Two IPs In A Pod
Brilliant inventions, fresh product designs, iconic brand names and artistic creativity are not only the building blocks of successful business - they deliver a better world for us all. But these valuable forms of intellectual property must be protected in order to flourish. We are the Chartered Institute of Patent Attorneys - the UK's largest intellectual property organisation. Our hosts Lee Davies and Gwilym Roberts chat with entrepreneurs, creatives, patent attorneys and the occasional judge about how patents, trade marks, designs and copyright can improve our lives and solve problems for humanity.
Two IPs In A Pod
Black History Month and Modern Narratives
Join us as we explore the intersection of professional achievements and cultural heritage with our special guests, Josh McLennan, a European patent attorney, and Nikkei, a technical director and diversity advocate. Discover how the Chartered Institute of Patent Attorneys is embracing democracy with an upcoming presidential election, a decade since the last contested race. Our guests share their unique journeys in the fields of patent law and engineering, offering insights into the importance of diversity and inclusion within these industries.
The episode takes an introspective turn as we examine Britain's complex race relations history, from past economic motivations behind policy decisions to the resurfacing of racial tensions today. We tackle the critical need for open conversations around systemic inequality and the role of allyship in creating lasting change. Through a mixture of personal anecdotes and historical reflections, we invite listeners to engage with the past and its influence on our present and future, underscoring the importance of continuous learning and connection.
Lee Davis and Gwilym Roberts are the two IPs in a pod and you are listening to a podcast on intellectual property brought to you by the Chartered Institute of Patent Attorneys.
Speaker 4:Hey Gwilym. Two podcasts in a row, one after the other. This is quite cool. Two podcasts in a pod. Two podcasts in a pod. Have you done anything exciting since yesterday?
Speaker 2:I think about four hours between them or something. So no, no, no, no, I didn't. I can absolutely say no, I didn't do anything.
Speaker 4:Something exciting has happened in the world of SEPA since we recorded yesterday and these will actually go out out of sequence, so this podcast will go out before the one we recorded yesterday, because that's how things work in the world of podcasting. We've launched the election for SIPA president for 2026. How exciting is that?
Speaker 2:It is Well, it's not that often contested, was it quite a few years?
Speaker 4:Yes, it's been 10 years since we last had an election for CEPA president, so we don't do it very often but, as I keep saying, I think it's good, it's healthy, to have an election. I think you know CEPA's in terms of the work that it does for its members. We've done all sorts of amazing things in the last few years CPTPP. We've withstood a pandemic, we've navigated Brexit, we've helped our members through the launch of the UPC, so we're doing some some really, really big stuff at the moment. So I think it's quite nice that the members get the opportunity to have a little think about who their next president will be and have a say in that.
Speaker 2:I think it's nice that people are fighting to get the job.
Speaker 4:That's also kind of a new thing. When are you going to do it, by the way?
Speaker 2:It's a democratic process.
Speaker 1:I don't know. It's a democratic process.
Speaker 2:I don't know. It's up to the voters, isn't it? Oh no, when are you going to stand? I'm going to stand. I think I've got a couple of years in me yet of actually, you know, learning the ropes Still learning the ropes.
Speaker 4:If you don't become president before I retire as chief executive, I will feel deprived and cheated.
Speaker 2:It's up to the voters Lee. It's up to the voters Lee.
Speaker 4:It's up to the voters. So crack a podcast. Today we're here with two guests because we're looking at Black History Month, which is why the timing of this one is important. It's why it'll go out early in the series, so that we time it with Black History Month, and should we get our guests on, would that be a good place to start. Let's yeah, josh, do you want to go first?
Speaker 5:Yeah, of course. Hey, great, great to see you guys. Uh, so my name is josh mclennan. I'm a european patent attorney about to take my uk exams in less than a week, so busy cramming. Yeah, thank you. Thank you, um. And yeah, so I work in norway, um, for a firm called honza patent bureau. I'm currently based in. Yeah, I've been in the profession for five years.
Speaker 4:The Norway move is a fairly recent one, isn't it?
Speaker 5:Yes, yeah, yeah. So I used to actually work with Gryllum, which is fantastic.
Speaker 4:I'm understanding that you would run away to Norway. That makes absolute sense.
Speaker 5:I moved about, yeah, about a year and a half ago now. I moved first to Stavanger, which I don't know if you've. I'd never heard of Stavanger before I decided to move there. Um, and it is a kind of it's a relatively small city, it's like 140,000 on the west coast of Norway.
Speaker 4:So, yeah, just ready for a bit of a change and, yeah, I was there for about a year before moving across to Oslo and there's um, there's, there's starting starting to be quite a community of UK patent attorneys in kind of Nordic countries and we're very excited because we've got our first Nordic regional meeting in a few weeks time.
Speaker 5:Yes, yes, yes, I'm so excited, I think, that it took me a while to figure out what the difference was between Nordic and Scandinavian. Oh, can you explain it? Because I'm using I think I can, I think I can. So Nordic includes Denmark, norway, sweden, finland, also Iceland and the Faroe Islands, whereas Scandinavia is just Sweden, denmark and Norway. Ah, got it.
Speaker 4:Okay, so I think I'm using the term correctly, then yes, yeah yeah, we went for as broad as possible.
Speaker 5:That's hence the Nordic yeah, so really excited. That's going to be in Oslo in about a month now, so yeah, should be good fun.
