Two IPs In A Pod
Brilliant inventions, fresh product designs, iconic brand names and artistic creativity are not only the building blocks of successful business - they deliver a better world for us all. But these valuable forms of intellectual property must be protected in order to flourish. We are the Chartered Institute of Patent Attorneys - the UK's largest intellectual property organisation. Our hosts Lee Davies and Gwilym Roberts chat with entrepreneurs, creatives, patent attorneys and the occasional judge about how patents, trade marks, designs and copyright can improve our lives and solve problems for humanity.
Two IPs In A Pod
Counterfeit Combats and Creative Innovations: Insights from SnapDragon IP
Ever found yourself chasing a toddler through bustling streets in Vietnam or battling childhood shingles during a family getaway? We share these personal adventures that serve as a lively backdrop to our enlightening conversation on the intricate world of intellectual property. Lee and Gwilym are joined by the insightful Rachel Jones and Jet Doran from Snapdragon IP, who reveal their journey from personal invention to establishing a key player in the fight against online counterfeits. With tales of unexpected innovations and the harsh realities of counterfeiting, this episode promises a unique blend of engaging narratives and critical insights.
Lee Davis and Gwilym Roberts are the two IPs in a pod and you are listening to a podcast on intellectual property brought to you by the Chartered Institute of Patent Attorneys.
Speaker 4:Hey, Gwilym, it's been a week or two since we've done a podcast, so welcome back, if that's the right thing to say.
Speaker 5:Well, I've been away, but I've had a holiday. You have, haven't you?
Speaker 4:Yeah, where have you been? I know where you've been, but for the listeners.
Speaker 5:Where have you been, hi listeners? I went to Hong Kong and Vietnam Sounds really really good.
Speaker 4:And you had a proper break, didn't you? A bit of downtime.
Speaker 5:Yeah, really good, uh, and you had a proper break, didn't you bit of downtime? Yeah, yeah, definitely from work. I didn't really think through taking a two-year-old to vietnam as it was fun. Went to, it went to a cocoa farm, uh, had a car crash you've not told me that bit oh, this is, I think it's a daily occurrence.
Speaker 5:It wasn't, it was just a car crash. You know, they, just everyone, just the other car just drove off and our driver just kept driving and that was that. But it was over here who qualified. It's a fairly decent crunch. That was quite cool, uh, and it's. And then stayed in um ho chi minh saigon for just one night, but that is. That place is fantastic, so it was really, really cool. But again, with a two-year-old didn't think that through yeah, it's.
Speaker 4:You know, I remember holiday when the girls were young. I remember the first time we went on holiday, we got really, really excited about it. And just as we were getting on the plane, the day before we were getting on the plane, evie, who's my youngest daughter, would have been four or five very, very nervous about flying and she just complained that her side itched a little bit, a little bit and she had a couple of spots there. Took her to a chemist and the chemist said oh, looks like she's got a little bit of eczema or something. Take this cream. By the time we landed she had full-blown childhood shingles. Now, now, you, you, try, try.
Speaker 4:We were on one of the greek islands I can't remember which it was and we were in one of these kind of resort places. You try and find a doctor who knows anything about childhood shingles in in a sort of an environment like that. But fair play to the on-site doc. He was really, really good. You like this stuff. I think I might tell you a story more. It's worth telling. So he, he did a lot of research. We'd spoken to our doctor back home. They had diagnosed as childhood shingles. Uh, just get a load of zavirax cream until she gets back was basically the um the help that we were offered. So the doctor chucked me in his car. We couldn't get the virex cream other than going to multiple pharmacies. So he's driving me around this greek island dropping me off at pharmacies, and when I would go in there, invariably the person behind the counter would come out and say english man with herpes.
Speaker 5:That was how my holiday went yeah, we, um, we had to try and translate hand, foot and mouth into vietnamese in the village and they they basically said you need to go to the hospital immediately, and we think it was not that bad. We think they thought she had monkey pox. So, yeah, it was fun though. Yeah, it's good to get away. Great to be back right, great to have back.
Speaker 4:Shall we crack on with the podcast? Yeah, so we've got Rachel and Jet with us today to talk about Snapdragon IP, which I think we'll let them tell their story, shall we? Who's going to go first? Rachel, would it make sense for you to go first?
Speaker 1:Great, very happy to. Thank you so much for inviting us along, very excited and slightly nervous to be here, but it's great to be here. I'm Rachel Jones. I'm the founder and former CEO of Snapdragon, snapdragon Monitoring, and we fight fakes online. That's my one-line intro.
Speaker 4:Fight fakes online.
Speaker 1:Yes, all online threats, but fighting fakes is how we started.
