Two IPs In A Pod
Brilliant inventions, fresh product designs, iconic brand names and artistic creativity are not only the building blocks of successful business - they deliver a better world for us all. But these valuable forms of intellectual property must be protected in order to flourish. We are the Chartered Institute of Patent Attorneys - the UK's largest intellectual property organisation. Our hosts Lee Davies and Gwilym Roberts chat with entrepreneurs, creatives, patent attorneys and the occasional judge about how patents, trade marks, designs and copyright can improve our lives and solve problems for humanity.
Two IPs In A Pod
Shaping the Future of Intellectual Property: Leadership Transitions and Global Policy Insights
Join us for an enlightening conversation with Dana Brown Northcott from Amazon and Etienne Sanz de Acedo from INTA as we explore leadership transitions in the world of intellectual property. Discover how fresh leadership at organizations like the Chartered Institute of Patent Attorneys and INTA, with the likes of Bobby Mukherjee and Elizabeth Stewart Bradley stepping into Presidential roles, is shaping the future of the IP landscape. Our discussion uncovers the challenges and exciting opportunities that arise when new perspectives and agendas come to the forefront, and how these shifts impact member-driven associations.
Lee Davis and Gwilym Roberts are the two IPs in a pod and you are listening to a podcast on intellectual property brought to you by the Chartered Institute of Patent Attorneys.
Speaker 4:We're recording Gwilym. There you go. Sorry, sorry, well done, lee press the button. Yeah, sorry, well done, lee pressed the button. Yeah, I worked out how to press the right button. We probably should explain that we're recording a podcast in person, which is an unusual experience for us, as you said, except in the pub. Except we're in a pub which, unfortunately, we're not in.
Speaker 5:As I jump in ahead, I guess I've already said that we made an early error there. Yeah, no, no, that's um bad tactic, bad tactic, bad tactic and, yeah, terribly um rude, given that we've got guests with us in person as well. So that is exciting. Yeah, how you been. I'm very well, thank you I.
Speaker 3:I told you I got something to talk about very exciting new president change of president emotional emotional scenes last night.
Speaker 4:Yeah, so this, this podcast to go out in about a week's time and Matt will have just a week left of his presidency, and then we have Bobby Mukherjee coming in in January Excellent, and of course not just a change of president but a change of perspective, because Matt very much private practice, big private practice focus, as naturally he would have, but I think it's worked magnificently across all of SIPA's areas of work and Bobby coming in from an industry in-house perspective, so that'll give us a different focus for next year, which is good it's brilliant.
Speaker 5:We always try and take that into account, but it's quite useful to be told what we need to do and farewell to Daniel it's just emotional scenes the whole time.
Speaker 4:So yeah, Daniel, drops off of the officer train Our officers get about three years in the gig. Well, apart from you, you've been an officer forever.
Speaker 5:Forever. Yeah, I predate the. I was here before the charter.
Speaker 3:I'm in it.
Speaker 4:I'm in the original. So yeah, that's all change at SEPA and I think that's for me. That's one of the fascinations about working in the membership association, because you do get this changing of the guard for us annually. I know some people have a longer presidency that but for us annually and it means that my job sort of reinvents itself every year, which is so cool yeah, definitely so.
Speaker 5:Each president seems to come with this not an agenda, but kind of a manifesto manifesto yeah, that's good we need that as well. You need that change, yeah, yeah, everyone should change leadership every year.
Speaker 4:Yeah whoever, whoever, absolutely, countries are Countries, absolutely Countries, countries. Would be a good one, wouldn't it? Not a bad idea.
Speaker 3:Yeah, don't get me started. I don't want to get started on politics. No, that's not politics, it's just a base. It's just too depressing. Shall we bring our guests on.
Speaker 4:Yes, so you and I were very fortunate to go to Inter back in May, yes, and I think we recorded eight or nine podcasts there, tiring, wasn't it at times?
Speaker 5:It was a bit yeah.
Speaker 4:I think we did four or five in one day, which was exhausting, and our colleagues from Inter looked after us magnificently. They did. We really appreciate the opportunity to go there and record the podcast, and so we have Dana and Etienne with us today. Who wants to go there and record the podcast? And so we have Dana and Etienne with us today.
Speaker 1:Who wants to go first? Who?
Speaker 4:wants to introduce themselves first.
Speaker 1:You go. I know I feel like we're playing rock scissors paper, for who introduces themselves first? I'm Dana Brown-Northcott. I'm the Vice President of Intellectual Property at Amazoncom, manage the Trademarks, brands, portfolio, public policy, from time to time, domain names, internet governance and the like. It's a mixed bag. I am also privileged to say that I'm the 2024 INTA president, so I'm so glad to hear that you attended our annual meeting. Hope you had a good time. I had a great time and, as you were reflecting on your organization and change in presidency, we've got the same thing. And so here we are on the where are we? 4th, 5th, 6th December? You'll play us a week time. So you know you could consider me a lame duck at this point, because we will have a change in president on January 1st.
Speaker 4:Oh, you do January 1st as well.
Speaker 1:Yes, she's fantastic. Her name is Elizabeth Stewart Bradley and she is the head of trademarks at Bristol-Myers Squibb, etienne and the like, and INTA are going to be in very good hands with her.
