Two IPs In A Pod
Brilliant inventions, fresh product designs, iconic brand names and artistic creativity are not only the building blocks of successful business - they deliver a better world for us all. But these valuable forms of intellectual property must be protected in order to flourish. We are the Chartered Institute of Patent Attorneys - the UK's largest intellectual property organisation. Our hosts Lee Davies and Gwilym Roberts chat with entrepreneurs, creatives, patent attorneys and the occasional judge about how patents, trade marks, designs and copyright can improve our lives and solve problems for humanity.
Two IPs In A Pod
IP Paralegal Courses
In this episode of Two IPs in a Pod, Lee and Gwilym chat with Annemarie Parsons and Vicky Maynard about CIPA’s Introductory and Advanced Paralegals training courses.
After discussing how the IP Paralegal profession has developed over the years they dive into the structure, benefits, and objectives of each course, explaining how they help paralegals develop key skills and deepen their understanding of the IP profession.
Hello Gwynam, how are? You mate. Oh Lee, it's great to see you, so chipper I know, yeah, I feel really on fire this week.
Speaker 3:I've had a really good couple of weeks and I think I'm carrying that enthusiasm through with me. I'm off the back of Super Congress, big seller at Super Congress up in Edinburgh, which was amazing, probably one of my 12th Congress and I think it's certainly the best one I've been to. Single topic UPC, which with some really high level speakers, upc judges, the chair of the UP admin committee and some high powered users at UPC, so yeah, so it's quite great content there. And then last week was the IP Paralegal Conference, which is nice and timely because we'll be talking IP paralegal stuff today, um, nice and timely because we'll be talking ip paralegal stuff today in um. We were in birmingham and um, it's a different crowd, so got a very different feel to it. They the younger, more enthusiastic, for a good time, I would say, and um, and I'll try and tailor my performance accordingly see a lesser man would be tired and jaded from all that.
Speaker 3:But that's not no, you just keep going you're buoyed by the experience I saw.
Speaker 1:I saw the footage of you dancing on at congress to whatever the old theme tuners so I did.
Speaker 3:I did franz ferderland take me out on that congress and I did elo mr blue sky in um at the ip paralegal conference I saw the mr blue sky, good entrance, great entrance, except um and I'll test this and maybe listeners to the podcast could let me know. My wife's probably got to stop it because I look too much like David Brennan.
Speaker 1:No, no, no, no, no, no, no. I think all nobody here. There's a couple of people watching in here. Everyone's just horrified. Look, look at the horror on their faces. They're not laughing their heads off at the astonishing accuracy of that comment.
Speaker 3:Comment no I'd hate to be some sort of cheap ricky gervais um cover act I think you should make some good money from that nice little sideline.
Speaker 1:So what you've?
Speaker 3:been up to anything exciting.
Speaker 1:Um, I've just been raffling around I'm. I told you I'm going on holiday. Actually, you're gonna have a proper break, aren't you? That's exciting. I'm really excited about that. So I'm kind of just to get my head around, not reading emails all day, which I'm quite excited about.
Speaker 3:Make sure you do that as well. You've got to promise me that you will actually down tools properly. Yeah.
Speaker 1:I will, I will, I will.
Speaker 3:I'll be doing my mankini, not reading emails, that's yeah probably slightly too much information, but I can't get that image out of my head now.
Speaker 1:I've got David Brent in mind, so right back at you.
Speaker 4:Lee Davis and Gwilym Roberts are the two IPs in a pod and you are listening to a podcast on intellectual property brought to you by the Chartered.
Speaker 5:Institute of Patent Attorneys.
Speaker 3:Should we get the guests on? Yeah, well, I guess we should do in order of superiority, seniority.
Speaker 1:Neither, neither.
Speaker 3:The grief alphabetical alphabetical. Well, alphabetical, it still takes me in the way of chair of the IP Paralegal Committee. First was what I was going to say. So, Anne-Marie Parsons, hello, how are you?
Speaker 5:Hi Lee, I'm all right, thank you. How are you?
Speaker 3:They have not seen you since a very messy curry last Thursday.
Speaker 5:Yes, it was a very delicious curry, though. It was nice, wasn't it?
Speaker 3:Yeah, did they find the best place to go to in Birmingham or what.
Speaker 5:Yeah, it was delicious.