Speaker 4:That sounds something that's interesting to explore. Jet, what about you? Who are you?
Speaker 2:Hi, great to meet you. So my name is Jet. I have worked with Rachel at Snapdragon since the beginning of the business, which was 10 years old this week. So we, as Rachel said, we fight fakes online, so I'm really passionate about online brand protection and that's helping brands detect infringements of their intellectual property rights online on the online marketplaces, social media platforms, domains, websites and using the intellectual property rights that they have available to shut down infringing content.
Speaker 4:Makes sense, I think, but we'll find out exactly how much sense it makes. So you have an interesting origin story, don't you Rachel?
Speaker 1:We do, yes. So I have always been passionate about IP, particularly about trademarks, but only because, when I used to work in marketing many moons ago, I always thought people's trademark portfolios were really interesting, and 20 or so odd years ago I invented a baby product only because life was difficult out and about with a baby. I hadn't got as far as Vietnam but was doing quite a bit of traveling. Every time I went into a cafe, somebody hauled a miserably filthy high chair out of the downstairs loo and I didn't want to use it. So I would take off my jumper and tie my daughter into an adult chair using the jumper, and I just thought this is nuts, but this is the only way to actually have a life, which I felt was incredibly important. So one very grim day, after a horrible experience with the grubby high chair, I chopped up my wedding dress and turned it into what became the tot seat, which is a large nappy type affair which anchors a baby safely in any adult chair when you're out and about. It adjusts for any shape or size of chair and I decided to take it to market and take it to market. I did, and it did really well and I ended up leaving my other job and setting up this tot seat business, and the top seat did very well with selling John Lewis boots and places like that in 50 countries around the world.
Speaker 1:And as I was going along I thought well, I like trademarks, I'll register my trademark. So I did that and I got design rights as I was going along, thought that might be a good thing to do, thought I would be copied by the high street chains and was so. That was the first infringement of ip I came across and then, as we went into our 52nd export territory I think it was a counterfeit was seized at southampton by my friends at hmrc border control and I was enraged, but that I was, I mean, in a way it was good that it was seized, because then I wouldn't have known about the counterfeits otherwise and I had registered the Totsie with what used to be Citex. It's now the IPEC portal in terms of being able to register products for movement around Europe. And so on the registration form it said the Totsie's moved around in LCL containers of 3,000 units a pop and this was a box of 36 that had come in and an eagle-eyed officer had spotted them and the bottom just fell out of my world.
Speaker 1:I was just horrified, absolutely horrified. I mean, I knew when high street chains make a copy, it's theirs and you know they've made it properly and it's a copy and it's infringing your IP and you can do something about it, but actually a counterfeit. It was horrible. I actually have one here, which is no use for the listeners, but it's helpful for you to see. So we have a genuine one and a fake.
Speaker 1:And as you can see, even from the packaging, it's really difficult to tell the difference. And when the fake arrived in the office, you know, put it on the table and, you know, hardly anybody could tell the difference. The board couldn't tell the difference, that the copy was very good, but where had it been made? How safe was it? What chemicals were in the counterfeit, all that kind of thing. I had met Jet, who at that point was looking for a role, having graduated in law and terrorism studies and was interested in fakes, said come on, let's go to China. And we were on a plane and we went to China, literally went to Alibaba, guangzhou, and we sat in the meeting room, in the queue to the meeting room, until they would see us. And it was like the scene from a bad film really. But they did see us and they taught us how to use IP to take infringements offline. And we said to them look, smes are as affected by fakes as luxury product, which wasn't necessarily what they were used to. And thus began the story of Snapdragon.
Speaker 4:And I guess I'm sure Gwyneth has some questions to ask but I guess alongside the devastation of having ip infringed and discovering their account of it, there's also potential just reputational damage, isn't there? Because if you've got goods out there which purport to be yours but aren't of the same quality and are potentially injurious, then all of that can bite back on you well, that was my absolute concern.
Speaker 1:I with a baby product as well. I mean, I just couldn't afford for somebody to buy a fake and have a horrible experience with it and you know babies, somebody could easily have got hurt. So it was that, it was the kind of health and safety fear that was driving me to, you know, to do something about it. I just wasn't going to have it. I just wasn't going to have it. I just wasn't going to have it. And so, once jet and I'd learned as much as we go to malabar, but I resolved to come back, uh, raise money, build tech, build a team and provide a service that so nobody else would go through the same hell that I'd gone through.