Speaker 2:That's excellent, Etienne introduce yourself, sir Sure. So firstly, willem, thanks so much for having us. Etienne Saint-D'Arthur, inta CEO, and I like very much what you said about you know being a, you know, a ceo of a membership association. You know changing president on a yearly basis, which is, you know, always, you know, an exciting experience. But I like to say that you know the ceo of an organization is always the bad student, is the one that remains, you know the same position and the good students are the presidents who are moving on, so this is where we are I like to think it get away with it again.
Speaker 4:I can reinvent myself and no one remembers how bad I really was the previous year. I've been with Lee as honorary secretary for a long time, lee.
Speaker 5:You just work. You get the best out of everybody. Oh, thank you.
Speaker 4:I don't know if you feel the same, Etienne, but I feel it's a great privilege to be the chief exec of a particular professional membership association and I always describe it to people who sometimes people think it's a bit like being chief exec of a corporate, and it's not. You're more the guardian, aren't you? You're kind of looking after this organization for the members and that's a really sort of privileged place to be. I think it is.
Speaker 2:It is an extremely privileged position to be, you know, and I think it's probably the same that you have here at SIPA, but our members are very passionate about INTA and we are a staff myself included and we take our role very seriously. There's a lot of fun, there's a lot of work, but, yeah, you're kind of the guardian of the organization. You want to make sure that it works well, that it continues evolving on a permanent basis, and what is really a unique experience is the ability of you know, in my case working with incredible staff, with an incredible board of directors, with officers, and with an incoming president every year with kind of a slightly different approach, perspective, ideas, and you learn from everyone.
Speaker 5:I personally love it. What have you learned from Dana?
Speaker 2:Oh, I think she's been, you know.
Speaker 5:Incredible. I'm not saying.
Speaker 2:And she knows it and I'm gonna say to them you know, you know, it was very interesting because the way we we kind of on board the President is, at the beginning of January we have what we call interweek, where we bring all our staff into the office because a lot of people are now working remote and we have the president and the council who are coming as well, kind of introducing themselves, getting to understand better how we work internally. And it was very interesting this back January. So Dana came in and she had so many questions, but so many great and incredible questions that I thought, hmm, that's going to be an interesting year it's going to be different.
Speaker 2:She's going to bring a different perspective, but it's really. You know, it's a joy. And, Dana, what was?
Speaker 4:that experience? Like for you, I did not pay him to say that. But maybe later I'll try to apply in in the way that we do at sepa. So we have a vice president for a year. Progress to be the president and then serve another year as the past president. Is that the same sort of arrangement?
Speaker 1:yes, it is, but we also have a longer officer track so we have a secretary, a treasurer, two vice presidents oh wow and then the president is in a non-voting capacity and is able to participate in board meetings for, I think, two years at the end Was it three years and then roll off, but more as an advisor to keep things level, but not necessarily someone who controls strategy.
Speaker 4:So it's more figurehead than leadership, perhaps.
Speaker 5:There is also if know.
Speaker 2:If I may, no, please. What I think is really nice is that with every president there is a very strong, very solid interaction that has been prepared prior to the presidential year. And then we have weekly meetings. We discuss a lot of things and we're always thinking how can we improve the organization? What are we going to be doing? Of course, you know many people just see, at INTA annual meeting, leadership meeting, there is much, much more. I mean, here we're now on a kind of what we call a delegation and we've done quite a few of those delegations where, you know, we travel together with some key staff, we meet members in different countries, but we also meet a lot of you know policymakers, you know heads of IP offices. So there is there is really a bound that is created over time and and a lot of trust and a lot of working together cool.
Speaker 4:So it's a core leadership meeting yeah, yeah co-leadership, if I may say when should we start. I'd quite like to talk about the conference. Do you call it a conference?
Speaker 3:Inter Is that what it?
Speaker 4:is Because it's a big old gig, isn't it?
Speaker 5:It was your first one and my second it was my first one.
Speaker 4:Yeah, thumbly enjoyable, hugely exhausting because it's so large. Just to walk around is exhausting, isn't it? How do you put that together? How, how much work goes into that uh well, it's a lot of work.
Speaker 2:We're extremely fortunate to have a very professional team that is looking into the kind of operational side of things, but also, you know, putting the right context so that it's meaningful to the members. And yeah, I mean uh, so you said, your first one was this year okay, was it plant up which was which?
Speaker 5:I went to Barcelona a few years ago. Okay, 2017. Yeah, Good.
Speaker 2:So you know, it's about 10,000 to 12,000 attendees from all around the world, so it's a massive event.
Speaker 5:It's like a lower league football game, but for a week.
Speaker 2:Depends which team you are. But yeah, it's. We kind of.
Speaker 2:You know, we start planning the annual meeting, in terms of the venue, at least three to five years in advance, Because you need to find, you know, the right spot and you know there are a lot of, you know issues that need to be looked at and then, in terms of the programming for the meeting, it's about, I would say, between 14 to 18 months preparatory work. So it's a lot of work. So by the time you know we get there, we're all already exhausted, but very excited about it and already doing the next one as well. So kind of, yeah, permanently, but very excited about it and already doing the next one as well.
Speaker 4:Yeah, kind of yeah, the next three to five Permanently planning. We have an annual conference, and so ours is largely driven by volunteers, so it's our members that drive the content.
Speaker 3:Clearly, we have a staff team who look after the logistics and everything.
Speaker 4:But yeah so it's a year in the planning. We deliver the conference and the next day they're thinking about next year's.
