whether you're experiencing menopause or supporting someone who is.
You can find out more about IP Pause at: https://ipinclusive.org.uk/community/ipause/
Good morning Gwyneth. How are you this morning?
Speaker 2:I'm aching.
Speaker 1:Lee, you're aching, I'm aching. Oh, I misheard that. I thought you said you were baking. First of all, I thought you were baking your bread, but Aching bad.
Speaker 2:Aching bad, aching bad. Why are you aching? Oh, as I mentioned in the pre-chat, I've got myself a personal trainer. Personal trainer yeah well. Trainer, personal trainer yeah well. Yes, I go to the gym and I always do the same thing and it's just making no difference at all. But I thought I'd get a personal trainer because then they'd make me do different things. And I'm now massively resenting him because it's achieved exactly that and I've got to do different stuff and I don't like it. It's not familiar and it hurts is that the key?
Speaker 1:you need to, because I go to the gym regularly but I do the same stuff over and over and over again, and the key is to do different things. So if you could tell me what he's told you, then I don't have to go to the expense of a personal trainer, if you don't mind doing that quickly.
Speaker 2:I'm really happy to share. It's all about your glutes, Lee.
Speaker 1:Oh yeah, no, but I play squash, mate, so I don't have to worry about my glutes. Oh, trainer, let's see about that, because it turns out that you think you've got great glutes and they're weedy and they don't fire properly. How does that that hurt I? I can tell you without any sense of doubt or hesitation I have amazing glutes. Okay, right, right, it's time for a glute off. Interesting thing about squash it's the moment you don't play for a little while. You realize how much you want your glutes the next time you play, because you can't sit down for a day oh right, okay, so uh.
Speaker 2:Well, I'm interested, um, but I thought let me get you on a squash call.
Speaker 1:Let me get you to see my personal trainer so this sounds more like a midlife crisis than anything else. Is this, is this? What is this? What's happening?
Speaker 2:it's a bit. It's not going to the gym doesn't have the same impact. It doesn't change things the way it used to, um, but mostly it's more about just mixing it up, as you say. I mean the fact that I can basically watch an entire netflix series without noticing that I'm in the gym, just perhaps I'm not really pushing it and you can't do that when you're playing squash.
Speaker 2:I agree, this is true, this is true lee davis and willem roberts are the two ips in the pod and you are listening to a podcast on intellectual property brought to you by the chartered institute patent attorney okay, so should we crack on the podcast now?
Speaker 1:you've you've bared your personal training, sold Bared me butt to problems, okay, let's. So we've got Jane Wainwright with us today and we're going to talk about, I think the menopause is what we're going to talk about, and how IP Inclusive has started to bring that into the broad portfolio of matters that it of thinking about in terms of the IP professions. Jane, welcome to the podcast. I hope I got the introduction a little bit right.
Speaker 3:Yep, yep, yep. I'm a little worried that I can't actually top all that discussion of glutes and personal trainers and butts, but you did interestingly mention midlife crisis, which kind of ties into talking about menopause and and some of the things that happen in midlife yeah, yeah, yeah, I'll say that for a reason I know no names, because it would be terribly unfair, but I was.
Speaker 1:I was in a meeting and, um, and it was about kind of support. The women need the menopause. And a guy in the meeting said, um, are you going to give that support to men as well, because they go to the menopause? And it was like, no wait, you go through a midlife crisis. Uh, it's what.
Speaker 2:It's what you go, it's what you go through, yeah I think recognizing that your glutes are a bit skinny is a slightly different story.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, but buying old french convertibles and kind of thinking that you're 18 again and which is by which, is fine I'm not sure that's limited to men, to be honest.
Speaker 3:So, james, welcome to the podcast.
Speaker 1:Um sure that's limited to the men, to be honest. So, james, welcome to the podcast. Can you introduce yourself to the audience? Is that okay?