Speaker 3:Hey, gwyneth, I remember a haunt that I last went to about 15 years ago and what are the chances it was still there?
Speaker 1:Oh, fantastic. Is it a balty, a big balty in the Midlands, isn't it Balty?
Speaker 3:curries, yeah, lots of curries. So it's a place called Bargy, which is just near the conference centre, and, yeah, so I used to use it regularly when I used to speak at FE conferences, because they were always in Birmingham and we were looking for somewhere to go and I said, oh, we should, we should try and find this place, bargy, just around the corner. Still, there looks exactly the same. Pretty sure they recognize me when I walked in.
Speaker 1:Oh, I'm not buying this. What music did you play to walk into the curry house?
Speaker 3:I don't know what kind of music at every venue I go to.
Speaker 5:So, Anne-Marie that was rude.
Speaker 3:We interrupted you in your introduction.
Speaker 5:So tell us all about yourself. Okay, no problem. Well, as you know, lee, I am a senior paralegal working at Murgatroyd and I've been a paralegal for oh too long than I care to mention, to be honest and day to day. I am a senior paralegal. I still have a paralegal role, but in addition I am in charge of the training for patent paralegals at Murgatroyd. I help with their career progression. Um and um, as you say, I work very closely with the Chartered Institute of Patent Attorneys because I am on the um, I'm the chair of the IP Paralegal Committee and I also sit on council.
Speaker 5:I'm also um an examiner for the uh introductory course as well how do you find time to do any like proper? Work, you must be exhausted well, I have moments when I get a bit of paralegal work done so let's, let's introduce your, your partner on the podcast, vicky Maynard.
Speaker 3:Vicky, you've been around the IP paralegal and previously patent admin stuff for for a long time as well, haven't you?
Speaker 4:I have um not quite as long as Anne-Marie. She was definitely there before I started. She was one of the um, one of the paralegals that taught me how to do my job. Yeah, yeah, all those many, many years ago. I think it's 21 years ago now. That's really scary.
Speaker 3:Yeah, what is your job? Because you've had a recent change, haven't you?
Speaker 4:I have. Like Anne-Marie, I still work as a patent paralegal. I still do a lot of work of that, but I am the IP process manager at D Young Co. So I sort of look after all of the systems, doing all the future, looking to see what's coming up, what's going to impact, trying to make sure that everybody's got all of the training that they need in relation to all the different systems that we use.
Speaker 4:Yeah, so pretty much all round on everything with that, with all of our systems, all of the processes. Then on top of that I'm the vice chair of the admin committee and then I used to be the lead course tutor for the introductory patent certificate. Stepped away from that just over a year ago yeah, nearly two years now, but I did that because I think it needed to concentrate a little bit more on the incoming advanced patent paralegal course. And in amongst on top of that I also do I'm one of the lovely hated people that do the questions for the Europeanan patent administrator certification. So I sit on the board at the epo um dealing with those questions and my claim to fame for that is I am the only uk paralegal involved in that that's quite.
Speaker 3:That's quite a claim to fame, isn't it?
Speaker 4:well, it keeps me up message for a little while anyway, after saying and it clearly, clearly keeps you, keeps you busy um so where should we start?
Speaker 3:should we start? Should we start a little bit with just the work of the committee? How many of you are on the committee?
Speaker 5:there are 15 of us. That includes uh, we have to have a patent attorney on our committee and we have another co-opted person, so 13 actual paralegals from both industry and in-house on our committee.
Speaker 3:That's really cool, isn't it? So it doesn't sound like you're lacking in voluntary enthusiasm in that sense.
Speaker 5:Oh no, absolutely not, and we found that out when we were at the IP Paralegal Conference last week because we had so many people asking us how they could get involved with committee and who really seemed extra keen to get involved with committee. Um, that that's, you know.
Speaker 3:It's just great that people do want to get involved and I always think back to the time when we made the decision to um to sort of formalize the ip paralegal profession, um, to create it as a committee of council and to open up membership. So we, so we did that through I'm gonna be a little bit sort of governance geeky here, william, so apologies um, we did that through the 2018 review of the bylaws, which meant that came in in 2019, so just five years ago, yeah, and we counted at that time and we had in associate membership, we had about 40 I think it was 42 or 43 patent administrators or ibO illegals or people with a title that generally sort of slotted in to what we were trying to do. And I've just checked We've got 642 at the moment. So in five years, we've gone from low 40s to mid 600s and growing year on year. That's really good, isn't it?