Speaker 1:It's way they're thinking about next year's. It's absolutely the same, really truly the same, and we take the learnings from before and then we move on. Something that I really like about annual meeting is that there's there's something for everyone, really truly. You're either connecting with your in-house folks, you're meeting outside council that you want to hire in a particular jurisdiction or work through an issue. The content is very rich and at every level, and so you know, entry trademark attorneys can come and learn something new. Those who've been practicing for a long time can have a different strategic conversation about what they've learned in their practice. And so it is not, you know, it's not all parties. It's a lot of learning, it's a lot of CLE, it's a lot of making connections and, as a result, it makes everything better. But, lee, to your point, we are a member-driven organization, and so the needs and what it is that we're hoping to achieve coming out of the conference is member-driven bottoms up.
Speaker 2:How many members? How many members? About 6,500 organizations. Organizations, so it's companies and firms, and I would say we have about 30,000 to 35,000 individuals who are somehow involved in the activities of the association Through those company affiliations.
Speaker 2:So yeah, I mean through those either company or firm affiliations, and then we're very much committee-driven. So we have about 120 between committees and subcommittees. Now, not every individual gets into a committee. We have about 4,500 individuals who are on committees. Some are more active than others, so that's basically the membership of INTA. I mean, here in the UK we have about 260 firms. We have, if I remember correctly, 57 corporations that are members and I would say the UK practitioners are very active within INTA.
Speaker 4:Are you going to see all of those while you're here?
Speaker 1:We'd have to stay many, many months in order to do that.
Speaker 5:Yeah, my firm sent sent. I think all of our trademark partners are in new orleans recently.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, we had our leadership meeting. We take it super seriously.
Speaker 5:So I'm a patent attorney, okay, um, so you know there's no p in inter, but I think, I think that it's becoming the ip hub, not only, only the organisation we can get to that, but certainly that meeting is becoming potentially not just the trademark hub meeting but possibly the IP hub meeting.
Speaker 3:We can certainly work so.
Speaker 5:I'm going on the right tracks because I'm basically, if you're one, in Atlanta. I basically reached out to my US clients and said can I visit you or we can meet at Intune. Yeah, we'll come to Atlanta and suddenly I had all my meetings, all my get-togethers in one place. And this is all. Patent clients, basically.
Speaker 2:But we've got to trade my game, or maybe, but you know. But no, you're absolutely right, will. There is no D in Inter, but we do designs. There is no C in Inter, but we do copyrights. There is no D, but we do data privacy.
Speaker 4:Do you need some branding advice?
Speaker 2:I think you know INTA has been evolving over time and that was a kind of you know, I think it was a good decision and it was a smart move from the board of directors and the idea was we need to look at IP more from a more kind of holistic approach and really looking at all kind of IP rights. It's true that you know not really into patents, but even today you know you need to look at all IP rights somehow with some level of connection. And to your point, yes, there are quite a few patent attorneys that come to our annual meeting, to the point that little by little, we've been adding some sessions that are not necessarily purely patent-related but have some connections with patents, and they're well attended. We have a patent reception at INTA annual meeting already for years and I've seen 400 or 500 patent attorneys at that reception.
Speaker 5:So, yes, that's a fact, that's happening. Next question we can cut if?
Speaker 3:you don't like it.
Speaker 5:So who are your competitors on the patent side in terms of providing that global hub? So we don't look at anyone as a competitor.
Speaker 2:That's a starting point and I'm not trying to be politically correct.
Speaker 2:I think, we truly believe that we all need to work together because it's all about IP and it's all about promoting IP. I think you know the beauty of you know what we have today is that each organization has kind of its niche. For example, if we look at global IP organizations, I would immediately think about AIPPI. They're great. They're perhaps a little more academic than what INTA is. That doesn't mean that INTA is not doing a very strong, solid academic work, but we're initially we're an association of brand owners and that remains kind of the focus of INTA. So this is where you know there is a nuance. And then, of course, you know you have more regional organizations, you have more global organizations, you have national organizations. What we like to do is really to interact with all of those as much as possible. We might not be always aligned on everything, but at least the bottom line should be the same.
Speaker 1:If I can pile on to that, and this is something that Etienne emphasizes a lot, and this is something that Etienne emphasizes a lot, but as a professional brand owner association. The role of an IP professional is not silent not necessarily anymore and so it's important to think of ourselves as not a four-letter acronym. But I don't know, etienne, how many other letters you listed out. You said that, william. You said we needed a longer acronym.
Speaker 5:It's true, I've got PINDACT. Tell me about it. We need some help you said that, William.
Speaker 4:you said we needed a longer acronym. It's true, I've got PINDACT. How is that? Tell me about it.
Speaker 1:We need some help with rebranding, but we are more because the role of the IP professional is changing and needs to do more.
Speaker 4:Yeah, so any exciting news about where we might find the inter-annual meeting in the future?
Speaker 3:Is there anything you can share with us? Breaking?
Speaker 2:news on the 26th, I don't remember. No, the only thing I can tell you is we and this is public we're planning to go to Dubai. I think for good reasons, we decided to move that meeting to 2029. Still committed to go to Dubai because the region is booming from an IP perspective and it's extremely important, but it was probably better for all our members to kind of, you know, wait a little more and delay that. That, of course, has opened a spot for 2026.