Speaker 4:Lovely to have you on the podcast and also we've got a returner to the podcast, so obviously we didn't put her off too much last time. Nikkei, welcome back to the podcast, remind us who you are.
Speaker 1:So my name is Nikkei. I am a technical director at a company called WSP, which is an engineering consultancy where I lead a team of telecommunications engineers, and I am also chair and co-founder of the Association for Black and Minority Ethnic Engineers UK, and I wear many other hats which I won't talk about just now.
Speaker 4:Thank you. Thank you and welcome back to the podcast. Have you done anything exciting since the last time you were on? I did see that you were promoting on LinkedIn, so big up to you for that.
Speaker 1:Yes, yeah, I don't think I've done anything exciting. Yes, yes, yeah, I don't think I've done anything exciting. I've just done what I well, what I've always done, which is just carry on trying to make it and I know this sounds a bit but make a change and make a difference in the world of engineering and just showcase that you know there's not just me. I think one thing that we've done is we had our big annual conference in April at the Kiwi Centre and that was just an amazing, amazing event.
Speaker 1:We had around 600, 700 engineers in that space and you know, most people come to those events and think, well, I've never seen so many diverse people. We had people from all backgrounds, that people at different levels, so professionals, students, uh, you know people that retired even um in that space. So yeah, that's. I guess that's one of the most exciting things I've done since, uh, the last time we spoke, oh, wow, welcome back.
Speaker 4:So, william, um not to put you on the spot, like we've not actually said much yet, where, where do?
Speaker 2:you think we should start? I think we should start with the history of Black History Month. So how did Black History Month itself begin, and then we can talk about Black History Month.
Speaker 5:Fantastic. Yeah, I actually wrote an article about this a few years ago, but I'm literally trying to scrabble through my memory bank. But I seem to remember it began in 1960s, 1980s, maybe, nikkei, maybe you can help me out here and I'll have to check it out myself.
Speaker 1:I think it's 80s.
Speaker 5:I don't think it's the 60s yeah yeah, and initially, I think an important thing to mention is that initially black also covered people from other minority ethnic backgrounds, um, so mainly people from visible minority ethnic backgrounds, and over time it's kind of become, uh, people of kind of african heritage. But it's important to say because still many people from non, with non-african heritage, still celebrate black history month and it's important to say that that's also valid what do you think the impetus was for kind of starting off the whole movement?
Speaker 1:Well it was about, as I understand it, it was about celebrating the. I think it was to do with the abolition of slavery and it was about kind of celebrating that renewal and it was more of a Caribbean kind of celebration within the UK. It was all about that, but it was started off by someone from I think I think I'm not 100%, but I think it was started by someone from Ghana that come to the UK and had decided that this was a thing. When you asked about Black History Month, I was thinking I don't actually know when Black History Month starts in America and how long it's been, because it's um, I think I think they were before the UK Black History Month. They celebrate their Black History Month in February, for example so I think they were doing it before the UK even started.
Speaker 1:Now I need to find out about uh how and why they did um start.
Speaker 2:But yeah, that's uh that's it it's a bit meta asking about the history of black history month, so sorry I heard about.
Speaker 1:I mean, someone talked about it. Um, I attended something recently and someone talked about it. That's the only reason why I know. That's the only reason why I know anything about it.
Speaker 4:Otherwise, rather than the history, can we talk about the importance why? Why is it important, did I say?
Speaker 1:or do you? Yeah, I just kind of feel like I was talking so yeah, yeah.
Speaker 5:So I I think black history month is important because it just keeps racial issues on the agenda. Of course, for me, black history is not just confined to one month. The black history is my life. So I think it's important to have this kind of beacon every single year where people are reminded of our existence because still in some industries, still in some spaces, there are not many of us. I think it's changing. I think things have definitely improved over the past 20 years to some extent, but definitely from when my parents were younger, things have radically improved. But I think it's still important because we've still got so far to go, still got so much police violence against people with African heritage in the UK and that until that goes away and until things are truly equal, I think we'll still continue to need Black History Month. But I look forward to the day when we no longer need it. But I think it will continue for the rest of my life at least. I don't know what you guys think yeah, no, I have to agree.
Speaker 1:I think black history month is every everybody's history number one. Black history should be celebrated as part of uk history, I think. I think I think it's important because, as josh was saying, you know there are still stereotypes of what it means to be black. I did a talk yesterday talking about why we started AFBE and how it was linked to primarily, the stereotype around the prime minister at the time saying that black culture was responsible for knife crime in London in 2007.
Speaker 1:So it's really important that we continue to share our stories and I really like the theme this year around reclaiming narratives because I think it's about us taking control and telling our own stories and showing the power that we possess to make a difference and to make change happen. You still go online and you know I'm often not looking for trouble, but many times I still go online and I find people saying black people didn for trouble, but many times I still go online and I find people saying black people didn't invent anything, and so on and so forth, and so months like this opportunities to showcase the rich heritage we have, the things that we have done, and to give people a moment of just appreciation of not everything you hear on the media and that is negative is actually true. So yeah, for for me it's really important and, as Josh said, I think we will continue to celebrate Black History Month until we all realise it is part of all our histories.