Speaker 3:Yes, absolutely so. Yeah, hello everybody. It's an honor to be on the podcast. So I'm Jane Wainwright, I'm a biotech patent attorney and work at Potter Clarkson. But the reason I am here is because I've been heavily involved and I'm now leading the newest of the IP inclusive communities, called IPOS, which was designed to support people in the IP profession and businesses in the IP profession on how to deal with all of the things that come associated with with the menopause.
Speaker 1:So you're going to have to help us out here, cause, um, so Gwilym and I are blokes, you may have noticed. Um, uh, so obviously we know women. You know, uh, I have personal experience with my wife's recently, or is still currently going through the menopause, so we kind of experience it. But even when you try to be supportive, you still feel like you're doing it from a distance. Is my is is my experience. Yeah, so help us understand where. Where do we start this conversation?
Speaker 3:yeah, I mean, I think that's a really interesting point on the basis that, yes, it is women or people that were assigned female at birth that go through the symptoms of of menopause, um, but actually everybody is impacted by it.
Speaker 3:You know somebody that has gone through it, is going through it or will go through it, or you will go through it yourself, um, so it is something that is really important to to understand better, and I actually think that in some ways, it's it's less about supporting the, the women who are going through it, and actually about educating the people that need to support them.
Speaker 3:So I mean the very, very quick description of what what menopause is is that?
Speaker 3:Um, it is the menopause itself is the strict end of ability to bear children from a hormonal and physiological point of view. The period running up to that, which is when the majority of people get symptoms, is called perimenopause, which is actually when most people would need to have support, is actually when most people would need to have have support, um, but you, you'll still find that, um, after the menopause, after the point of of not being able to bear children, comes that there are still symptoms and still things that that women and and those assigned female at birth have to go through um because their hormones have changed um. So one way of thinking of it and it's perhaps a little bit easier for men to understand that don't go through this themselves is you think back to puberty and think about all of the changes that everybody goes through then, from a child to becoming a teen and an adult. For women, that's effectively a lot of those hormones almost being switched off again, or they're not switched off, but they they're balanced differently.
Speaker 2:So it's kind of almost the reverse of that in some ways so it can be similarly difficult, both physically and mentally oh, I think, yeah, at least people can have got the peripheral experience of it. But in the workplace um, maybe diving too deep too it. But in the workplace, um, maybe diving too deep too quickly. But in the workplace, what are the? Where are the problems coming in? What are the kind of issues that are arising?
Speaker 3:well, perimenopause with with with the symptoms that people experience this. There's over 40 recognized symptoms that are associated with it and no woman gets every single one. So you, each person, is individual in terms of the symptoms that they will experience and to the extent that they will experience them. So when it comes to the workplace, um, there isn't really a kind of a set way of of addressing it or dealing with it or supporting it. Um, so some of the symptoms include kind of brain fog and inability to concentrate.
Speaker 3:We can understand how that in a workplace can be really really difficult to cope with, particularly if you are on the attorney side and you need to concentrate really really closely on thinking about technical arguments and legal arguments. Or even for patent attorneys in the European Patent Office, in an oral proceedings, suddenly losing your train of thought because technical arguments and legal arguments, or even for patent attorneys in the european patent office at non-oral proceedings, suddenly losing your train of thought because you can't, can't focus, is actually really really difficult. So that's kind of an obvious, obvious area where it impacts on the workplace. But things like the common symptoms people know about in terms of hot flushes I mean the way that people experience that is, you suddenly overwhelmingly feel extremely hot and your skin tends to feel like it's almost crawling and that makes it very difficult to concentrate, and you will sometimes experience a woman or somebody going through a hot flash in the office and you can kind of often go on um for long chunks of time.