Speaker 2:There are many options still on the table, heard, many of them, like you probably have, because this is why you're asking that question, like you probably have, because this is why you're asking that question. What I would say as well is you know any of those venues, and any venue we pick is normally, you know, a great city to INTA, is a great host, but there are a lot of parameters that we need to consider, and one of the important parameters is to get you know a sufficiently big hotel block. Yeah, that is, you know, that can accommodate, you know, our community. Now, when members are trying to guess that in advance and are trying and are putting the names out there, that is making our life more difficult to sign those contracts, and that's basically, is increasing the price of the hotel rooms, so it goes against the interest of the members. Now, it's very difficult for me to explain to every individual who's asking me what should is increasing the price of the hotel rooms, so it goes against the interest of the members. Now, it's very difficult for me to explain to every individual who's asking me what should be. You know so, but trust us, it will be.
Speaker 2:You know, a great venue. What we do as well and that's again, you know, something that was agreed by the board is that every third year, we're bringing our annual meeting outside North America, and that's something that we're keeping as a kind of rule because we think it's a great opportunity to interact with, you know, potential new members, new constituencies. We weren't in Singapore. We perhaps lost some of you know Europeans or North Americans in terms of attendance, but instead we had, you know, quite a few new attendees from Asia, and that's always interesting, as any organization we need to think about. You know, growth and you know what's the future about.
Speaker 5:So what are you predicting, lee? I'm going based on everything you said. I would love to do predictions.
Speaker 4:Just explain to us.
Speaker 5:Everything I'm hearing is pointing towards Abergavenny. That's what I'm hearing is pointing towards Abergavenny.
Speaker 3:That's what I'm picking up.
Speaker 5:I don't want to move the hotel market in Abergavenny, but you know, heads up, it's three bed and breakfast, isn't it? Yeah, you'll be cramming a lot of people into the bedrooms in Abergavenny. Well, don't book that flight now In the meantime, focus on San Diego.
Speaker 1:Book your flight for San Diego. It's just. It's always a fantastic conference San Diego, so much to offer and it also has really great attendance, so you'll see the majority of the clients there.
Speaker 4:So it enters more than an annual meeting though, isn't it? So what else is on your radar? What other exciting things are you doing?
Speaker 1:Oh, so many exciting things, yeah, for the listeners.
Speaker 3:Etienne just pointed to me and I gave a big smile like where is it that we start?
Speaker 1:well, let's go back to a little bit of what Etienne was was saying throughout the year that the presidents and board members in Etienne and Heather Steinmeier, who's the director of policy for for INTA we have a number of delegations, and so in in that we're interacting with officials that are in certain countries, as well as our members, and forming different relationships with those folks who are all interested in working towards IP. This year, I've had the privilege of going to let's see if I can check my passportonesia, japan, france I did go to spain brussels, brazil, india help me at the end. Now it's all going bonkers we were just in germany.
Speaker 3:There's some wild hand waving of here.
Speaker 1:Here we are in the uk. This. This is my last delegation, and so we're saving the best for last, but that has been truly a big focus of the year is our policy engagement, which is wonderful. Back to being a member-driven organization, the committees are meeting monthly. The work doesn't only happen at the annual meeting or leadership. All of those folks are bringing up issues, working on projects. And then we have four board meetings a year where we're getting the board buy-in and focus on strategy.
Speaker 4:How many?
Speaker 3:members 36 members.
Speaker 2:Two-thirds are corporate members and one-third are what we call associates, so external councils, and we try to have. We have a very global composition of the board, so we make sure to have representatives from North America, europe, africa, middle East, asia, latin America all around the world.
Speaker 5:That's very exciting. So you mentioned you going around and actually there's policy as part of your role, to go out there and get that policy across and I'm so relieved to hear that it's kind of a global policy, Because I think that's what the world definitely needs at the moment is kind of non-partisan what's in the best interests of brand owners and the IP system. But you need a global view on that because if it's national, then there's national interests.
Speaker 2:Well, we take a lot of pride in really defending global positions and I always say we never take the, you know, the position of one single company, one single industry sector or one single company, and we pay a lot of attention to that. And in fact, you know, a lot of people talk about the annual meeting and you know, and people having fun, etc. As Dana was saying, there is a lot of very serious work that is done by the committees throughout the year. Those committees put together recommendations, position papers, resolutions. Proposal from a committee then is kind of, you know, checked by other committees that are kind of relevant to the subject matter. It goes to the group for approval, it then goes to the executive committee for discussion and it finally goes to the board for approval and if the board is not comfortable with that, the resolution goes back down and you need to rework this, this and that. So you know, every time INTA is taking a position, it's a very solid one.
Speaker 2:Now we do in terms of policy matters. You know and I'm going to perhaps focus a little more on trademarks now, but I could talk about designs, I could talk about copyrights, I could talk about many other IP rights. We, of course we look at many issues. First, we continue defending international harmonization, which is absolutely critical. So that's number one, and harmonization is not just about the treaties, it goes far beyond that.
Speaker 2:We of course internet governance is a big issue and really defending IP interests when it comes to internet, I think it's very important. Of course, we look into enforcement and counterfeiting issues. We're also very much concerned by brand restrictions and we're more and more concerned about, for example, trade wars and how is that going to be affecting IP? We look at the impact of technology on IP. Now we're working on a position on AI. There are 15 INTA committees that are working on that position. So you know, there's a lot of work that is being done and a lot of reports that are being produced by INTA. And then, you know, when we go on those delegations, it's precisely to kind of you know, share that kind of you know, knowledge and those kind of positions, and we think it's very helpful to the members and it's really, you know, defending the IP industry.