Speaker 5:In a nutshell, yeah, because we're counterfeiting. I mean people tend to sometimes maybe trivialize it a bit. You know it's football shirts, dodgy rolexes, um, which carry their own ponds, don't get me wrong. But I think people forget that counterfeiting often is really quite. I mean the ones that the other two of the scary ones I hear about are obviously pharmaceuticals terrifying and airplane parts, that's. It is that's. I think you know it's important that people realize it's not just a we're getting a cheap football shirt. It's actually pretty horrific sometimes and I was gonna ask, I mean, so you see, hmr hmrc stepped in out of interest. How does that work? How did you find that?
Speaker 1:um, absolutely fantastic. I couldn't I mean, I couldn't recommend them highly enough, which is not what a lot of people say about hmrc. But I've had nothing but fantastic experiences with the border border force team, to be perfectly honest. Honestly, they're great, I mean.
Speaker 1:I mean, I think it's very difficult for border force, isn't it? They're very under-resourced, like every other bit of anybody involved in policing intellectual property crime, and not a lot of containers are inspected when they move around and they have to look for people in armaments and drugs before they look for intellectual property infringing product. But if you do go through the process by filling out the right forms and making sure that your product is on that list of things that they need to look out for, then you may be lucky and they will find them, and then you can have your products seized and you can do something about it. So I think it's really important that it's free to do and you can do the European one, and it translates it all into a vast number of languages for every European port, and it's all free and it's just in your best interest if.
Speaker 5:How do they remember it all?
Speaker 1:Well, I suppose the system, they have a system, so it's a brilliantly organized computerized system and I guess when they have stuff coming in they probably put the description in and it might flag something up that would be in it like a database. So it'll be a really super, super efficient database, which I haven't gone into the nitty gritty of how it works.
Speaker 2:And in the UK there are agencies like the Anti-Counterfeiting Group. There are agencies like the anti-counterfeiting group, so they'll run regular and they call them ip road shows where they invite members from border force to meet brands themselves and they talk in person and they run them through examples of real, real and fake and they provide them with fact sheets and all sorts of helpful tools and tips. So the more, the more invested the brand is in assisting them with that information, the more likely they're going to be to to spot infringements when they occur. And we can leave some links if helpful. I don't know if you have uh notes in the in the podcast on the podcast, but we could put some helpful links. There's the um uk application for action, the equivalent in the eu, and then there's one for the us as well was something like top seat.
Speaker 5:Is that kind of eminently counterfeitable? Was it in the sweet spot, as it were?
Speaker 1:well, I'm afraid nowadays, everything's in the sweet spot for being counterfeited. It's a cloth product, it's a fabric product, so really very, very easy to copy. But isn't everything now? I mean everything from toothpaste to ball bearings. You know, we see. You know, we see it all the time and absolutely every single day. I was just a bit taken aback that you know something as well as basic as a baby product would be ripped off. But we see it all the time with crowdfunding products, people have wonderful ideas and they go online with them to crowdfund and, sadly, frequently before the product gets to market, the counterfeit gets to market because they get masses of traction online. People think it's a great idea. It is a really great idea, but counterfeiters have sophisticated and complex manufacturing and supply and distribution chains and they can be very efficient.
Speaker 5:Quick legal question. So when you pick up your counterfeiter, which rights are you relying on? Is it principally IP, or are there other rights you can lean on as well?
Speaker 1:We use IP rights, Jet. Do you want to talk more about that?
Speaker 2:Yes, so at Snapdragon, we're relying on intellectual property rights. So we use a notice and takedown systems that are available to report infringement, and we're reporting infringement to the platform or to whoever's hosting the content. So we're not liaising directly with the sellers, we're not getting into that kind of battle. We're reporting the content to the host. So we're using all sorts of intellectual property rights trademarks, copyright, designs, patents but in the main, yeah, intellectual property. Sometimes there's the opportunity to liaise with the platform if there's issues around safety, and then they will potentially intervene, but it's quite difficult because then you might have to prove that the product is unsafe, um, so that might require some testing. So then, who takes on the expense of doing that? But, yeah, in general it's intellectual property rights you mentioned platforms there.
Speaker 5:I mean, is that, if you kind of nailed the major online platforms, does that deal with? Is that kind of an 80 20 thing where you you get enough of it to stop the problem?
Speaker 2:or I mean it's really about trying to address our clients pain points. So where are their biggest pain points? It might just be on key platforms that are competing with their own sales. It might be looking at wholesale marketplaces in order to kind of deal with the problem at source and the hope that there'll be a trickle-down effect. It might be that they want to shut down, clone fake websites that have been set up to kind of scam people out of their personal contact details or financial details people out of their personal contact details or financial details.