Speaker 3:So the actual perimenopause symptoms can go on for 10 years and so people can experience some of these symptoms, all of them to different levels, for 10 years of their life and the age typically is 45 onwards in terms of when perimenopause starts. That's realistically, um, the most productive and experienced years of someone's life, um, so actually you're starting to see some of the best people in the profession um, suffering with quite debilitating symptoms so that they can't necessarily do their job as easily and as well as they they used to, um, and that is it's very difficult for a lot of people to get their head around, including the people that are suffering the symptoms, because you kind of go from being amazing at what you're doing to feeling like a gibbering wreck or that your, your life is falling apart.
Speaker 2:Or you see women leaving professions ip profession and other professions because they honestly think they're having kind of a mental breakdown I was going to say the impact on one's own confidence must be highly debilitating, especially, as you say, when you pride yourself on parity of thought and you know our job is getting into bundles of documents and not losing focus for hours on end. So suddenly, even if it's when it's not happening, presumably you sit and think, oh gosh, it might happen again and whatever yeah, and there's definitely a level of kind of consciousness for for women, of that that, oh, it might happen.
Speaker 3:and then I think for some women that anxiety triggers some of the symptoms as well, so you get anxious about it, you trigger a hot flush which makes it happen, which makes you more anxious, and you get into a quite a vicious cycle. Um, and it's, it's. It's something that people don't traditionally like to talk about, and it's only recently that in the general public it has become more acceptable to talk about it. And that's where we're coming in in the profession with iPause is trying to make it OK to talk about it for the people that are going through it and suffering and to help educate others so that they can make accommodations and just understand that, yeah, your colleague might just need five minutes to leave a room, to leave a meeting, just to go cool down, collect their thoughts and come back. It's not that they've suddenly become stupid overnight. They are just suffering with something that is quite hard to understand if you're not going through it yourself um, a couple more questions.
Speaker 2:I've got lee and I can, yeah, no quick comment. This is interesting, so, um, so, even some things to you know. So we talk about being allies a lot on this podcast. We had a good chat about that, the last one we did actually as well, you know, and you know that's all we can be in these circumstances, and so learning to be a good ally is something I think that I mean, I think this supports a lot. I think it's what you're doing to certain these parties, obviously helping the group, but the rest of it is helping the allies help the group. So there's some hints there about kind of what to look out for. And from the ally perspective, first of all, one of the issues and it might be a very British thing is, you think, I think I know what this is and I'd like to help, but if I mention it I might say the wrong thing and really offend the protagonist. So what's the advice to analyse? How can you raise this, because you could put your foot in it terribly.
Speaker 3:Yeah, I don't think you need to ask the question of is this the menopause? I mean you can see how some people might take that as quite offensive and age related, age-related, um, but just asking the question of are you okay? Um, do you need, do you need, five minutes just to to grab a glass of water or offering to glass grab a grab a glass of water. Or when you think somebody's having a hot flush, you don't need to kind of shove it in someone's face, but just trying to be kind I think is actually the simplest way of doing it. And then when you are line managing somebody that you think maybe maybe experiencing symptoms and struggling because of it, having a quiet conversation and saying are you okay, is there anything you want me to be aware of? Much like you would talk about something like mental health. Um, yeah, there's a, it's in a similar bucket and it's actually kind of how I got into to being interested in and trying to focus on menopause was from the mental health side.
Speaker 2:So, being able to have a conversation but not not making it embarrassing and shameful that just being kind and being human is probably the best way of dealing with with somebody I can see that and in terms of you mentioned accommodations, in terms of, you know, dual five minutes, dual middle break, any other kind of accommodations that we're seeing quite a lot of, any other processes?
Speaker 3:Yeah, you'll see, some firms have got menopause policies, so there's some ideas around how they can be treated, and time off and flexible working to accommodate symptoms. Um, you see, you see some some companies putting in place like a menopause cupboard, um, and that'll have things like some handheld fans in it and, oh, wow, so for a hot flush, yeah, and just to cool you down. I mean, particularly in in open plan environments nowadays, which a lot of us work in, you don't have control over the temperature that you're sitting in, and so things like that, some handheld fans, some cooling, cooling blanket kind of things in case blankets in case somebody is very cold because of it. Um, so just little things that could be helpful. A cupboard doesn't need to be. Everyone knows where it is and they can just go and get what they need and then pop it back.