Speaker 1:Why don't you talk a little bit more about the position papers that we had before, because I think that would be really interesting to your users.
Speaker 5:Yeah.
Speaker 4:IP in space.
Speaker 5:Yes, Right, that one there.
Speaker 2:So we, let's say, on the one side we're looking at position papers and resolutions on the more kind of traditional legal staff, but we also like to, you know, look at ourselves as a forward thinking organization that is thinking a little out of the box, understanding as well how the profession is evolving, how the industry is evolving. So we put together, for instance, a set of think tanks which were looking at what's the role of the in-house department of the future, what's the role of the IP law firm of the future and what should be the role of the IP office of the future. This is something that we did about four years ago. There's been additional iterations for some of those, particularly the one of the IP Office of the future. But at the same time we do that, we also like to look at, for example, impact of technology on IP.
Speaker 2:So we did kind of a set of position papers on metaverse and IP, nfts and IP, and then we did something that was a little more crazy idea, which was about IP protection in the outer space, and the idea was very simple. You know, we're seeing more and more kind of commercial missions going to the moon and trying to reach Mars. We know that there is already something about patents, but only covering, you know, the International Space Station, with some kind of very basic rules, but there is nothing else about other IP rights. So we put together a group of about 12 to 14 experts from all around the world some INTA members, some non-INTA members, some, of course, ip professionals, some non-IP professionals and we asked them to brainstorm and come with a set of recommendations, and so we published a paper that, when then we hand over to WIPO, saying that's something that you might want to consider for the future, just one example.
Speaker 4:I'm trying to think Is this sort of trademark the moon? I can yeah.
Speaker 5:I mean, if you fly to the moon now and open up a McDonald's, you probably don't have to get a license from McDonald's.
Speaker 1:Why don't you read the paper?
Speaker 4:first I'll tell you what. That's the answer.
Speaker 5:That is a really interesting topic. But, if I can, I'm glad you're also doing the internet, because you know how we know more about outer space than we do our own ocean.
Speaker 4:Yeah.
Speaker 5:I think we also know more about outer space than we do about the internet. I'm really pleased to hear that you're looking at internet governance, because that is, we need to get long before we sort out space, which is really important. Don't get me wrong, but I think the internet is absolute wild west, completely out of control. There's different levels of that, but I'm interested to know what are the hot topics in internet governance side of things.
Speaker 1:We really couldn't agree with you more.
Speaker 5:I'm an ITA, sorry. I saw you putting Amazon to the other side.
Speaker 1:As ITA members, we really couldn't agree with you more. We have long been involved in ICANN. Another Internet.
Speaker 1:Governance Forums. But ICANN is certainly an important one and one where we need more openness and transparency and predictability, for sure. But, as you probably know but I'll just help a little bit for some of your users who might not know the International Corporation of Assigned Names and Numbers is a member-driven, bottom-up organization, also a non-profit, that has a number of constituencies, an intellectual property constituency. Every government, including the UK government, has an advisor. There are registrars, registries, other non-profits, other academics, so everybody is exchanging ideas, but with a very different view, and so it's critical that we're part of that conversation. So as we talk about domain name abuse, as we talk about anti-counterfeiting on the internet, we're there representing the rights of IP professionals, saying these are the things that are concerning to us, and that, in turn, helps inform the academics, helps inform the different governments of what the priorities of business are.
Speaker 5:I had an interesting insight on that when I was traveling in Asia. I went to an Asian country and they wanted me to get a visa. And they said you can get a visa online. So I typed in country visa and I got five different websites, each saying that they were the official website. And I remember thinking gosh, that's what the trademark system started at, wasn't it? It was an indication of origin, and the internet hasn't got it. You just don't really know who you're talking to. So that seems to be such a fundamental problem with the internet at the moment that I don't know how to solve it. By the way, I'm assuming that's significantly on your radar, but I don't know.
Speaker 1:Well, if you can solve it, certainly let us know. We can use your guidance, but we also need a lot more dialogue there, and so I'd encourage everybody listening to certainly get involved. I mean share your views about how ip should exist on the internet I've got more.
Speaker 4:Oh, can you keep going? Yeah, I'm just looking at our I know we can't do comparative notes online. It's been difficult.
Speaker 5:So I'm just on getting that policy together with a whole bunch of different countries and and I think that's great it's going to pull out so many. It's going to remove so many outlying national interests that don't really help an international debate. Conversely, you've got so many voices and we have this in a very small way with SEPA as well. You've got different points of view and you're trying to come up with a policy position. Do you end up with very neutral positions in the end? Are you able to take strong stances, or is there always a voice somewhere that pushes you back away from being too adventurous?
Speaker 2:I think we do. I think we do. It's not always easy. You know. Finding compromises is always, you know, a complex issue. Sometimes we upset a little some of our constituencies, which is not ideal, but you know it's, one day it's going to be for you, the other day it's going to be for me. I think we need to be very respectful of all our different constituencies and all our different, you know, industry interests and we can probably continue doing a better job listening to all and making sure that all are part of the conversation, which is already the case. But you know, sometimes there's been, you know, some kind of positions that have been a little more controversial internally than others. That happens.