Speaker 5:I think I also want to add on top of that what you said about reclaiming narratives is so important, I think, up until kind of internet and people being able in some ways to distribute their own information and express themselves and other people being able to hear it. If you go back 100 years ago, it's much more difficult for black voices to be heard, and so the narratives which I kind of I learned in school are ones in which there is a kind of long history of printed media, and that's not necessarily black. You know, there is some black history, but what black history is spoken of in in these kind of old books and encyclopedias and the rest of it is a very, very particular view. So I think we're still kind of at the beginning, in some ways, of uh, being able to reclaim the narrative in a way in which, um, yeah, we'll hopefully be beneficial for, um, like the next generation I mean it is really interesting.
Speaker 2:I studied history up to a level. It's pretty unusual for a pattern of turning. Actually I don't remember why, but obviously it's all the history books are written by the people who write the history books, and so you therefore, what you learn, what the history learns, dictated by the people who write the books and what they write about.
Speaker 2:So, for example, I did study quite a lot of history about kind of Africa, but it was all from complete white colonial perspective of you know who had a war with who in Africa, rather than anything about the actual history there. And so, yeah, I can, I can tell you. So I didn't learn anything about actual black history at any point during it, because that's not what it was in the books and so, as you say, the narrative kind of the narrative controls what you learn.
Speaker 1:So it doesn't, it doesn't need shifting, yes yeah, yeah um, the other day we had, uh, we have a. So as part of AFB we have a black history month quiz and I usually challenge people to, and we had the the black history month quiz amongst the board members and you know even things that people you'd assume people would know um sometimes and they don't know because that's not what they've been exposed to, that's not what they've been exposed to, that's not what they've been taught at school and so they don't know. For example, we had one about the particular technique that we use within engineering, called the court process, which was actually a process that was by a guy called I think it's Henry Court I'm not 100%, but that's C-O-R-T, that's his name and he stole this technique of processing iron from the Caribbean. So he'd stolen it from Jamaica and what he did was that these slaves in Jamaica at the time had brought this technique. They come from West Africa and had brought this technique and they were using it to process the iron.
Speaker 1:And what he'd done is that he'd stolen that process, come to the UK, presented it as his own, patented it as his own, and it's still called the process up until today and up until I think it was two years ago there was an article in the Guardian that talks about what he actually did, which was still that process burn down the factory in Jamaica so that there was no record of what he had done, and presented it as his own. So you know, you will find out about those sort of things as his own. So you know, you'll find out about those sort of things. One, it gives us a sense of pride in what those people had to go through and what they had to. You know what they kind of created. They created all these processes and these things and no one actually knew about it, and so I'm glad that there's Black History.
Speaker 4:Month because we can share those stories, stories, uh, particularly inventions for from people of black heritage. So I have a small experience of this which, um, I don't know, I've probably not even shared it with william. So before are you getting a bit of echo from me? Because I could hear a bit of echo from me now? Okay, cool.
Speaker 4:Yeah, so I used to be the regional secretary, district secretary of the workers educational association thames and solent, which is the thames and solent district of the wea, which is, uh, has always been really into community outreach, education and reaching perhaps groups of people who are disadvantaged in some way. So we had lots of centres. We had centres in southampton, um, particularly in reading and and I'm talking now late 90s through to the early 2000s, and we would celebrate Black History Month. We would particularly celebrate it in our centres, and for me as a white person and for other white people who were able to go along to these events, it was just an amazing learning opportunity and not just about the history as you were talking about it there Culture, food, art, entertainment, all of those kinds of things that I otherwise wouldn't have had a perspective on. So I think I would argue it's as important for people from outside of those backgrounds to be aware of it and be involved, as it is for people within them to celebrate, because for me it's just a fantastic learning opportunity.
Speaker 5:Yeah, I also want to actually add on top of that, and so my dad's dad is from Jamaica. My dad's mom is from the Seychelles. My dad was born in Bradford, in the north of the UK, but a lot of this kind of black history, black culture, was not passed down to him, so what that meant is that my mom is white, grew up working class in Bradford as well, mainly Irish ancestry, and so I kind of, I guess, grew up in a bit of a black cultural vacuum. I, you know I'm learning so much stuff about kind of African history, caribbean history, um, kind of african history, caribbean history, even like black british history, things which were not part of my kind of normal learning experiences growing up. So, uh, lee, as much exactly as for you, you know you're learning things from the very beginning as well. Like I, I'm also in that camp.
Speaker 1:I think it's all of us actually. I think that's the importance and beauty of Black History Month actually, because I think it helps us reflect on those and actually learn. Because, for example, I only found out on QI that there was a state in Nigeria that had streetlights before most parts of the world. I found out on QI. I was quite embarrassed this is, this is, this is, and you know, um, you know, I, I kind of pride myself in I, I learn about things, I know about things, I read about things, but I, I didn't know. So I think we're all on that journey of learning and regardless of how much you were exposed to your history and your background and stuff, I'm now kind of trying to do a family tree back, you know, to find out who my ancestors were and you know, find out.
Speaker 1:Actually, some of my ancestors ended up in Haiti and so on. Uh and uh, and I'm Nigerian, so, you know, you kind of think, okay, this is interesting, um, so I think the reason why I'm saying this is I think I think we're all kind of all on that journey of learning and finding out that we are. We are one, we're all connected and, two, finding out the rich heritage where we've come from.
Speaker 5:Um, so, yeah, I think it's a really important thing how is it that you're looking out for your, your family tree? Have the records been digitalized, like in in nigeria, or is it more a case of you know, calling someone to go and they?