Speaker 2:So it really depends on what's the biggest threat to the brand. Is it financial, is it reputational? If there's concerns around the manufacturing process, because sometimes we might find that counterfeit products are manufactured in some really unsavory conditions. There might be child labor, slave labor, there might be environmental pollution. So then it becomes important to kind of locate the source of the problem so that our clients can go in with perhaps some offline action in terms of litigation or shutting down a factory. So it's really looking at where the biggest pain points are. It's very difficult for a brand any brand of any size to address all of these problems, so it's usually about prioritizing their issues just on sorry, this I'm supposed to be on the podcast.
Speaker 5:I'm really interested. Um, in terms of the platforms, let's not name any names for people who don't meet the following criteria but typically do you find that they're very open and ready to move and have good systems in place to make sure that they can stop counterfeiting?
Speaker 2:Some better than others, without a doubt. I won't name any names of companies that aren't doing it well, but some have put some real effort and resources into building user-friendly platforms. They have teams of well-trained people who understand intellectual property issues and take appropriate action. I think it's difficult because they need to be aware of the fact that sometimes the system is also abused. Some rights holders might be using the system to shut down competition, so we're often having to prove the infringement. So there's a lot of information that's required to prove the infringement has taken place, that our clients are indeed the owners of the intellectual property rights. We have to be very mindful that we are making a correct accusation. In the UK we're all fearful about groundless threats, not so much in other jurisdictions. But it's really important to use these processes carefully and properly. But some are more user-friendly than others.
Speaker 5:And the ones are pretty good. You know it's a big resource. This is again an interesting question why? Why is it important to the platforms? They're losing sales question why?
Speaker 2:why is it important to the platforms? They're losing sales? Yes, thankfully there there's legislation that makes them take action in most jurisdictions, so they don't think they have a choice in the matter. But also they want to be seen to, you know, be selling legitimate product. It's important for them to attract um brands themselves, and we've seen it with amazon, where some brands have completely withdrawn from the platform brands like birkenstock because they um didn't feel that perhaps amazon was taking appropriate action to deal with issues around counterfeits. So there can be repercussions for them um if they're seen to not be doing the right thing molly, should I keep rolling?
Speaker 4:are you done? Are you done? I'll keep going, keep going. Then I've got questions. I've got questions, but you're on the roll, mate I'm on, I'm on the roll.
Speaker 5:I'm on the roll. I'm gonna just go sideways for a minute and jet sorry but dominating you for a minute. But um, so that's the law side of your study. How does the terrorism come in useful?
Speaker 2:I knew he'd go there well, unfortunately there there are definitely connections between um, between counterfeiting and terrorist organizations. You know, often the the money involved in counterfeiting is really being used for nefarious purposes. So you know, to go back to the point you made earlier, people often trivialize the issue of counterfeiting but there are, you know, pretty significant impacts.
Speaker 5:This money is often used for lots of horrific criminal activity, including terrorism that's kind of one for me, for a minute at least, is about again a bit more philosophical. You're relying on ip laws principally, um, you know your trademarks and copyright, whatever it might be um to invoke, and obviously customs then steps up and does a great job and it's full-on counterfeiting and they can spot it and everything. But you're relying on laws that I think the most recent one's probably the trademarks act, which is about 1990, something, um. And then you've got copyright, designs, patents act, 1988, and if you're on the patents act it's 1977. They're quite old laws. Do we need a rewrite?
Speaker 2:well, it's difficult because the legal framework has just not caught up with what's happening online at all, and this isn't just about intellectual property. It's happening in lots of different areas of law, um, and I think you know, a really um good example of that is around deep, deep fake pornography. It's absolutely horrific. What's um permitted to happen online aroundfake pornography without any legal framework to really do anything about it, and it's changing, but it's changing painfully slowly. So, yes, I think we need a rewrite of most laws when it comes to the digital space.
Speaker 1:Sorry, just to add my tuppence worth in there. Even the systems, I mean the reasons that some of the application processes are so slow, is because a patent application used to go on a boat and it would go across the Atlantic on a boat to be looked at somewhere else, and so the timeline was all about how long the boat took to go across the Atlantic and come back again. I mean, maybe we do need an update on that kind of thing as well. Yeah, I mean maybe we do need an update on that kind of thing as well.
Speaker 5:Yeah, we'll still work on that. Yeah, I'm off by boat. I'm good with that. No, it's interesting, isn't it? I think there's something. I mean, I'm a patent attorney, that's my world, and there's always conversations about the 18-month publication period that's how long it used to take to publish things and the one-year priority period that's how long it used to take to to travel and everything, and the 20-year patent duration. That at some point was a generation or something, I don't even know. But obviously all these things are now well out of date. The problem, I guess, is that, certainly in an area where you need international harmonization, you can't open any of these cans of worms, because you open a conversation about one thing and opens up a whole bunch of access to medicine, arguments or whatever these things. So I guess politically it might be quite difficult to make those changes.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I think it is because you could make the change in the UK, but actually, if the change was relevant somewhere else in the world, then they might not have even the telecommunications speed at which to comply with all of that. So, yeah, it's an international thing, isn't it? It's not just about where we are.