Speaker 1:I think the word that Etienne just said there that's super important to underline is conversation. There's very rich dialogue and there are a lot of very smart people who are focused in every committee on bringing forward what's best for IP owners overall and said just that particular position. Yeah, and so it's that, yes, the deep conversation is the deep focus, is a deep listing that I think overall gets int resolutions to the right result don't you listen to it locally as well?
Speaker 1:because I'm not you trying to come to the right result and you listen to it globally as well, because everyone knows you're trying to come to the right result.
Speaker 5:That's right.
Speaker 2:And in fact, you know, I would add to what Dana just mentioned this is what gives us so much credibility globally with policymakers and with governments, because they can perfectly see that, you know, on occasions in a given country, we're not taking the position that the local practitioners might be defending. So you know, it's not that we're kind of, you know, self-defending our industry, the IP industry. No, we're really looking at promoting IP to protect the brand owners, the owners of the IP rights, but to equally protect the consumers.
Speaker 4:Yeah, so that's something we tried to do here. So in recent years we've had to. We don't tend to use the word rights, but to equally protect the consumers. Yeah, so that's something we tried to do here. So in recent years we've had to. We don't tend to use the word lobbying, but kind of campaign on a number of issues, and actually you have a more authentic voice if you're not talking about your members as practitioners, but using your members' voices to talk about the broader world.
Speaker 3:So what does this mean?
Speaker 4:for society. What does this mean for the economy? What does this mean for business, rather than? What does this mean for vested interest?
Speaker 2:Yeah, but I think, lee, on that one, I think what is really important, we all kind of have some kind of, you know, legal background, or we've been practitioners or we're practitioners, but you know, we need to think and speak the language of the industry and we need to talk about economy, we need to talk about growth, we need to talk about jobs, we need to talk about welfare, we need to talk about innovation, and IP is critical to innovation and that is really what resonates Actually touching on the consumer, the public angle.
Speaker 5:You've got counterfeiting as another of your big platforms. Very important, of course. Out of interest. Is that more of a consumer protection angle? Is that brand-only protection angle or do they become the same thing? It's both.
Speaker 2:It's both. Yeah, it's both. I mean it's consumer protection, for sure. But you know, counterfeiting is also, you know, defending the interests of the companies. But the companies are the first ones that want their consumers to feel safe and comfortable. So you know, that's why it's both.
Speaker 5:We had that podcast recently about the baby seat.
Speaker 3:Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 5:And there's a huge counterfeiting issue and there's no depth to which the counterfeiters won't sink.
Speaker 4:And for me, the lesson in that podcast. This was a lady that then went on to create a novel approach to identifying counterfeiting and tackling it.
Speaker 4:So having experienced it in her own, business she then looked at sort of strategies for tackling it online, but it was I'm sure she won't mind me saying this it wasn't an obvious. It was a baby chair. It was a way of securing a baby into a chair. If you haven't got a high chair, it's not the most obvious thing that you would counterfeit. And that's what I find extraordinary about counterfeiting is everything seems to be fair game. Now it's very scary.
Speaker 2:You're patent people. What's the value of a patent if the product can be counterfeited?
Speaker 3:Yeah.
Speaker 2:And we see that as. Ip professionals. But it's not just about IP professionals, it's about innovation.
Speaker 5:It's about research and development. It's about jobs. It's about the economy. For me, that's one, yeah, which is actually so. Dana, reflections on your year achievements, things you wish you could have got done, jobs for elizabeth so many jobs for elizabeth, I'm making a long list.
Speaker 1:Uh, yeah, I should stop asking questions of the organization, because then I then I make a different list of priorities. Reflections on the year. How much time do you have?
Speaker 4:Technically we've got about five, six minutes.
Speaker 2:And I'm going to be taking notes, by the way.
Speaker 5:It's not something like our Etienne is.
Speaker 1:obviously it is yes, etienne is extraordinary. I think that few people see how strategic he is, how much of a political operator, how he understands the global economy, how it all fits together and why this matters to brand professionals and consumers, and so the organization is very, very lucky to have him. And again, he did not pay me to say that You're a great double act, but we're still having beer.
Speaker 3:That's right.
Speaker 1:Folks should really, truly understand that the organization is in good hands as a result of Etienne's leadership. Other reflections on the year there's so much work to do, you know, on behalf of IP professionals, that I think we're only just cracking the surface, and if we think about fit for purpose, three to five to seven years on, there's a lot of forward thinking that needs to be done, and I think that INTA is leading the way. You know, we highlighted IP in space. We're thinking about novel IP rights. There's much more to be done.
Speaker 1:But something else that has really surprised me is the depth of commitment amongst our members that we've been meeting along the way. I just, you know, gave a list of the countries that I've been to. I wasn't able to go everywhere this year. We all split things up. Etienne has been to China two or three times. We really, truly cover the world, and I was struck on our visit to India in October at the involvement at the committee level by so many folks in that country. The weight of that, the commitment of that, is really extraordinary, and so that's something that has stuck with me. There's so much more than what you see in a annual meeting.