Speaker 1:go to a particular parish, yeah, okay, people to ask questions, uh, pestering cousins, uncles, aunties, pestering people, just because I want to make this tree and kind of understand what my heritage actually is, because it's an interest of mine, because you watch, you watch all these programs and you know all these celebrities go on these programs and they you know, I feel a bit envious, and of them when I you know, when they say you know, I know, you know links to this and that, and I'm like I have no idea.
Speaker 1:Actually, for me it's kind of piece, trying to piece together as much as I can because you know, as you know, um in in in Africa in general, in general they didn't document in terms of paper. They told stories and stories were passed down from generation to generation and if you're lucky, if you have someone that is really elderly within the family, then they probably know way back when who was connected to who and who married who and whose child who is. So, yeah, just trying to piece it together. It's uh, it's been interesting.
Speaker 2:So far I'm not there yet, but yeah, what's the reaction from your family when you you phone up and say I want to start hearing about your aunties and uncles and they're saying what are you doing, or they get really interested and get engaged.
Speaker 1:I mean I think I've got a, a family that's already really engaged, so everyone's like, oh really, oh, that's interesting, good, but it's all that's interesting. Good luck, yeah, let us know when you have it.
Speaker 5:I went through a similar process, actually during during COVID. Um, I started to try to piece together my family tree, but often basically only a few records have been digitalized in jamaica and most of it is just calling people and go, then going to particular churches and looking at the church records to see who was married there and so on and so forth. So after I don't know, it was much easier to kind of go down my mom's side of the family because things were generally documented and all scanned in and digitalised, which was really, really helpful. But it's a bucket list thing of mine to generate a family tree of both sides of my family and figure out what's going on there my only reference point, and I can only imagine how difficult it is, because I did mine during lockdown, I think, oh you did.
Speaker 5:Yeah, oh, wow I mean.
Speaker 4:I mean, as you'll guess from the name my, my background is welsh and that was that was tough enough, but not because records were difficult, just because there was so much inbreeding, I think. And I think I think I'll leave it there. Okay, I've got a great story to tell about it. I'll tell next time we're in the pub. I'll tell you about the difficult lineage that I discovered, ok.
Speaker 5:Is it more of a family circle than a family tree? It's a family circle.
Speaker 2:Yeah, also not for too much detail, but I find that about my great grandmother on one side and she had quite a lively life. A lot of kids. Anyway, another story, story, another day um I was actually going to go back in the case.
Speaker 2:That's okay. You mentioned about the kind of, I think, in the ip, what we call the traditional knowledge. It's quite a nice link actually, but you've got these kind of technologies or often it's medicines and things from areas, and they've been appropriated and taken away and I think one of the benefits I'm getting the feel of raising this awareness is that action is now being taken. I mean, you can't get the steel process back, kind of thing, but certainly on the medical side they're calling it biopiracy now, which I think is a good, honest name for what can go on.
Speaker 1:Yes, that's right. That's right. I think you know. To be honest, it just it hurts all of us not to know. I think the idea that someone takes someone else's invention or creation and calls it their own hurts all of us, because it takes away from the heritage of one person and makes the other person, gives the other person an assumption that this is their heritage and when it all comes crashing down, when people realize actually, um, it's difficult to take um because you've all your life you've you've thought of this as part of what you did and what you created, and to find out it's not actually the case. It's. It's damaging to everybody and I think I'm glad that people are looking at that now and I'm glad that these things are being exposed for what they are, which is, as you say, piracy.
Speaker 1:This is what they really are?
Speaker 4:I thought you were just about to speak. I'm sorry, I didn't want to cut breathing. I was mouth breathing, sorry we've talked about your experiences and things that, um, that you do generally. What sort of things happen during black history month? What, what, the? What sort of the big ticket stuff that people should be looking out for?
Speaker 5:I. I think in-person events number one, um, just so you can go and connect with other people who are interested. You meet allies, you meet also other people with african heritage as well. Last weekend here in Oslo, I went to a lecture by a British professor about the history of pan-Africanism. That was just such an interesting event because, be frank, like being someone who's not white, living in a predominantly white country, living in Western Europe, you're always to some extent going to be a minority. So going to that event and you know, were black people a majority? No, absolutely not. Black people are about 20% of the event. But still, to see so many allies and it just makes you feel more comfortable and like people care, um, so it's, it's good to also, yeah, connect with allies as well as um, as well as like minority ethnic people. Yeah, what do you think?
Speaker 1:I think. I think quite the same. I think in-person events are so important. But also this year we decided as AFBE that we were going to do a weekly series on different topics. So we had our first one on intersectionality, the second one on allyship, the one tomorrow is actually on the ethics of ethnic diversity, which talks about some people like to call it the history of racism because it talks about, it makes us realise that racism hasn't been around forever. It's only about 300 years old and it only started based on certain kind of situations that led to it. And then I'm doing the last one on the 30th of October. Then I'm doing the last one on the 30th of October, on understanding the barriers of barriers for people from diverse backgrounds within engineering, barriers for recruitment, retention and progression. So we this is the first year we've actually decided to do something definite Black History Month, because, as an organisation that represents black and minority ethnic engineers, that represents black and minority ethnic engineers, we specifically were quite careful not to say, you know, have everything within black history month, so that people thought, okay, that's the month to engage with this organization and then we don't have to worry for the rest of the year. So so, yeah, so we, we do that.