Speaker 2:And for the, if somebody is suffering one of these hot flushes again. I've talked about how to be a good ally. Any hints about how you kind of signal to people what do you say, how do you, how do you raise it, how do you start the conversation?
Speaker 3:um, it is difficult because clearly somebody that is is having a hot flush is probably very focused on themselves and and, um, how they feel, and feeling quite shameful. So I think I think the conversation is very much about being kind in the are you okay? What can I do to help? Glass of water, could I? Can I fetch you anything? And almost just being an invisible ally is is actually a more helpful way of dealing with it, in my experience at least so, jane, I wanted to explore a wee bit about um, the group, the community within ip inclusive, and where that's going.
Speaker 1:But before before we do that, you you intimated when we were doing a little preamble bit before we started recording, that you might have some questions for us. What would you normally ask of people like me and Gwilym or men would be another way of describing us, I guess.
Speaker 3:Well, it's not, it's not, it's honestly not just men, it's. Anybody that has not is not going through it or is experiencing it. I mean. A question I like to ask people is how comfortable do you feel talking, talking to to women or those that have been assigned female at birth? About, about menopause?
Speaker 1:so I I'd like to think that I'm okay, I don't know, it's not.
Speaker 1:It's not something I get tested on very often, because the, the c-prof is, is the staff are quite young, generally, um, and tend to move on fairly early in their careers. So it's not, it's not something I can't say, something that kind of occurs frequently here, um, but, as I say, do a personal experience, um, in kind of like my own family life, um, so you start to learn a wee bit about it there, and I do think that we have quite an open sort of office in seaport in any case. So it is, you know, we, we do talk, we do talk about stuff. So, um, yeah, the this morning we were talking about um egg donation came up, um, I don't know why, it's just one of those wild things that you start talking about in the office, and that led to a menopause conversation, um, because, and I learned something, um, so I learned something about the trigger of menopause this morning.
Speaker 1:I wasn't just before we started the podcast, because I was trying to remember what I learned in human biology. My memory of human biology was that why am I even telling this story? Where am I going with this? So it was that men, until they physically get incapable of doing so, they're permanently creating sperm. So sperm is something that's been always created. Women are born with all the eggs they'll ever have and those diminish over time, obviously through the monthly cycle, and then it's the time when kind of eggs are no longer being released that the menopause starts. I didn't know that it wasn't something I'd ever stopped to consider until the girls in the office were talking about it this morning. So we do have those conversations, but interesting, not with people who are going through it, just just generally, because it's something we're interested in the office. So I think I'd be okay. I think I'd be okay is a very long answer to that simple question, sorry, I mean I, I can answer, I'm a catastrophe.
Speaker 2:But I really care and I take it super seriously. But with all of these things it's just a me thing. I'm not very good at asking what I consider to be questions of someone else's private business, so I feel like I'm intruding. I'm terrified as you may have picked up from my ally question earlier I'm terrified of getting it wrong, which is also a bit like you know. You say you want to see, I can see you're pregnant and I say no, I'm not that kind of horrible moment when you get it terribly wrong, um, and I sort of live in fear of that.
Speaker 2:So this is why I think and I don't think maybe not that unusual in the patent attorney profession as well we are quite private people. I think sometimes we're not the, we're not famous extroverts. So I think that guidance to our lives is actually really, really important. Once somebody opened up to me and said this is something I'd like to talk about, I'm totally comfortable. So it's starting that conversation with being honest that I would, I would struggle with, and it's not a menopause thing, it's almost anything, just almost anything. But again, maybe not that unusual within the people who kind of do our jobs.