Speaker 5:Amazing.
Speaker 4:That's impressive.
Speaker 1:Are you finding that the employers are supportive of kind of helping you guys out working on the committee and everything? Is it popular?
Speaker 4:A little bit of a mix. Okay, on the whole, I think a lot of the attorneys know that the work that the administration committee are doing and being involved under CEPA, and so all of the extra guidance and everything else they get from that, is a positive. I still think it needs to get pushed by firms a little bit more. If I'm honest, as to what the benefits are for paralegals to be members of SEPA, don't know what you think, anne-marie.
Speaker 5:Yeah, I mean my company obviously 100% behind me. Being a member of SEPA and being a member of the committee as well, they're more than happy to support me and my colleagues. I think that, like you say, we're seeing, you know, the uptake of membership increasing year on year, and I think that that's a really good sign to show that employers really are getting the message that super membership is great for their paralegals.
Speaker 3:um, so, hopefully, those companies that are backing their paralegals are leading by example and that the other firms will follow what sort of benefits are there of being um one, uh paralegal member of SEPA and two more widely involved in the work that you guys do?
Speaker 5:well, obviously the main thing is is the education side. Um, if you're a member a paralegal member of SEPA, then there are web webinars galore for you to continue your professional competence, and I think that that's probably for most people. What they use their membership for is to be able to access that. The webinars are all free of charge for SIPA members. But I guess also there's the journal, and we very recently started a paralegal section in the journal and we've had feedback that the paralegals are finding that really interesting. There's also a newsletter that comes out quarterly and I'm not sure whether paralegals know this, but they're actually invited to the um SIPA drinks events that go on um for networking, um, and then obviously we have our paralegal conference. That's just happened and members can get an early bird ticket for that so they can save themselves or their employers quite a decent amount of money on the entrance. And again, that's another great place for learning and networking. Have I missed anything else?
Speaker 3:You've sold it to me, Anne-Marie.
Speaker 5:It sounds like a good thing. Excellent, I'll wait for my commission then.
Speaker 3:So let's should we look a little bit in, a little bit more detail at um sort of specific areas I know you're keen to talk about on the podcast. So largely that's training and education. Yeah, yeah, and most, most people, as I understand it correct me if I'm wrong, because this is just sort of my um very simplistic perspective Most people probably come into the world of IP paralegal or some kind of administrative support role in an IP firm not necessarily thinking about it as a career. It's a sort of an administrative move. Absolutely.
Speaker 3:So they wouldn't have been exposed to any training necessarily before they start, absolutely so they wouldn't have been exposed to any training necessarily before they start. And so what do we? What can we offer people who are sort of new in that area of work to help them understand their world?
Speaker 4:It's a good question, nick, because we've got a few things that we've we've got in play new in post.
Speaker 4:Obviously you've got all of the internal training that's going to happen or should happen within the firm from your peers and in-house trainers etc.
Speaker 4:And after you've got some experience, there is the SEPA introductory patent paralegal course, which is available.
Speaker 4:Introductory patent paralegal course, which is available, which is now pretty much recognized as an industry professional qualification, because for finding you look at any job adverts now for patent paralegals or patent secretaries and they're all asking for people who have had this course and have got it underneath their belt. And the course basically is split down into multiple parts. So it's covering GB patent applications, european PCTs and a little bit on designs and you sit an examination at the end of that and one of the beauties of doing that qualification and passing is the fact that by default you also get membership for the remainder of that year as a SIPA paralegal member. So the introductory course is in place. I think it's not going to be that long before they're sitting the next round of examinations, because I know at the moment we're in the middle of all of the webinars that are in place for the different sections, and so everybody's doing all of their studying using the new software that's been introduced by SIPA, new learning platform called Pebblepad, which is, I've got to say, I find absolutely brilliant.
Speaker 3:It's actually really good. Yeah, I love Pebblepad. I'm a big Pebblepad fan.
Speaker 4:Yeah, just the way that you're able to interact, both if you're a mentor or a student, the way that you're able to interact with each other and literally review what point you're going or you've got to all the way through your training, and the way that you can access the materials, the webinars, all of this sort of thing is fantastic. Platform and yeah, so that's new for the introductory course this year is the um, the pebble pad bit and the feedback that we've had so far. Correct me if I'm wrong, emory it's actually been really positive um, so we're looking forward to seeing how well that keeps developing year on year with the introductory course that's really good.