Speaker 4:Can I just sort of develop Willem's question a wee bit One of the things that we've tried to do at CIPA and we've been successful in doing. Historically, if you look back at the past, the presidency was seen as something that perhaps one would take on towards the end of a career. So it's moving towards retirement, or in the earliest sort of years of retirement. You do your year as SIPA president when you can be the kind of the leader, the figurehead and that kind of thing. In recent years, certainly in my time here we've tried to move it towards something that people can do whilst they are still working, and I'm conscious that you've done that. So you've you've had a your time as a working president. How have you found that the balance? Because you've still had a day job to do, yeah, I really don't like the word balance because it implies there's a equivalency all the way across the board.
Speaker 4:Balance doesn't always mean you get it right a little bit more harmony, like an opera.
Speaker 1:You hear some more trumpets, sometimes you hear more guitar. Well, you know, interests are very aligned. I've been at Amazon for 17 years. I've been an INTA member for 24. It is my INTA involvement, what I've learned at INTA, that has helped, you know, shape the IP strategy of our company, and I look to INTA to help train some of our early team members on, you know, how is it that the law actually works internationally and why? And so this has been great for us because it's, you know, opened our eyes a little bit more to what is going on globally. That's for sure. But in terms of the, you know, the harmony or the balance, a lot of the interests are most certainly aligned.
Speaker 1:And then you fill the cracks where you can yeah and hopefully you know, take that long-term focus of what's the, the three-year plan, work backwards from that to mechanize that and that helps you remain organized in both places.
Speaker 4:But I will say that I I've not done it incredibly elegantly I am I'll speak out of turn because I shouldn't speak for my sort of current and past presidents, and actually william will have a perspective on this as well I what I've seen in secret presidents who are also working, is that in their day jobs they've also become more strategic, so that they've been able to take from the presidency this exposure on a kind of a national and international scale and take that back into the day job, and I'm pretty sure most of them have become more strategic in their thinking and more statesmanman statesperson-like.
Speaker 4:Is that something you've found? Has it enhanced your job?
Speaker 5:You're very statesperson-like, we think. I think we'll see.
Speaker 1:Ask me again in a year or two and then we'll see. But to your initial point, traditionally we saw people at the end of their career. Hopefully I'm just getting going. There's so much more work to do.
Speaker 4:There was nothing hidden in my question. I don't think so.
Speaker 2:If I may you know and witnessing quite a few presidents you know by now, I think you know and talking about you, this past year, you know, dana has been an extremely engaged president, and this is what we need as an organization. That I enjoy as a CEO, because you need presidents who challenge you. You need presidents that give you ideas, that provide you feedback, that care about the organization, and this is the beauty of INTA presidents they really care about the organization, they care about the members. It's all in good faith and it's how can we do better, and this is really highly motivational for you know all the staff, myself included.
Speaker 1:We all learn from each other, so remarkably so. I talked earlier about the officer track being about five years.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:And so you really work with. You know past presidents for five years, yeah, and so you really work with you. Know past presidents for five years and now we're working with who's coming for the next five, and that gives a lot of consistency to the organization but also a lot of good, deep conversation about where should we go and why should we go there and how do you get that?
Speaker 4:um, so one of our challenges always is to rejuvenate. So we have a council, not a board, but it's a similar governance organ. In that sense, for me, one of the challenges is to for that to renew itself, so perhaps for people to realize it's time to move on and to encourage other people to come in. How'd you get that right? How'd you get that move out?
Speaker 2:you know, at IATA it's an extremely well-oiled machinery. So you know, we were mentioning before that the board is composed of 36 directors. Two-thirds are corporates and one-third are firms. Then what happens is that one-third of the board is rotating every year because the board term is three years. So you know, there is a permanent kind of you know evolution.
Speaker 4:And on those three years they have to drop off or they could restand.
Speaker 2:No no.
Speaker 2:So after three years they drop off yeah yeah, they drop off and then the officers, as Dana was saying, are on a kind of longer track. But there is a good reason for that because you need to get prepared to become president of the association and you're a committee member. You're kind of, you know, identified as a potential leader. You become potentially a subcommittee leader, then you become a committee vice chair and then you become a committee chair, and after doing that is when perhaps you're being identified by the nominating committee as a potential candidate to sit on the board one day, and so that's the way it's working. It's quite well organized.
Speaker 4:So I'm conscious. So I'm conscious of time. One of my jobs is to be timekeeper, isn't it? It's much easier when you're in the same space. It's so much easier to control the time. We've asked you lots of questions. Are you sat there thinking thank god they didn't ask us that one is there anything you want to give us.
Speaker 2:We're not hiding anything, so you can ask whatever you want. You asked me about annual meeting.
Speaker 5:Yeah, what else? I did have one more question in that case, because I've seen you with lots of presents who's your? Favorite?
Speaker 3:oh no, that's good to put him on the line, elizabeth no, I would say it's again.
Speaker 2:It's. It's a real pleasure. But, like you said, lee, you know, having you know a kind of new president every year is a great experience. But, more importantly, the ability of working with the officers and with the incoming presidents for a set of years is absolutely delightful.
Speaker 3:We have the best job in the world, don't we?
Speaker 2:We have a very nice job. I don't know whether it's the best in the world, but it's a great job. And what is really nice and I suppose it happens as well with you guys but you know, we become real friends. I mean there is a lot of you know, we spend a lot of time together, we go on delegations, we work on difficulty issues, so there is really, you know, it truly is a big family.