Speaker 3:So I think that's interesting, that it demonstrates that different people have different levels of comfort based on different experiences in their life and their personality. But I think, from the kind of the ally point of view, it keeps coming back to that, just be kind and don't make assumptions like you're not pregnant, you don't make the pregnant assumption, but do you want to see it? Without making that assumption? And the same goes for the, for the, for the menopause things is asking if somebody wants a glass of water, if you think they're having a hot flush, or if you see somebody, um, looking like they're struggling for words, suggesting having a coffee break, so that they without necessarily um, um, shoving it in their face.
Speaker 1:So I mean, I think their workplaces are I don't know, I've only got this workplace and those that I know in terms of patent attorney firms seem to have come a long way in a short time in terms of being at, being able to have these conversations. I think the, the push up, the push around mental health has clearly helped us, hasn't it? You know, it's okay, it's okay to talk. In fact, it's good to talk, um. So so I'd like to think that the general direction of travel around a range of topics, uh, that that people otherwise previously could talk about in the workplace, would just mean that it would be more easy for um, for women who are going through the menopause, to um to talk about it at work.
Speaker 3:Um, yeah, I think there's generational things to it as well, that for most women that are now of that age, um, their, their mothers didn't talk about it. It was just kind of hidden away. So, yeah, I think we are probably the first generation that is properly talking about it, um, and so the the environment helps us do that. Um, people like davina, um, all of the stuff that she's done on TV and in books Her menopause book is a really good read for anybody, whether you're a woman or a man, or young or old. That's a really, really helpful resource, so that's well worth the read to somebody.
Speaker 2:I think we nearly got to kind of what I pause is up to, and then we went sideways into your question to us, which is there was a great question, but yeah, so I pause. I mean we begin to see of what we kind of knew anyway, but it's really clear why it's needed and it's really important group to be out there and have visibility. What are you guys up to what? How are you kind of um pushing things forward?
Speaker 3:yeah, so we're doing quite a lot of different things, um, so we have a number of resources which we gathered together. So there's links to resources all through the ip inclusive um website and so anybody can go on there find the the right resources um that that can help them with various various aspects, whether it's the mental health or managing symptoms or better nutrition, and recordings of some of the sessions we've done. And we've done some sessions, particularly on nutrition and and thinking about all of those factors around us that might, might impact on menopause. So things like the chemicals that you take into your body through eating, drinking or just breathing they can impact some aspects of the hormonal systems. So we've got copies of recordings are on the website as well, and probably the most popular thing that we do is just the coffee dates and it's just literally opportunities for people to get together and to share stories and to kind of talk about what they've been going through, what's worked for them, what's not worked for them.
Speaker 3:That feeling of you're not alone is a really big thing, and we did a survey of what our community wanted from us and that was the thing that really shone through was just that support.
Speaker 3:So, um, we're just kind of thinking about what we're going to be doing for the rest of the year, but definitely want to be putting on more, more and more of the coffee dates for people to have their support, thinking about trying to do some kind of buddy systems as well, so that we can kind of almost like set up a mentor and somebody that might want more information or want some support, so more one-on-one kind of support for those that perhaps aren't really keen on talking in a in a group environment, and we're going to put on some informational sessions. Um, we want to look at one about um hr law, employment law and menopause and um menopause it's really difficult to categorize because it's it's. I don't think most people would want to call it a disability, but actually the definition of a disability in law is a condition that gives symptoms that could impact your day-to-day life for 12 months or more, and clearly perimenopause going on for 10 years could easily class as a disability.
Speaker 1:And it feels to me that, whether you class it as a disability or not, it's clearly something that we're an employer to make reasonable adjustments. Yes, exactly. So we want to do a session about that and get an HR specialist in to.
Speaker 3:So we want to do a session about that and get um an hr specialist in to be able to help do a bit more education, or for both sides, for the individuals that might want the accommodations, but actually for the businesses, and so well, actually you need to think about that reasonable accommodations might be, might be appropriate to do, um. So they're kind of what we're doing. Uh, we've kind of gone, we've thought about having a session for men, um, and talking about how men can be better allies and and getting experiences from men in terms of of how they've supported people or trying to support people. So there's lots of things that we're we're planning on running over the next next few months, um, and they're all in the process of getting set up and things will be?