Speaker 1:But we also had a very interesting um round table on allyship. Um, because, you know, um, when george floyd happened, you know, everyone was talking there's black squares and so on and everywhere and then, uh, the race riots happened and people came out and showed amazing support to say, you know, we don't want this. And then after that everyone's kind of forgets about it until the next thing happens and then everyone is, you know, raising awareness. So we had this roundtable around how we can keep the momentum kind of going around these topics. And they don't. They're not just topics, they're parts of things that we do on a day-to-day basis.
Speaker 1:So an ally you know, oli, co-founder of AFI, and also my brother often says that allyship is a battle scar, not a badge often says that allyship is a battle scar, not a badge. So understanding that and just keeping it kind of that conversation going all throughout the year is really important. But, yeah, those events, there's also actually an event we're taking Black History Month into November, so on the 1st of November, because, yeah, we are having a Reclaiming Narr narratives, our showcase. So it's everything from a lecture to panel to party, because, yeah, that is also part of our culture, um, that we're hosting. So, yeah, that's obviously, uh, a time to meet in person a lot of people and just have those conversations as well.
Speaker 2:I want to pick up, if I can, on allyship. You both mentioned it, lee mentioned it as well. Uh, he's one of the most helpful words I've come across as somebody you know who's not from a particularly well, that's not for a diverse background at all. I'm from a nice, comfortable, privileged background where everything's been really quite easy and I, I accept it and I'm very lucky and I realized just I begin to realize just how lucky I am through meetings like this and discussions like this.
Speaker 2:We're having a session on allyship, just kind of quickly promoted, actually through IP, inclusive in November. Um, check it out on the website, uh, where we're talking how to be, how to be a good ally, because I think it's you know, from my perspective is the best way it's the best way I can provide for not getting so. I feel like I'm almost intruding sometimes. I want to help, so quick guidance. It's not a bad about the scar. I like that. What do we need to do? What's what does good allyship look like?
Speaker 5:yeah, I, I think good allyship looks like emotional intelligence, just being there for people and just being curious. You know, I think everything kind of stems from a genuine feeling. Yes, there will be times when things are awkward, but if you feel awkward, you know, feel free to just ask someone you know, state how you feel, say you know I feel awkward around this topic. Is there anything you think I should be doing which I'm not, or likewise, or, you know, just keep the conversation flowing. Don't feel like you have to kind of, uh, keep everything in for fear of being exposed, as you know, a non-genuine ally. I think it comes across very, very clearly when, when someone is genuinely engaged and just wants to help out another human being.
Speaker 1:I think that um yeah, absolutely agree with what josh has said, specifically around the lack of comfort. You know, allies um often are uncomfortable and that's okay. I mean, uh, you know, and that's okay, because I don't think people say that enough, but that's okay, but it is actually okay.
Speaker 1:Um, there's a, there's an allyship continuum I don't know if you've heard of it by a lady called jennifer brown. It's called. It's. It's a kind of a, a chart of a progress journey and obviously you don't want to, you don't want to mark yourself against it, but it starts from apathy and goes all the way to advocate. So you start, an ally will start from a place of you know like okay, and then awareness, being aware of the issues, and then becoming active and then becoming an advocate. So it's a, it's a journey, and you know we can all be allies as well to other. You know we all have some level of privilege in a different space, so we can all be allies.
Speaker 1:But that alliance of continuum has personally really helped me to be able to sort of assess myself against where I am on that journey so regards to certain things. Um, within, for example, for me, within the engineering sector, um, whilst we have a dominance of men, and men represent over kind of 84 percent of I mean engineering black men in particular and black and minority men in particular you don't see them at those leadership levels and I see how the power play in meetings and so on and how I have actually an advantage by being a female in that environment and using my tools within my allyship toolkit to advocate in those environments is really important. So, yeah, it's a. It's a um. I encourage you if you haven't heard of it before, I'm assuming you have look it up. It's a really good one to to start looking at and mapping where you are in certain things I think william's already doing it.
Speaker 4:I think he might be thinking about this being something we can weave into the allyship event we've got oh you.
Speaker 2:So yes, I'm also going to pretend I've heard of the allies I could. I could see your little cogs going inside your obviously you'll all know about the other thing, so this is great for me, thank you very much I.
Speaker 5:I just wanted to add as well, you know this, as you're mentioning Nikkei on the Alashar continuum about what was stage two Was that kind of awareness, awareness. Awareness, you know, if you're not from a minority ethnic background, you can't be expected to have an intuitive understanding of all the issues from the get-go. You know, gaining this awareness requires, you know, reading black produced media, whether that's like particular books or black films, like there's loads of like beautiful, what fantastically directed african films from senegal, from the 1960s. There's all sorts's, all sorts of information out there, and it's not that you need to read and watch absolutely everything, just see what appeals to you. What do you find interesting? What's your easy way in?
Speaker 5:To some extent, and also being kind of critical about what it is that you're digesting is, is it, you know, this person's from a minority ethnic background, but they're from, they're actually quite privileged in in other ways? You know, are they all from the uk but from the minority ethnic background? Um, I think, just having a kind of making sure that what you're digesting is as diverse as possible, um, I think that can also be useful for for gaining perspectives into um kind of different people's experiences. Uh, as a person from a minority ethnic background in the uk, but also kind of or a non-white background worldwide, because white people are the minority in the world. You know that's something in western europe we forget it's.