Speaker 2:And when it comes to intellectual property, this is so relevant because often IP is registered from one jurisdiction to the next, it's registered differently, whereas the global nature of the internet just means that that jurisdictional cutoff isn't necessarily relevant. And it's a big problem, and we're seeing more and more court cases which have, you know, invited us to look at whether this system still works or not and in terms of the work that we do. Some marketplaces, some platforms, are considered international, so the the likes of Alibaba or AliExpress. It's possible on these platforms to enforce intellectual property rights that aren't necessarily registered in China, where the Alibaba group is based, despite the fact that a lot of the sellers are going to also be based in China. But you can actually use your intellectual property rights that are registered in the UK, say, to have content removed from those platforms, because the platform recognises that actually a lot of their sellers are coming from all over the world or their buyers are coming from all over the world.
Speaker 4:So are you done, willem? Is that it? Are you done for now, for a minute? For a minute, okay. Can I have a question or two? Is that all right? Get in? So I think probably back to rachel, for this one is first of all, is top seat still a thing?
Speaker 1:is it still a product? Are you still selling it? Just about, just about? It's a very wee, it's a very wee business and it just sells online. But yes it, it ticks, it, ticks over, it ticks over. It's still a fantastic product, to be perfectly honest.
Speaker 4:So if you're traveling with a child, it's what you need that's, but it's been a long time, although I am now traveling with grandchildren, so maybe I do need to oh well, maybe that's what you need then.
Speaker 5:Yes, six months to about 18 months we could have done with something like that number seven.
Speaker 4:Grandchild is due in january, so I'll have a little. I'll have a little look another one another one. I know, gwilym, I know there's trouble having so many children. Is that they multiply, then, by a factor, don't they? The reason I asked Rachel is obviously there was a point in time when you realized that Totsie was not going to be the future business for you, and Snapdragon, whatever it looked like at the time, was. Do you want to tell us how that came about? When did you decide to grow this as a business?
Speaker 1:Well, it's a really good question and it was really thanks to the tot seat investor that I was able to kind of what I would term as pivot although it's quite a pivot going from manufacturing a baby product into deciding that you're going to develop tech and scale a tech business when you're a non-technical founder. So I think it really came at the point where I thought, well, we've got rid of as many fake tot seats online as we possibly can. And with Jet joining me, we had a little pact and we decided that if we could find enough people who would be encouraged by our finding fakes for them online and taking them offline, so kind of demonstrating that actually this was all a totally manual process at this point, but we discovered there were lots of people in the baby industry that had fakes. They just weren't talking about them and I was like this is nuts, these are products where somebody could get hurt. Let's talk about this issue. It's really important. It's not a victimless crime. Let's just do something about it.
Speaker 1:So we did, and we gave ourselves three months and we identified enough potential clients who were happy with what we were doing. They were thrilled with what we did and actually some of them are still with us to that day. And at that point I said right, well, I'm going to try and develop. Snapdragon went off and raised just about 4 million to do that in terms of investment, equity investment, and built the team. And well, had to build a tech team because, being non-technical, no good at that. And there we are, and so now we're a team of just under 30.
Speaker 4:Wow, so just a small thing you said there. You said we identify clients. Do you identify clients by identifying them as individual brands, who, who might be victims of counterfeiting? Or do you find the counterfeits first and then go to the brands and say, look, this is happening to you. You might not know about it?
Speaker 1:well, in the in the very early days, because I was immersed in the toy and baby industry, which is, um, quite an interesting place to be I was just so furious that there were fakes of toy and baby products that I went to those brands and said, look, you've got issues. You know, let me help. I totally get it. I mean, I totally get the rage and I totally get all the issues that might happen, you know, if somebody buys one of these fakes Nowadays a little bit both, but most of our clients come to us through word of mouth, to be perfectly honest. So you know, one can always raise one's profile. It's nice to raise one's profile, but most people come to us through recommendation.
Speaker 4:Yeah, and without giving away any sort of like operational secrets or trade secrets, I guess you might otherwise think of them. How do you identify counterfeiting? How do you find these fake goods that are appearing online?
Speaker 2:Yeah, ok, so we have developed some proprietary software which we call Swoop, and we're using a combination of search terms, of search terms, and so we're using search terms to go and identify infringing products. So these will be products that kind of best describe our clients' products or brands and then our software goes off and finds those products on the various marketplaces, social media sites, and then we're using AI capabilities to sift through those hundreds of thousands of results and make sure that only the most relevant results are brought to the fore.