Speaker 3:That's good to hear that, because I know I mean some people may have come across it if they've had any time in universities, but it's quite unusual to be being used in a professional body context. So we're quite pleased and proud to have it on board.
Speaker 5:Yeah, and I know that it's been well received in our company. As vicky said, the interaction that can can happen now between the student and the mentor is a lot easier. It's also pretty much easier to navigate your way through all of the modules and find a webinar that you're after or find the, you know, the, the written script that you're after.
Speaker 3:So, yeah, it's just a little bit more user-friendly. Do you reckon we can ever be brave enough to let the attorneys on it?
Speaker 5:I don't think they could break it, it's quite easy.
Speaker 1:We'll probably break it. You've seen us, you know. You know. Any of you ever introduce a new record system into your firm, you'll know what we can do. What we'll do first of all is we'll change it into what we used to do anyway. What we can do, what we'll do first of all, is yeah, we'll change it into what we used to do anyway. That's the first thing we'll do.
Speaker 4:Somehow we'll find a way why do you think we limit the access that you can have on these systems?
Speaker 5:also, there's no deadlines involved on pebble pad, so you should be pretty safe well, we'll never do anything then that's it.
Speaker 3:Yes, so that's so. That's the introductory course, been established for a long, long time now in various guises, and I think you're all quite happy with how that works.
Speaker 4:Yeah, yeah it's basically there to give new paralegals the foundations of what they need to be able to do their job and assist the foundations of what they need to be able to do their job and assist the people they work with and the patent attorneys as much as they can. So dealing with filing formalities, basic search and examination procedures, but literally from the start of when somebody comes in the door and says I've got this invention can, what can I do with it? All the way through to it being granted and you having that lovely patent certificate at the through to it being granted and you having that lovely patent certificate at the end of it do you?
Speaker 3:do you think that there's a sort of a period of time qualifying period, call it what you will that people should do before they start the course? Do you need to get a little bit of experience under your belt first, or could you just come straight into it?
Speaker 5:no, you definitely need some experience. Yeah, I think, uh, we definitely recognize at least 18 months where I'm working, and sometimes it can be more with. Generally, 18 months is a pretty bare minimum. Um, because it's quite a lot of information to have to learn the introductory course, the exam for it is. Also, it's a closed book exam, so you have to know the answers. You can't. You know, a lot of patent exams are open books, so you've got all your paperwork and rules and regulations that you can refer back to get the answer. But the introductory course does rely on people having a knowledge of the procedures and the formalities.
Speaker 4:So, um, you definitely need to know your stuff for it, or at least your basic stuff anyway yeah, and I think that's also part of the reason why we encourage people, when they do the course, to have a mentor. Um, otherwise they've got us. They've literally then got a point of contact they can go to if there's something that they come across or it's like I'm really not quite sure on this.
Speaker 3:So at least they've got support from their mentors is that someone they find in their firm, or could it be someone from um outside the firm? How does the mentoring thing work?
Speaker 4:work, the mentors usually are people within their own firm. Yeah, um, so it could be another. It could be a senior paralegal, it could be another paralegal who's previously done the course, or it could even be a patent attorney. Um, yeah, it could be a wide range. There's nothing in place at the moment in relation to being able to mentor outside of your own firm at the moment, but, as it stands at the moment, it usually is somebody that's internal, that has more experience and can guide you through all of the different modules of the course.
Speaker 1:I was going to ask sorry, I was going to ask what do we do before all this? Because you know, back in the day you've got your records department and without the structure and kind of qualifications or SEPA membership, how did people used to do this? Because there was quite a lot to learn.
Speaker 4:Oh, trust me, the course is smaller now than it used to be. Trust me, the course is smaller now than it used to be. Yeah, yeah, the, the iteration of the course as it stands now is half the volume of what the previous patent sorry, patent paralegals course used to be. Um, so there used to be a much bigger course, which took it's about half a year, wasn't it, anne-marie? To do, where we had to travel up to London every Thursday I think it was either in the morning or the afternoon and sit in SIPA headquarters and do your lectures and your work and at the end of it sit a massive exam in a nice big drafty hall. And the introductory course was put in place to, as I said, give people more of a, an initial understanding, um, of the filing formalities, um, the, the basics really, of the building blocks of what they will continue to learn on as they go through their profession okay.