Speaker 4:I mean, it's amazing when these, these sort of ideas can pop up. So I listen to podcasts rest is history, and at the moment it's discussing the french revolution, and the one I listened to yesterday was about the kind of the creation of the guillotine, just so. That's kind of that's the context. And then in deep in the discussion, the host is talking about the, the rights of man, the rights to freedom and all these kinds of things. And then I learned that there was a big movement during the French Revolution to move away from slavery, because that obviously spoke against the rights of man and instead to and to do away, to abolish the death penalty and instead to to use people who would otherwise be subject to the death penalty as, if you like, the replacement for slave labour. That conversation was happening in the 1770s, 1780s. I just found that fascinating that it was that deep-rooted in history.
Speaker 5:You might find an interesting book. It's a well-known book. It's called the Black Jacobins by CLR James, and it's all about the Haitian revolution, which is also occurring at the same time, and that's very much about the kind of interplay between the Royalists and the Republicans in France and how they're backing different groups in Haiti, which was a slave-led rebellion which was ultimately successful. But you might find that interesting because that links very, very much to what you're saying. I think it's this very French Revolution. So many very, very interesting ideas which seem so forward thinking, but how many of them really got implemented? You know, it's just things like, um, I think, with the spring, splitting the day into 10 hours and having uh, 100 minutes uh in each, in each hour, but of course the the duration of the minute is different to our, our minute just absolutely bizarre ideas, but it just shows um kind of uh, I guess, the creativity on on their part I guess because, because I am such, I mean I've, unlike guillermo, I didn't study history at school, I wasn't particularly turned on at school.
Speaker 4:I left as early as I could, 15 to start working on a building site, yeah, um. So history is something that came late to me and I have an inexhaustible capacity for it, and I find it extraordinary how most of the conversations we have now around all sorts of issues race and others have just been played out through history, over and over yes, yes, um, one thing I really like about learning, particularly about um kind of yeah, 17th, 18th, 19th century history, particularly when it comes to racism and slavery.
Speaker 5:It's just how you know. We look back and we think, oh, everyone was just comfortable with slavery. They just had no idea what was going on and they just thought black people were animals and yeah, it's just how it was. Well, no, that's actually not the case. The majority of people probably did not support slavery in any way whatsoever. It was only in the interest of very few industrialists who saw a business opportunity, and the philosophy was designed to match that and to provide some justification, so people didn't feel so bad.
Speaker 4:Most people come to it through the lens of the American Civil War, don't they? And the kind of slavery and anti-slavery, good versus evil, those kinds of things, and it's such a narrow lens.
Speaker 5:Yes, yeah, yeah. So one thing which I found very interesting about that Black Jacobins book is one of what CLR James kind of argues throughout. I think pretty much the first third of the book is that Britain's abolition of the slave trade was not a sudden change in conscience of its colonies in the Caribbean. So Haiti in particular, was a former French colony called San Domingo, and the conditions there were so bad that basically once enslaved Africans were delivered to Haiti, they often didn't survive their full lifetime. They would die after. I think the average expectancy was somewhere between five and ten years, whereas the conditions in other British colonies, such as Jamaica, allowed basically the slave population there to become self-sufficient. So the Britons decided that they didn't need the slave trade anymore because their colonies already had the slaves. So they abolished the transatlantic slave trade rather than slavery. You know, and why would you do that? The reason is because France needed the slave trade in order to keep its colonies going.
Speaker 4:There's a whole podcast here, isn't there? There is.
Speaker 5:It's absolutely so. When I you know, even on kind of like left-leaning, like media sites and very liberal columnists talking, you know, praising Britain's abolition of the slave trade and the rest of it, it's like you people don't actually know the history. The history is much more interesting than that, um it's. It's not about good or bad, it's about you know what's what actually happened I really like that last statement.
Speaker 1:It's not about good or bad, it's about what really happened and I think that's often missed when people talk about, uh, the history of, of. I think that's often missed. I don't know if you've heard of the is it Crania Americana? It's a thing that it was called scientific, the age of scientific racism and how they had studied. According to them, they had studied the black people's brain and they had worked out that these people don't have the capacity to revenge what had happened to them. They hadn't. They didn't have the capacity to take revenge on what had happened to them. So even the people that were supporting the abolitionist slavery that was one of their arguments to say, actually, you know, these people are not that clever, they, they're not going to come back and do anything. So this is a good argument to kind of think. Well, that was one of their arguments. You kind of think so.
Speaker 4:This is one of these podcasts where we could literally go on forever. I mean, I'm so fascinated by the bowl of this that, yeah, we'll probably have to do another one, I think.
Speaker 4:But good to know is that one of my jobs is timekeeper, and I'm conscious that we're time's much on, and I yeah, yeah of course apologies for not kind of surfing the surface in this in advance, because these kind of thoughts develop in my head as I go along. I kind of want to take us to the current day if I can, and this might be quite difficult. So apologies if it is, but I think I need to do it. Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 4:So my first exposure to thinking seriously about race and racism was probably in the 80s with the national front and being on marches against the national front and those kinds of things. And it was fairly easy to spot an aggressive racist back in those days. They didn't have a lot of hair, they wore very tight jeans, they didn't meet their boots. So I know that's a gross generalization and you know I had lots of skinhead friends who were the nicest people you could ever wish to meet. But generally when you went on these marches it was kind of obvious who was who and then it felt like we had dealt with it. It felt, you know, we, we went through the 90s and I know it's never been a panacea, I know it's never been perfect, I know that from the experiences of the staff here I've spoken to, but it felt like that that kind of real polarized racism had gone, but it feels like we're back there. How, how? How do you guys feel about where we are now? Can I ask that? Is that fair?