Speaker 4:That sounds really sophisticated. How do the online platforms feel about being swooped?
Speaker 2:That is a great question. Some are fabulous and they will provide us with an api to help us I guess that's what I was thinking.
Speaker 4:Is that kind of the interoperability bit?
Speaker 2:isn't it is the key yeah, some do and some actively try to block us from from doing this. So, yeah, you can't?
Speaker 4:you can't tell us which do what again? No, no, that's a terribly unfair question. Gwilym is shaking his head at me now.
Speaker 2:Can I say that eBay are great.
Speaker 4:You've identified the counterfeit, what's the first action? You have your client, the business that's working with you. You talked earlier about kind of takedowns and stuff like that. I don't actually understand how that works. I guess is what I'm saying how do you go about that initial action of saying, hey, this is counterfeit, it's wrong, it's affecting your business, we need to do something about it?
Speaker 2:Yeah, so we will talk them through various processes. I mean, it's important to remember that we're not IP lawyers, so we'll often recommend that they go back and speak to their legal counsel whether it's internal or external about the best approach. So it might be that, before anything happens, the most sensible thing to do would be to do a test purchase so that there's that physical evidence in hand and you can do really thorough comparison between the real product and the fake and then decide what actions should best follow on from there. But sometimes the client just wants to have that product removed from sales. So then we would follow a process that's known as notice and takedown, where we're essentially notifying the platform about our client's intellectual property rights and highlighting that there could be an overlap here between our client's IP rights and the products that are being sold online, and then the platforms take action on that basis to remove the infringing content or perhaps remove the whole listing, depending on the IP being infringed.
Speaker 4:Got it. So I think what I understand from that is that you're not looking to take away from the current existing legal support systems that a client might have in place, be that patent attorney, trademark attorney, solicitor, in-house legal counsel, whatever that might look like. You're adding value in terms of providing some really sort of sensitive radar technology to find out where things are happening.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, absolutely yeah, absolutely really really nice way to to summarize it actually, and often you should write our marketing blurbs. Often are the lawyers that we work with are using our software to really gather evidence as well what is out there, what's being sold. So it's not necessarily about moving as quickly as possible to shut down those listings. It can be an exercise in gathering intelligence so that they can then decide what best to do with that information.
Speaker 4:So probably final question for me before I kick it back to Gwilym, if he's got any more to ask what next? Where do you go with the business next? What other future things can you maybe develop that will help the legal system tackle counterfeiting and fraud?
Speaker 1:Well, you just have to be two steps ahead all the time, because counterfeiters and fraudsters are cleverer and cleverer by the minute. The rise in fake domains that we saw over COVID has just been extraordinary. I mean we used to deal mainly with products, but actually increasingly since COVID we've seen a lot of service firms being ripped off domains, as Jet mentioned earlier on, and from there invoices go out and people pay them and so actually that becomes a massive issue around financial fraud and stuff. So we have to continue to be very wily on the ball, being aware of what's out there from NFT marketplaces and social media and all the rest of it, so that we can keep brands safe wherever they are in the world.
Speaker 2:I think up until now it's been relatively easy for us to be able to detect infringements, because infringers are often, you know, a little bit lazy and they'll leave some important element of a product out that enables us to detect real from fake. But I think that that's going to become more and more difficult because now everybody's using AI and it will be really interesting to see how that's being used to make it more difficult to detect infringements online.
Speaker 4:Oh great, Anything else you want?
Speaker 5:to ask. Yeah, I was going to actually just expand a bit on that earlier reflection about how old our laws are. Just none of them built for the digital space and actually just taking that kind of one step further, so they weren't just not built for the digital space. They also weren't built and I think, rachel, you touched on this, they weren't built for out, kind of one step further, so they weren't just not built for the digital space. They also weren't built and I think, rachel, you touched on this, they weren't built for the kind of the international nature, um, the cross-border nature.
Speaker 5:There's such a territorial element to all the ip rights, so there's, there's all these problems and, as we said, you have to change that. And in my world standards, essential patents has a brilliant example where you're trying to enforce patents in one country against telecoms. Basically it's a global product, it doesn't really exist in one place and so people have to kind of fiddle around with the law and make stuff up. But by the same token, I suppose the traditional legal model it's still kind of very much grounded in the physical world. I'd say In terms of you know, we think about ourselves, we're based in a country and we deal with the laws of that country, whereas what you're kind of doing is you're kind of expanding that to almost a digital analogue.
Speaker 5:Digital analogue Is that a complete contradiction? You know what I mean? You're expanding it to kind of a digital version of that, where you're kind of an online law law firm almost, or, sorry, a takedown firm, a fight-fakes online firm, sorry, I just checked my notes. Do you think the old model of kind of having a physical location and being a physically based and physically oriented law firm may be something that we need to think about more broadly? Are you the first?