Speaker 1:do you need more bodies on the ground? Do you need more people kind of volunteering, coming forwards and saying they want to do stuff?
Speaker 3:um, we have plenty of people on our committee and they're willing to do stuff. What we what we would really like actually is more is more people to get involved from the perspective of coming to the sessions, coming to coffee dates and being willing to share. Also, on the IP Inclusive website, we have a section where we've got menopause stories. We've got a variety of videos and blog posts where people actually talk about their experience of menopause. So having people that are willing to perhaps record a little video or some audio or just write some some, some thoughts down about what their experience has been, um again, it just helps people understand they're not alone and thinking about allies gives them something to look at.
Speaker 3:That tries to explain a bit better how it affects people personally. So there's a few already on the website. But, yeah, if more people are willing to come forward with their stories, that would be really great. So we have a website on IP Inclusive. There's contact details on there. We've got our own email address, so the plug for that ipausecommunity at gmailcom. So please do drop an email.
Speaker 1:We'll make sure we put all of this in the little blurb that goes with the podcast, so people can get the links directly.
Speaker 3:Great. So the more people that get involved, the better. And then we have some men come to events. So but more men come into events to learn would be would be really great.
Speaker 1:I feel inspired to come. It's made me want to know more. Yeah, excellent. Yes, I've been quite active since the start of IP, inclusive across all of the communities, but but not this, and I should be.
Speaker 3:And it's not just about women. It really isn't, and I think one of the things that I think would be nice to do for it is to then start to think about androples and thinking about male menopause, and there's a lot less scientific evidence around it, um, but joking about um midlife crisis, earlier there is. There is something behind all of that, whether it's just a psychological thing or a physiological thing. So I think there is scope for starting to expand in the future to support men on what they go through as well.
Speaker 1:So, jane, we're coming towards the end. I used to sit there thinking, oh really wish we talked about that. Is there anything we've not covered that you think that? Um, we perhaps should do before we close?
Speaker 3:another thing is I think we've I think we've covered what's really important that this topic matters yeah, yeah, really much and it matters to everybody.
Speaker 1:Um, simply because we all know at least one woman so we always try and close the podcast off a bit upbeat, um, and, and usually that means I've come up with a really clever um question to ask willem at the end, and then we share with our guests. Um, but he's beaten me to it. He did pop me a little thing in the chat saying oh, I've got a closer, so I've no, I've no idea what's coming up now. So apologies in advance, jane, we're just about to um, so go and ask me a question.
Speaker 2:Um, we'll then pass it your way, and then I will surprise guillem by asking it back to him thank you and uh, so don't worry, this isn't too silly, because sometimes silly can trip over into unkind, so I'm very keen to keep it. But actually, the other thing you mentioned about um, and then you're gonna come up with a second example, but you mentioned about how, when your mum had awful problems dealing with menopause at the time it was just not talked about. It wasn't a thing as a result of which it got it escalated terribly, and I've got lots of examples, I think, of how things have got better in that kind of sphere. Do you have another example of how things have got better since that kind of era of denying almost all human emotion and all human interactions being something you could talk about?
Speaker 1:Hang on. I'm not even sure I understood the question. I need to find an example of how things have been, how things have got better.
Speaker 2:Come on how things have got better since those days. You can do it.
Speaker 1:It must be something that's got better since that era I would like to think not something I suffered myself, I'm going to go really morbid. It's better, not worse. It's meant to be a happy moment. No, no, no. I think through recent personal experiences, but kind of distant experiences about bullying at school, I think has probably got better, not as in more people being bullied.