Speaker 5:yeah, yeah, yeah, absolutely nikkei, would you like to go first? How do I?
Speaker 1:feel, to be honest, I'm not surprised because I kind of think that we haven't really dealt with the root causes of it comes out from time to time because it's always there in the background. I think the assumption that racism is kind of just covert now and it's not overt is it's not the right assumption, because if people are given the opportunity, as we saw during the racial riots, then they will actually show what they actually think. So I think this is a problem that is not going to just disappear until we face it head on, we understand why people feel that particular way, we educate them about or we give them the opportunity. I know now there's the age of the internet, so people should educate themselves. And I I often say to people go, I'm not going to educate you, you go, educate yourself.
Speaker 1:But at the primary level we need to explain to people what this actually, because I think part of the issue is that people think that anyone that's here is invading on their space and so on and so forth, without actually understanding the history. So again it's going back to that history conversation as to why people are here, why we have the society we have today, what contributions we are making as a community and so that people understand that you know this is, this is how it is and we've all got to live together and get on, but until we agree, obviously it was. Was it that there was a report about the no systemic racism by the government a few years ago?
Speaker 1:so that's still playing in the background, that people have kind of validated their views that there's no system, systemic racism, and so these things come out from time to time and I don't know what the answer is. But I know that there is a lack of understanding of for many people as to why we are here I completely, completely agree with that, with everything you said.
Speaker 5:I think this is not just specific to Black people. I think this is all visible minority ethnicities. I think the UK has a problem with inequality, always has done, and I hope that it doesn't always in future. But when people feel that cause, let's be real. The past 20 years have things got better for bottom 50% of earners in the UK? No way going to food banks has become normal. People are wondering what did I do to deserve this or what? What's been going on Like um? And then they are politicians start pointing the finger.
Speaker 5:People, you know, small boats, people coming, you know, um, the first generation, uh, immigrants. Second generation immigrants and uh and the rest of it. But these are systemic issues. They're not the I'd say. The existence of people from minority ethnic backgrounds in the UK is a product of the system which isn't functioning, and the reason we're here in the first, you know.
Speaker 5:For me, I think the level, the standard of living in the UK was only sustainable as being so high in general because of the contributions from the colonies, because of this exploitation. So when you cut the blood flowing into the heart of the system, something starts to shrivel in the middle and when that starts happening, people who have lived in the middle that's their world they see things deteriorating and then suddenly, people moving there, they start blaming the people who are moving there, without understanding that the people are moving there because the places where they come from were destroyed by that extraction in some ways. Um, so I think like to answer your question, lee, like what is you know why? Why are we here? Or like what do I feel about things now? I think I think we've still got a long way to go before we can have these open conversations, uh, about you know, I? I think part of the issue is scapegoating. Uh, this is, yeah, it's been going on for a long, long time you don't see that anywhere more obvious than in politics, do you?
Speaker 4:oh gosh, yeah, and I don't want to get particularly political, and this is a. This is a sort of a non-political statement, in that it applies to the left and the right. Yeah, yeah, yeah, you know you can't have practical, pragmatic, sensible conversations about issues that we all want to talk about, um, because they concern people, without immediately swinging to the far ends of each side of the spectrum and you, you, you lose, you lose the conversation and you lose the potential powerful outcomes because it gets polarised into politics.
Speaker 5:I think yeah absolutely, 100%, yeah, definitely.
Speaker 4:I mean, we're probably close to the end of the podcast and that's not a very nice sort of sobering place.
Speaker 1:How was thinking of that?
Speaker 4:A nice way of like I've got. So you probably don't know this, but Nikkei will remember it from last time. We always do sort of like a slightly tangential closing question which I've got, but guillem's not spoken for a little while. So just before I do that, is there anything else? Sort of upbeat and light-hearted, you want us?
Speaker 2:to end on guillem no, I'm simply to say that seeper needs to run an event next year we do, we definitely do, yeah, much like we do with a lot of the edi stuff.
Speaker 4:we always to IP Inclusive to be the lead on this, and I think probably we need to start to take some of this on ourselves and sort of have these conversations. So, josh, I might be coming back to you this time. Well earlier than this time next year, obviously because it would be too late.
Speaker 2:Guest lecturer. That's a good story, isn't it?
Speaker 4:Yeah, could we just do something kind of through the lens of the French Revolution? It would be amazing.
Speaker 5:Yeah, yeah, yeah, absolutely. I think people would find it genuinely interesting. I think they would.
Speaker 4:No, I think they would you get the invention in there, don't you? Because you get the invention of the guillotine, and you know the guillotine was invented to make the death penalty less severe. Believe it or not, the whole purpose for its invention was to stop people having their heads chopped off with axes, which was seen as too barbaric. So even in the invention of the guillotine, there was sort of like a bit of wokeness going on, that's fantastic.
Speaker 4:There's so much we could do. Oh, thank you both so much for coming on, but we do have our closer. So, josh, what happens? Is, I ask Willem, a really witty, clever closer?