Speaker 1:So you got, you broke it up as well, into a foundation and then you take it on and you learn. But before that, I mean, I'm pretty sure there weren't any paralegal kind of well. The word didn't exist at one point. And back in, I think in the 90s, when I was kicking off, I don't recall there being any particular formal training at all.
Speaker 5:I don't know how it used to work. It's bizarre, isn't it? I think we used to be called patent administrators. We've moved away from that to the role paralegal, and I think that the use of the word administrator is probably where it came from. Is there was probably an administrator who saw that their attorney had done the same letter for a client three times and said, hey, I could do that for you. And the attorney thought, great, that would be fantastic if you could do that for me. It's really basic, it's just a formality.
Speaker 5:And then gradually, I think then you know, those administrators gradually took on more work because there were there are formalities that are straight forward, that are set, that have set deadlines. There's no technical expertise needed, you just need to have an understanding of the law and the rules relating to those formalities. And they were things that the administrator could take on away from the attorney to free up the attorney's time. And then, gradually, I think, firms have realised that there was value to their firm by a paralegal taking on that role and freeing up the attorney's time to do chargeable work. And then gradually, it's turned into a profession and there was the original group of paralegals I suppose you could call them, which was known as IPAG or the Intellectual Property Administrators Group, and they kind of started off the process of forming a group where people could query about being a paralegal if they were in a firm, started looking at what courses were available for paralegals and if there weren't any, they could set them up. And they actually then, with SEPA, set up the um, the old iteration of the exam, which was the um yeah, the IPAC, the intellectual property administrator's certificate, yeah, and that was the course that I originally did um.
Speaker 5:But there came a point where, um, it was decided that it was quite a big course to manage and that people were actually getting more benefit out of learning the basics, so that, as V said, they kind of split that course into two and we have the intellectual property administrators certificate, which is basically what was taken out of the original iteration of the court, plus some. So there's something for even those people that did the original course. There's more learning for them. And well, I guess that's moving on quite nicely, isn't it into the fact that behind the scenes there's been a lot of squirreling getting um syllabuses ready, getting um webinars ready, getting um slides ready for the webinars, um, getting guidelines in place all the um logistics as well regarding you know how you can examine it and everything. All of that has been going on in the background and the advanced patent paralegal course is going live in the new year with a view to the studying for the qualification beginning in April 2025.
Speaker 1:studying for the qualification beginning in April 2025. That's exciting. And how so, comparatively, how long does each course run? I think you may have said on the introduction I really can't remember. So how long is the introduction, how long is the advanced?
Speaker 5:The introductory is the students will start their webinars and associated coursework in September. Then they have, they do the three main modules and they do a little bit on designs and they have a mock examination in December and they have their final examination in the January so it's yeah, it is pretty snappy.
Speaker 5:The advanced course is obviously dealing with a lot more advanced stuff, so it's going to take longer and the advanced course will run from April until the December, so pretty much three quarters of a year. It will have four core modules. There'll be a module on European patents, uk patents and PCT patents and then there will be another module on ethics. Three of the modules will be examined, but they're not examined how we currently mark the introductory course. So this is again. There's another move away from how things are with the introductory course, in that the candidates will be given an assessment for each of the modules and they will have a certain amount of time to go away and do the assessment. We are thinking that's about a month, a month, um, and then um. The assessments are marked separately from each other, so there's not one final exam. There's three assessments that go towards the qualification so I'm interested.
Speaker 1:The ethics module is an interesting one. That's not always. That's not one that has really crept into the patent attorney side, funny enough. So what? What happens in that bit was what are the? What's the focus of that module?
Speaker 4:I think it's making sure that there is a really concrete understanding about what our work performance, the way that we deal with the patent attorneys, the way that we deal with the patent attorneys, the way that we deal with the records, that we look after all of these sorts of things, having a really good understanding of the professionalism that's needed behind it, but also the fact that if you do something wrong, what the repercussions are, not just for the firm that you're working for, but for the client that you're working for as well. So and getting an understanding how it all ties in in relation to our regulatory body, ipreg. So they've got a bit more of an understanding of what it is that IPREG do and what the requirements are on the firm. It is that IPRIG do and what the requirements are on the firm. So it's giving them. It's giving them more of a high level understanding of why we do things we do in the way that we do it and the the reasoning and judgment behind it.