Speaker 1:No, we're definitely not the first in terms of what we do and in fact, I work with a law firm that I keep saying is based in Glasgow, but in fact they're not based in Glasgow at all.
Speaker 1:There's seven or eight of them and they're all different parts of the country and some of them are in Europe and they do a great job.
Speaker 1:So, and you know, they meet up three or four times a year and I would use them for anything at all in terms of corporate law, ip, trademark registrations, all the rest of it. So they're a relatively small firm. But I mean, I think from our point of view, what matters to us and why we love working through and with IP experts and law firms is that when you're working with a law firm doing what we're doing, you get the opportunity to say you know, we can see there's an issue in the Philippines, could you do something about filing some trademarks there? And that's really wonderful, because we don't do any filings like that. But we often identify that a brand that is trying to expand its export markets has an issue somewhere else, but it needs to clear up that marketplace of the fakes before it really goes in and makes an impact. That's not really answering your question, but the internationalism of it is. I really believe passionately in the power of internationalizing product and export, so I feel very strongly about that kind of thing internationalizing product and export.
Speaker 2:So feel very strongly about that kind of thing and actually there we're quite lucky because there are conventions that exist, like the, the brand convention, to which most countries in the world have, um, our signatory. That means that we can enforce copyright without registration in most, most countries in the world. So that's really powerful tool, um. And then I think, in terms of intellectual property, registered intellectual property, there's things like the Madrid Protocol. There are systems in place which mean that there's that recognition that it's important for intellectual property to be considered not just in one jurisdiction but across multiple.
Speaker 5:I often think that international conventions were kind of slipped in under the radar before ip became as big as it is now. I do wonder whether we'd ever get another international burn convention together or a new kind of international patent system like the pct or even madrid, it's quite. It's worrying me a little bit that maybe that era of international cooperation might be diminishing at the moment, which is not what we need, obviously no, no, burn convention's fantastic, though.
Speaker 4:Three cheers for whoever organized that political hot potato thrown in at the end by william. So one of my, one of my other jobs on the podcast, other than trying to summarize stuff and ask interesting questions, is to keep us to time. Goingwen, and I'm conscious that, um, we're, we're there, we're there about. We always like to ask our guests whether there are any questions that they haven't feel that we've asked or they've not answered. So are you sat there thinking, ah, wish they'd asked us that one any more of the story to tell um, I don't think so.
Speaker 1:I think I would just say if anybody's taking a product to market, please at least register trademarks. I believe passionately in the power of a trademark. I know this is a podcast for patent people in the main and also, if you're registering a patent and a design right hasn't been considered, then design rights are incredibly powerful, particularly online. Jet's a bit of an expert on design rights. I'm not, but that would be my parting comment.
Speaker 2:Definitely take out the bit of me being an expert on design rights. I'm not, but um, that would be my, my parting comment. Definitely take out the bit of me being an expert.
Speaker 1:Well, you know more about them, more eloquently than I do but design rights are very powerful online, yeah, particularly when you're defending a product, because sometimes if a patent if it's page 32, paragraph 6 of a patent that needs to be defended in terms of an infringement, then it may be that the person that you're liaising with doesn't speak the language that the patent was written in and it's very difficult to explain that. So a design right can be a much easier thing to use in defense of a product.
Speaker 2:Yeah, absolutely. I think that would also be my yeah, my parting comment would be to really consider the importance of registered designs. While not inexpensive, they are much more affordable than patents. There's also the advantage of a grace period. In lots of jurisdictions, including the UK and the EU, the speed of protection is, you know, very quick in comparison to other types of IP. And I would say to really consider, you know, getting professional intellectual property advisors advice on this. There's lots of opportunities to have a free 30-minute consultation with an IP lawyer and you know, beyond that, it will be money well spent. If done correctly, registered designs will stand you in good stead.
Speaker 4:That's a really good point and one we don't touch on on the podcast often enough because quite often we don't talk about all strands of IP simultaneously as we've done today. So our members, sipa, we provide introductory clinics, we call them to the world of IP. Those come on 45 minutes to an hour. So exactly what you said there, jet. That's an opportunity for someone who's perhaps new to the world of IP just invented something, just thought something to come along. No obligation, no risk of disclosure, no conflict, just an opportunity to talk to a qualified attorney around sorts of protections that might be available. And it might be that these things aren't well enough known and most of our firms, most of our members who work in firms, will do similar consultations through the firm. So the way into ip doesn't necessarily have to be particularly onerous or expensive and I think you're right. People need to consider it as soon as possible yeah, definitely that's a great little one.