Speaker 4:that's kind of loosely connected to something we've talked about yeah, yeah you two then get the chance to answer and then he'll unknown to me, he will throw it back at me and I'll already have an answer prepared. Tricks of the podcast, so good. We were talking about kind of research and family trees that early and I was thinking what kind of interesting angle could I get on that that wouldn't be too uncomfortable to go to. So if you were researching your family tree, is there a person in history who would you would really love to find in it? So who, who would you like to find as a distant relative?
Speaker 2:that is a jolly good question and I'm going to say, beethoven, oh, what? Oh, is this just what were you looking? Is this just what were you looking for?
Speaker 4:I didn't know what you were looking for, were you going to come to, Was he a great bass player. I um.
Speaker 2:No, I'm just. I love music and I just would love to find out that I was a. In fact, I'm going to say I am, from now on, just find out. No one can disprove it.
Speaker 5:There. Just prove it. There's only from Beethoven. There we go. So good, go there, josh. That's a really, really difficult question to come out with. I mean, I remember watching um who do you think you are? And it was with Danny Dyer and he found out he was related to Henry VIII. Um, and so I thought that would be. That would be really cool. Um, that would be interesting. I'm also reading the the Wolf Hall trilogy at the moment. I'm just on the last book. So Henry VIII has been on my mind recently. Not saying he's a great guy, obviously, the history of his wives and the rest of it. But you know, when I think unexpected person in your family tree, I think Henry VIII. That's just what came to mind.
Speaker 2:It's for a club conversation. That's what you need, isn't it? It's for a pub conversation.
Speaker 4:That's what you need isn't it? Yeah, yes, I'm sure he is. No, actually he wasn't very prodigious when it came to output, was he? So he might not appear in that many people's family trees. That's true. Oh yeah, very true.
Speaker 5:Let me say he actually was but illegitimate.
Speaker 4:Illegitimate. Yeah, yeah, that's true, yeah.
Speaker 1:The various fits is through through history. Yeah, nika, you've, you've done a lot of. You're gonna have people, aren't you? You're gonna fail? No, so for me it's two people. There's two people. Can I'm allowed to have two? Yeah, of course you are. Yeah, okay.
Speaker 1:So the first one is um, a warrior queen in um northern nigeria. Uh called queen amina, and she reigned in 15, around 1576 to about 1610, and at a time when it was every what war is definitely still today male dominated and she made so many conquests and she captured so many lands and did so many amazing things. So I often see myself through her like, uh, you know it, wouldn't it be nice to have some sort of link to that sort of heritage of a strong um, a woman that did so many amazing things and built so many amazing cities? Um. And then the second person is I was watching Netflix and there was uh people have heard of obviously most people have heard of Afrobeats today and they've had of. They've heard of aqua beats, which is a fella nicole acqua kitty who started it, but I would love to have been his mom, who was actually the first um.
Speaker 1:She was born into a family where her dad had said uh had refused to accept that a woman's place wasn't in education and she'd actually uh studied uh to become a teacher. She'd come to the uk, come back to nigeria, and had uh decided to help the local women to to make a difference, and there's a whole, there's a netflix movie on her, so if you're interested you might want to have a look. And she kind of you know they were so much uh um, women, the market women were kind of being taxed by the government and you know there was just so much politics around. It was also linked to the british uh rule and the requirements for taxes and she was able to uh dethrone the king and because they were kind of being oppressive to the women. So again, that might be a closer. I've looked so far. I haven't found them in my family tree. I wouldn't be nice to find someone like that in the family tree somewhere.
Speaker 4:There's no point asking me because I can't beat any of this stuff.
Speaker 2:Leave something up your sleeve, come on, what is it? Well, so.
Speaker 4:I'm going gonna have two, if that's okay. So the first one is my nan. My mad welsh dan always used to tell me and I don't know why, because he isn't welsh that we were related to george stevenson, sort of that sort of engineer, kind of builder of the rocket and all those kinds of things. I've not been able to find any trace of that whatsoever in in my research, but I have no idea where she would have got the story from otherwise it's.
Speaker 4:That's that's got to be a story that's come through the family somewhere yeah I've not been able to determine that it's true, but nor have I been able to determine that it's that it's not true, so I would love to find that it was true, because that would be great, particularly from an ip perspective, wouldn't it? The other one, though, uh, and this is so. My interest in history comes from growing up in portsmouth and portsmouth being an early anglo-saxon settlement and kind of all the place names been around that, so I have a. My first interest in history was the dark ages, kind of like the post roman, pre-norman period, which we know nothing about. There's not written about much, apart from kind of one or two writers, so I would like to find the venerable bead as one of my descendants I'll make him after me People who came before me.
Speaker 5:Ancestors, ancestors, that's the word I'm looking for. Yeah, yeah. Antecedent.
Speaker 4:My brain's gone because even getting to that point was too taxing for me. Yeah, my brain's gone because even getting to that point was too taxing for me. Yeah, the venerable bead 700, 730, something like that. So, yeah, would have known enough about the dark ages to fill in all the bits I'm missing. Yeah, oh, thank you both so much for coming on. It's been a yeah. I could have just kept going forever. This has been an absolute delight. Guillem, I will see you on the next one, but before we go, we just need to remind anyone who's listening to this, who's been interested in it and why wouldn't you be? Because it's been amazing. Just leave us a little review and then other people will find the podcast and we'll get a bigger audience, which is which is what we want to do, um, so thanks, bye now, lovely yeah, see you thank you, we'll see you next time.