Speaker 1:I love that. I think I mean, anne-marie, you mentioned the word professionalization and that is so central to it. I think up. I mean, anne-marie, you mentioned the word professionalisation and that is so central to it. I think upskilling my mother would shout at me for saying upskilling she goes not a proper word. But this is all about upskilling though. Generally isn't it?
Speaker 1:It really is moving the paralegal you know dealing with the client, understanding the client needs and everything, and I think it's a really good kind of response to a lot of computerization, a lot of the old basic tasks. Machines are doing them now. But as usual we find that a response to that is to actually just get better the stuff that we really need to do, and I think the growth of the organization suggests everybody was just waiting for this to happen really yeah, absolutely, absolutely.
Speaker 4:and the amount of questions that we've received from people that have done both the old course and the introductory patent can't stress enough the amount of work and the commitment of different people for getting all of this material together, because it's a huge amount of work, as you can imagine, because it's three quarters of a year's worth of work, and that's before we even start looking at dealing with the assessments that have to get submitted back and marking those. So we can't say thank you enough to everybody that's been involved with getting this to the point where we are now.
Speaker 5:Yeah, I completely agree, Vicky.
Speaker 1:It's lovely to see. Are we kind of leading the way in Europe?
Speaker 4:Yeah for an all-round course for an all-round paral, an all round paralegal? Yeah, no, absolutely. I think we are. I think we're quite unique in the fact that we cover so many different aspects and not only have we got an introductory course, we've now got an advanced course coming in as well, and I think the fact that we're able to sit under SIPA is huge. It's showing that there's more of an appreciation and recognition of the work that we do as a profession. Our almost our entire working life has been trying to promote making sure people paralegals have as much training as they need for their role.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I think it's always been a role, that um, it was a bit in the shadows, sometimes back again, going back a little bit, um, but everybody knew that when you didn't know actually what you were doing, you just go and ask the paralegals and they sort you out. We all know they really. We just didn't admit it. I had that with the other. We had a oh, you know das das codes and all that priority document stuff. Oh yeah, um, the white, white person having issue if you come across. So I knew it was a problem, but you know why. So it's very helpful. Of andy simpson I'm going to mention andy simpson name check for andy um right up at the top of our paralegal group, who basically told me why it was important. Thanks, andy, I had no clue.
Speaker 4:We do have our little bits of knowledge here, there and everywhere.
Speaker 1:Oh no, it's unbelievable. It is unbelievable and, yeah, I was truly humbled, correctly humbled as well. Actually, I think that's what DAS stands for. Let's face it. Don't tell me, I'll look it up, I'll find out. We're going to find out and talking about kind of the internationalisation. So the EPO, I gather, is up to something. Are we involved in that? Are we connected? How's it going?
Speaker 5:So if I start by saying there is now there is it's been around for about five, six years the European Platform of Intellectual Property Administrators, the same as SIPA are doing in the UK but on a European level to basically promote the profession of being a paralegal. And part of APIPA's work is working with the EPO and working with WIPO to to look at their processes, whether they work for paralegals as well as firms. But also one of the things has been being involved with the European certification, which is also known as the EPAC, and Vicky can tell you more about that because she is highly involved with the EPAC with the EPAC, yep, yep, um, the EPAC, or European Patent Administrator Certification is just just had its exam the other week, and so that was the end, effectively the end of year three, of this certification.
Speaker 4:Now, and I must say I have to say it's a certification and not a qualification. So please do correct me if I say qualification, because I'll get shouted at by the.
Speaker 4:EPO and the idea there is trying to upskill patent administrators who deal with European work to a high level, european work to a high level, and it deals with some complex issues with working with the EPO, whether it not it be with them as something that's being done as a European patent application or if it's something that's being done as a PCT application, but using the EPO to basically get the documents in the first place. So anything EPO related is where you're going to get the basis for the syllabus for this. I can't even say it's a new certification anymore, because it's three years anymore, because it's three years. Um, and the syllabus is huge, as you can imagine. It covers absolutely everything that you could come across. Um, there is a board of us um which consists of members of the EPO, members of the EPI and, for my sins, I can't actually remember what EPI stands for.
Speaker 1:Is it the European Patent Institute?
Speaker 4:That's it.
Speaker 1:That's the first thing I've known through this entire podcast. I'm so proud of myself.