Speaker 4:That's a great little way to end the podcast, but we're not ending the podcast there because you two don't know this. William knows only too well. I have another little job and that's to. While we're talking, sit here thinking about an ingenious, clever question to finish, with which I'm going to throw at Gwilym first, but then it'll come to you two and then he'll very cleverly turn it back on me. So, gwilym, we've been talking a lot about online platforms for buying stuff. I think we all know we're talking kind of like our Amazons and Ebays and those kinds of places. What's the most unexpectedly useful or disappointingly not fit for purpose or just joyous thing you've ever bought from an online platform?
Speaker 5:That's exciting. Oh, it's a bass guitar. It's a bass guitar.
Speaker 4:No, you can't go for a bass guitar.
Speaker 5:Why can't I go for a bass guitar? It was joyous.
Speaker 4:You said joyous yeah, but that did exactly what you were expecting it to do, surely?
Speaker 5:no, because it made me sound like I could play the bass.
Speaker 5:It was brilliant beautiful piece of kit, um, and I made a lovely noise. No it, it was joyous. I bought some kind of strange gadgets oh, avocado, avocado stoners and peelers, you know those funny shaped things. That was a big lockdown for me. I did a lot of avocado that was remarkably versatile Within the avocado kind of you know, sphere. It wasn't really a sphere. Oh God, right, there you go. Sphere. It wasn't really a sphere. Oh God, right, there you go. I feel like I've nailed that one.
Speaker 4:Which of our two victims, I guess, should I go to Rachel? How about you?
Speaker 1:So I have bought a joyous product this year online which has transformed my life and my wardrobe, and it's a wee hoover for jumpers that takes away all the little bobbly bits and I can't tell you how much.
Speaker 2:I love it, I'm gonna debubbler.
Speaker 1:It's called a debubbler a debubbler, absolutely marvelous, and it has completely transformed my wardrobe and it's about to transform everybody's Christmas.
Speaker 4:I can't recommend it highly enough, honestly go on then Jet, you can't do, can't do a deep bubbler obviously no, no, but I I'm with you on that one, rachel.
Speaker 2:Everything I mean I I buy everything from second hand online marketplaces and you know, sometimes you do have to still be careful about issues with counterfeits or fakes. But if you're careful especially if you're avoiding certain brands you can. You can completely avoid buying new by using the likes of ebay or vintage, which is really great. Not only you're getting a good bargain, but you're you're doing your bit for the environment. But we have also seen examples of absolutely horrific things online, um. So yeah, these are the opposite of what you're asking, so not joyous at all, but yeah, you mentioned some horrific examples at the beginning of the podcast, but we've also seen counterfeit life jackets for children, so there are some pretty horrible things out there so we're finished, so we're finished no, we're not.
Speaker 5:You know what you've got to do. Lee, lee out of interest.
Speaker 4:I'm usually this time I didn't have an answer in advance. I've had to sit here thinking about it and I bought probably five or six years ago in a moment of boredom. I like tools, rachel, jet. I'm a kind of I'm a plumber by trade in the dark, distant past and I've never really escaped that sort of practical desire to do stuff.
Speaker 5:He's also not mentioned it on the podcast. So, Lee, that was brilliant because we nearly made it.
Speaker 4:I never knew whether it would work or not, but it's. You know, socket sets that you might use in cars and stuff like loosening nuts and so on. So I bought this very large socket and inside it's just got lots of pins so it fits almost anything. You know, it'll fit a conventional nut, or if you're trying to put one of those like hooks and eyes into a wall, that'll kind of a slot around that. Or if there's something a bit odd like a half broken screw or something, it'll fit around that. It's been a game changer for me. It's pretty much my go-to tool. First and it was like 10 quid on amazon or something like that absolutely transformed my life you can get those if you're arthritic for turning taps, can't you?
Speaker 2:yes, yeah, yeah yeah, my, my dad is a plumber and he always tells the story that I've never actually checked to see if it's true, but he said that a plumber had the idea to put two handles on a children's sippy cup. So yeah, he always uses that as an example of why plumbers are brilliant.
Speaker 4:No, no idea, Possibly, possibly. Thank you both for coming on and telling the Snapdragon story, which is obviously your stories. Thank you, gwilym, for being a genial host once more, and probably should end the podcast just by saying to people if they've listened to this podcast and found it interesting and engaging and why wouldn't you, it was a great story then give us a little recommendation or leave us a comment and then that'll help other people find a podcast. That's it, we're done.
Speaker 1:Thank you so much. It's been an absolute privilege to take part and lovely to meet you both, so thank you. Thank you. Thank you, outro Music.