Speaker 1:There's lots of videos on how to do it. Now it's great. So, because I wasn't particularly brilliant at school, but I know a lot of people who were um and how kind of isolating it was for them, and now they've carried that through most of their lives and and I know from, most recently from my two girls, experiences of being in school that sort of thing tends to be get. Once it surfaces, it tends to be dealt with quickly and reasonably well, has been, has been my kind of closer experience recently. Yeah, so I I would say schools are. I think schools are much, much better. In any case, you know, I used to get beaten up in the showers by the mad p teacher who used to cut the top off of a basketball so he could hold it and hit kids as they went to. Just surely that doesn't happen in schools anymore. So so maybe, maybe, just generally, we're kinder to children in schools than we were in the 60s and 70s. Gwilym might be my answer.
Speaker 2:There you go. Very good, thank you, lee. Well played. Jane, have you got anything?
Speaker 3:I'm pretty sure that we weren't supposed to be beaten with a basketball back then either. Yeah, the good old days. Eh, I mean, I think from my perspective, I think the fact that we are just sitting here now talking about topics like this, that would not have happened, and I think that's an amazing thing, that we can sit here and have a conversation about it and have a bit of a joke about things, but be serious about it and know that actually all three of us and every one of our listeners, actually all it all they want is to to make things better. That, for me, is progress so let me shock you.
Speaker 1:Um, but we both know this works. You wouldn't have asked that question if you didn't have a stunning example. So, um, we both know how this works, because I do exactly the same. So come on then. What? What's, what's improved dramatically in your experience?
Speaker 2:It's not stunning, but actually back to kids, actually I felt when I was a kid growing up that the seen, not heard thing was still a really important part of a kid's life. And I've got all these memories of going to see people who I thought were really old, probably younger than me, actually looking back, probably younger than me actually looking back, um and not, and I'm just absolutely still and not say anything and really being horribly undervalued and just in trouble almost for moving. And I love the transition that we've seen as, as you know, as a bunch of kids, basically I love the transition we've seen in that little area there, an unusual kind of cross-generational improvement, I think, in the relationships and the importance attributed to the kids in social environments and going to visit people. And I raise it because I remember it really vividly as being a horrible part of my life. Seeing old people was terrifying. I do think that's got better and I think that's a good thing.
Speaker 1:Yeah, definitely, Although it's not necessarily a challenge that, but something again recent experience I've been to a couple of family weddings recently, not necessarily, close family weddings, but family weddings where children weren't allowed.
Speaker 3:What's that about what? Why would you not want children at weddings?
Speaker 2:that's pretty common nowadays it is, yeah, and there's big things like pubs and cafes, whatever, just saying this is a no child zone, and I actually my my wife gets really cross about that. I get a bit cross about it, but actually think there's also a place where there's no. Just be without kids and do your own thing and that's not a problem. I don't really want to be there either. Um, so I can kind of see that I wouldn't want to bring small kids to something like that. A lot of people. I mean, let's be clear. I mean it's not my own kids, everyone else's kids are awful. I didn't did I mention that bit sorry, it's usually the other way around people say their kids are awful and everyone else's kids are amazing.
Speaker 3:I have so many children.
Speaker 2:There's every chance that you would have at least met one so we've had.
Speaker 1:We've had one other half on the podcast so far, but I know it's only a matter of time oh, jane, thank you so much for coming on, and uh, so no, william and I were quite nervous about this, but I think we've. I've really think. I've really enjoyed the conversation. I've learned stuff and I'll go away better informed as a result of it, which is and hopefully people listening will do the same. So thank you so much for coming on.
Speaker 3:No, absolutely my pleasure. I'm glad that you feel more informed and more comfortable.
Speaker 1:Willem. Thanks for your company again, mate, as ever. Pleasure. We'll see you on the next one, mate, but before we go, we'll just remind the listeners, of course, that the easiest and quickest way for us to grow our audience and this doesn't sound like a proper podcast, does it? The easiest and quickest way for us to grow our audience is for you to leave us a nice little review on the podcasting platform of your choice, so that people who are looking for particular keywords and phrases will find us. Thank you,