Speaker 4:So, yeah, it has members from the EPI as well, and then it also has a broad spectrum of patent paralegals involved in there as well. And ultimately I've been responsible for designing the syllabus. The EPO themselves have designed all of the training materials that go alongside it, which has been drawn up and is delivered by the EPO Academy and the questions. As I said at the beginning is basically partly my fault, along with the other board members. So we literally meet at the beginning of the year to set all of the questions for the exam, which consists of this year there were 15 1-5 multiple choice questions, followed by six open questions where you were basically given a scenario and then asked some questions on it.
Speaker 4:Um, so it's, there's a lot to it. The expectation of the EPO and of a lot of patent attorneys who have been involved with the course has said they want their paralegals If they pass this certification. It's a certification from the EPO, so they want to make sure that the standards are high, hence the difficulty of the course. But I think, anne-marie, you sat at the first year, so I think you can comment on the materials, the syllabus and the exam.
Speaker 5:Well, I mean, basically, as you say, it covers an absolutely huge amount. The good thing is that it is an open book exam, so you have got the ability to access any documentation that you need. Having said that, you do need to have a high level understanding to be able to know where to go to look for the information. Um, and the questions are pitched pretty much at attorney level of formalities. So all of the quirky things that can happen, um, that you're more likely to come into contact with if you're more advanced in your in your profession, um, and yeah, I mean I have to say I've been a paralegal for a long time and I found it very difficult, um, but I did pass it, which is good for you um so, yes, I was one of the first uh europeanegals, so that's quite a nice little thing to have under my belt, and we're hoping that the advanced exam or the advanced qualification that SEPA are going to be providing is going to have very similar high level knowledge.
Speaker 5:Again, it's about when you're a senior paralegal not necessarily knowing everything on a syllabus, but knowing where to go and find that information, which I think is you know. It mimics what happens in everyday senior paralegal working life is, if you come across a problem, you may not necessarily know straight away what to do with it, but you know where to find the information. And the EPAC looks at that and the advanced course that SIPA will be offering will also be looking for that level of knowledge.
Speaker 4:But obviously the biggest difference between the two, the European course, or the European certification, is focused purely on European procedural acts, whereas the advanced course that will be being done through SEPA covers GB PCT, regardless of where you're filing it. And which one did I forget, emery EP? Thank you, ep. Oh dear, you can tell it's getting towards the end of the day. Yeah, so I think the advanced course from our side gives our paralegals a lot more scope for learning, which ultimately, across most of the firms that the paralegals work in or for that's what we do on a day-to-day basis. It's very rare that you're going to get a paralegal that deals solely with European work. Our roles usually are multifaceted, so that's where I think we've got the edge really on this, because it is such it's built much more around what it is that we actually do every day well, thank you both for coming on and um talking us through the now incredibly complex world of IP paralegal training.
Speaker 3:Now that we've got different levels and the European dimension and I'm sure it'll get better as we go on as well There'll be more options and modules for our paralegals to take. Are you sat there thinking, oh, we could have talked about this. Are there any things that you're thinking, oh, I really wish we could have squeezed that in. Or do you think you've exhausted the subject?
Speaker 5:I suppose you probably hit on the fact that there will be extra modules in the future on the advanced exam. To start off with, it will be four modules.
Speaker 5:But there will be some other bolt-ons that if you take the exam next year, that if you take the exam next year when the, when the additional modules come out, you will have access to them because you've already done the exam. So you won't have to try and get you know, go off and ask somebody for it, you'll just be given it, and that would concentrate on things like transfer of rights or spcs or designs. So there'll be other little modules for people, but at the minute the main focus, as you can probably imagine, is just to get the main part of the exam and subsequent qualification out for people Also as well. I suppose we should probably talk about how much it's going to cost for the advanced exam, because anybody listening to this is probably very interested. So it will be £1,200.
Speaker 4:But the beauty with that is the fact that if you think about the advanced courses in four modules, so it's effectively £300 per module.
Speaker 3:Yes, it sounds like a really good value to me. I know people would expect me to say that, but in terms what you pay for professional qualifications, that's.
Speaker 5:That seems to be reasonable yeah, and and you know it is as we've said it's. It's pitched as being an advanced exam. You know, if somebody's taken the introductory course, they may not necessarily be in a position to be taking the advanced exam, even though, like say, it's open book. You've got to have that knowledge of being in the job and have some kind of senior role to have really come across the more advanced things that are covered in the advanced exam. So it's usually going to be somebody that's probably been working as a patent paralegal for three or four years since they did the introductory qualification oh, thank you both so much for um coming and spending your time with us.