Speaker 4:So we're coming towards the end, okay, and you're not going to give us any more. We've worked out that there's no quick giveaway that's coming. So Gwilym and I do this thing Always easier to do when we're on Zoom, because we can, in the chat bar we can drop one other suggestions and things we're quite like. Ending on a bit of a tangential question that maybe isn't too related to um, to what's been going on in the conversation itself, but there's a little bit of a connection. I've got one. I don't know if it's going to work, so let's play mine out, and if you've got anything better, we can do that. Okay, let's look. Well, let's do mine first.
Speaker 5:So I've is cufflinks okay, so yeah so.
Speaker 4:So for the listeners, it's a pair of yellow ducks, much like the ducks that I've got in my bath at home. So the way this works is I ask grillum, we'll ask you the same question, and then grillum will throw it back at me what's your most unusual item of clothing? That that you occasionally wear?
Speaker 5:oh, I've actually got a really cool leather jacket that I bought ironically about 15 years ago for a fancy dress party and it's a 1970s brown leather jacket massive lapels, big buttons on it. It's german, it's called echte leder written inside. I don't know where it came from, germany it was. And a cow yes. Right, we've kind of narrowed it down anyway, but um, and I got it from a vintage shop and I wore it ironically to this party, the 70s party, and now it's the trendiest piece of clothing I've got and I can't wear it because my kids keep pinching it. So that's my esoteric piece of clothing. I know you're going to have something horrible, so we'll come to you later.
Speaker 4:So, etienne, other than your sort of sparkling choice in cufflinks and I imagine you've got a variety of couple, I imagine I'm guessing it's your thing anything else you'd like to share with us?
Speaker 2:yeah, well, I mean those, you know those kind of ducks.
Speaker 2:They're my daughter's favorite ones so you know, she's always telling me that take them with you and uh, and I like that, I like to be a little provoked. I'm a very classical person but I like to have a little touch of you know, provocation. You know, today I forgot my pink fountain pen, but normally I'm having a very flashy pink fountain pen and now I've become a little more boring over time. But in the past I used to really like wearing pink trousers, orange trousers, light green, always with then grey or blue, so that kind of little contrast. I can see where your question is going.
Speaker 1:While you were talking about your leather jacket, I was immediately thinking about my ugly Christmas sweater collection.
Speaker 5:Oh, collection I do collection.
Speaker 1:I do know that you also have ugly Christmas sweater parties here in the UK, but my collection is building and so for that everybody should be worried.
Speaker 5:Everybody wants to have crown jewels.
Speaker 1:Oh, I have a fantastic green one with a Christmas tree on it where the Christmas ornaments light up.
Speaker 4:That's very good, oh cool it's quite dizzy, it's nice.
Speaker 5:Lee, can we not do shoes, or is it going to?
Speaker 4:be shoes. No, it's not going to be shoes. Oh, excellent.
Speaker 5:I was just thinking of not do shoes, or is it going to be shoes? No, it's not going to be shoes. Oh, excellent, just so you know these shoes. Oh my golly, golly go.
Speaker 4:I have quite a line of outrageous shoes. Usually they come out you haven't been fired by CPAP. No, no, no. Well, it's taken them a long time to get used to it, but now it's expected at conferences ah, ok plus walk on music.
Speaker 5:I always come on to walk-on music.
Speaker 4:But the other thing. So when I was getting into the sort of what does it mean to be a chief exec? So this was in Job Before Zip-Up, I did a little bit of coaching with a lady and she was brilliant. And so she said, as a chief exec, particularly if you do public speaking, I do a fair bit of it. You need to point the difference. So you trousers and your cupboards. So mine is not perhaps close, but it's my stick. So I carry a very long stick. You've seen my stick. I carve them. I make them myself, so carve a spiral up it. My current one's got an old mascot off of one of my first Jags. That's got a Jag on top, but I'll say my current one. It was put in the storage area where all the stuff was coming back to sleep, but when we got back someone had taken it and it was my pride and joy.
Speaker 5:I'm sorry. I mean, somebody loved your stick. I'll make another one.
Speaker 4:I keep looking on eBay because it's so obviously mine. If it appears on eBay I'll recognise it and it's just search for jaguar walking stick. But I've not yet, I'm not yet seeing it yeah, so I was back in the house, yeah yeah, do you want to do your question or no?
Speaker 4:no, we're good, we're good, we're good, okay. Oh, thank you both. So much for for coming in and showing your toddlers. Hopefully you've enjoyed it. Uh, we like, we like these. We like these things to be enjoyable. Uh, how much more time we've got in the uk till well, sunday for me and I think for you as well, sunday for me as well. And then back home. Yeah, the tour is finished, back home for Christmas.
Speaker 3:What time for Pine Lab?
Speaker 2:Unfortunately not. We would love to, but we have to meet corporate members. So you know, we are kind of, you know, back to back.
Speaker 3:But you know what We'll?
Speaker 2:do that in San Diego A rain check.
Speaker 1:Rain check. Well, actually, not a rain check for San Diego, but a sun check for San. Diego, I know for sure, but we'll take you up on it.
Speaker 4:That's a wrap. All we need to say is, if you've listened to the podcast and you've enjoyed it in the way that we enjoy making them, leave us a little review on the podcasting platform of your choice, and that will mean even more people will find it, and we very much hope that you'll take the podcast back with you and share it in the intercommunity. Absolutely, we'll do that.
Speaker 1:Thank you so much, thank you for the invitation Bye.