Speaker 3:Uh, we always try and end on a little bit of a tangential question. Um, and grill and I've been not necessarily knocking ideas around in the. In the chat we've got as far as who's going to do this me or you, and it's me.
Speaker 1:Um so it is, you're right, good, good, good. Oh yeah, I think that's what we decided, wasn't it?
Speaker 3:it's good, it's a good one, you know so we talked a wee bit at the start about um, walk on music and the like. So I'm going to give you a scenario, okay. Your scenario is um, you, you broke up in your hotel in the morning, yeah, and um, the keynote speaker for the conference that you were just going to be a delegate at, and you don't know, really, really know anybody has pulled out and someone said to you well, will you cover the slot? And you said, yes, what's your walk on music? What? What do you walk on to so that a bunch of people who wouldn't otherwise know you get you immediately. What's, what's?
Speaker 1:Oh, well, I'm very much a power ballad person, as you know.
Speaker 3:Oh really.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I'm both kind of a power ballad and so I'd probably pay the best power ballad ever, which I would have woken up to in the hotel room, because you've got to wake up to a power ballad. It's kind of an alarm, kind of a call to action, an alarm in many ways, action and an alarm in many ways.
Speaker 3:So, yeah, um, there's no question that I would walk on to africa by toto. Oh yeah, yeah, no, like that, good, good shout not, not quite this bouncy, sort of you didn't.
Speaker 1:You didn't ask me what I was wearing because one of them in my giraffe costume.
Speaker 3:It all makes sense yeah, because you obviously had that in your hotel with you, didn't you?
Speaker 4:that was I was half expecting you to say that was going to be the mankini that you'll be going to be wearing on your holiday.
Speaker 1:I said my key, didn't I?
Speaker 3:yeah unfortunately, I'm marine. Vicky. You now have to answer the same question. So, um, go on, emory. What? What's your walk-on music in this unfair scenario, I've dumped you in okay, uh, well.
Speaker 5:Well, willem loves a power ballad, I love a musical, so I'm going to go for If my Friends Could See Me Now, oh yeah, yeah, yeah, I like that there's a story there as well.
Speaker 3:Isn't there that tells a story.
Speaker 1:I like that. What's that? Is that Chicago? No, what's that from?
Speaker 5:Isn't it from sweet charity?
Speaker 1:another song, right, I'll google it quickly you keep going yeah, let's.
Speaker 3:Let's have vicky ever go well grill and amory frantically google it's sweet charity.
Speaker 5:It's sweet charity, I was right well done me.
Speaker 4:Just because of the way that my brain is jumping around all over the place all the time I think it would have to be.
Speaker 1:I predict a riot oh, wow that is that is a that's going to get the room going, I like yeah yeah, yeah, obviously I know, surprised lee by saying lee, it's not fair because we know he's got two. I do this immediately.
Speaker 3:I don't know about two in the back pocket immediately. I don't know. I normally have a couple a year, don't I, because I do it regularly. I did Radiohead's Creep back in November at the Memcom one. That went down really, really well. It was the clean version. Obviously there was a couple of weeks left wearing it.
Speaker 1:I'm going to add an extra dimension to it, though, lee. Go on then To to your scenario, which is that it's um. You're actually fronting an awards, um awards show for the fashion industry.
Speaker 3:It's an award show for the fashion end. How am I gonna? How am I gonna, oh, no, oh, there's so many come to mind that aren't clean enough for me to use. Uh, I'll tell you after we stop recording. So, yeah, no, my head would be kind of a whirl looking at all of the different outfits and stuff. So, off the top of my head, gwilym, I'm going to go with the Vic and Bob version of Dizzy. Yeah.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I like that. All the cool people love that song.
Speaker 3:Yeah, yeah, top of my head, yeah, I couldn't think of anything better than that I think you'd have anna wintle, off a chair, dancing leading the conga. If only, if only we've got to wrap it up there, but our listeners are going to hang around for just a couple of seconds longer because before they leave, before they leave, they're going to pop us a little review on the podcast platform that they're using so that other people can find us. Thanks all thanks, nice to see you bye. Outro Music.