Two IPs In A Pod
Brilliant inventions, fresh product designs, iconic brand names and artistic creativity are not only the building blocks of successful business - they deliver a better world for us all. But these valuable forms of intellectual property must be protected in order to flourish. We are the Chartered Institute of Patent Attorneys - the UK's largest intellectual property organisation. Our hosts Lee Davies and Gwilym Roberts chat with entrepreneurs, creatives, patent attorneys and the occasional judge about how patents, trade marks, designs and copyright can improve our lives and solve problems for humanity.
Two IPs In A Pod
EDI Unplugged: Exploring Equality, Diversity, and Inclusion
Join us for an enlightening episode as we explore the multifaceted theme of Equality, Diversity, and Inclusion (EDI) within the patent profession. Hosted by Lee Davis and Gwilym Roberts, we are thrilled to have guests Greg Iceton and Alexandra Wood share their insights and experiences, shedding light on important EDI concepts and their impact on modern workplaces.
In this episode, we unpack the difference between equality and equity, clearing common misconceptions and emphasizing their roles in fostering an inclusive culture. Our discussion dives into personal narratives highlighting social mobility challenges faced by professionals in the field. You'll hear how these experiences have shaped the EDI Committee's efforts to break the mold and take actionable steps to improve the landscape.
We celebrate the strides made in council meetings and the evolving conversations surrounding EDI, as well as practical strategies organizations can implement to enhance their inclusivity efforts. The energy of this dialogue is complemented by a touch of humor, making what can be a sensitive topic both engaging and relatable for all our listeners.
Lee Davis and Gwilym Roberts are the two IPs in a pod and you are listening to a podcast on intellectual property brought to you by the Chartered.
Speaker 2:Institute of Patent Attorneys.
Speaker 4:Gwilym another podcast. How are you? I love them. I'm very well. How are you Well, even after all these years and all these many podcasts? You, I love them, I'm very well. How are you well, even after all?
Speaker 5:these years and all these many podcasts, you still love them. I'll have to take a deep breath just before we start and then we get into the role and rolling and it's it's wrong, it's a rollout I mean, they have just become getting some really nice people on, interesting people on, and having a conversation with them, haven't they?
Speaker 4:that's which is great, honestly the last few have been actually quite a blast, and I've totally forgotten it was a podcast which could be a bit dangerous I mean, that is that is truly dangerous, isn't it that you do you do forget that you're here to properly record something that will go out to other people to listen, and and that you're not just down the pub with mates, which obviously sometimes we are when we're podcasting, and we really must do one of those again soon.
Speaker 5:Can we not do all of them like that Honestly? It's just a great reason to ask.
Speaker 4:It would be lovely to do so, but you're so rarely in the UK these days.
Speaker 5:That's not entirely. I'm in Spain at the moment with the family I think I've mentioned before the in-laws down by Cartagena, near Alicante in southern Spain. So all very exciting.
Speaker 4:So the only time the only thing I know about Cartagena is wasn't it in Romance in the Stone or something like that? There was an old 80s film.
Speaker 5:Could be in Colombia. There's a couple I did want to book a flight here. Am I not only in the wrong city here thinking, why is it 18?
Speaker 4:hours? Am I not only in the wrong city, country, but also continent?
Speaker 5:You're on the wrong continent but you're on the right decade for the film. So there we go, let's be positive about that I do.
Speaker 4:How is Spain Weather good Weather?
Speaker 5:looking after you. Weather's nice and I'm really enjoying it because I'm starting to find out what the what can the local people do? And they do actually do things like go for paella together and have siestas.
Speaker 4:It's quite incredible I love how your pronunciation is so on the nose spanish now there's a lot of pressure.
Speaker 5:I fly to murcia airport as well.
Speaker 4:I'm a lot of pressure not to mangle it, but it's actually probably yeah, I think we said on a previous podcast wouldn't beth now be one of your greatest critics when it comes to your pronunciation?
Speaker 5:oh, she just laughs at me. Honestly, I'm like I make. I make up words as well. I just make up. I'm trying to get a straw for her. Yesterday from the cafe, I just made a word up, but I mined it and then it worked out what I meant. So there, there we go. I think the word for straw is pojita and I think I said palito or something. She just said no, whatever it is, we haven't got one of them.
Speaker 4:Lovely to see you again. When are you back in the UK? When do I get to see you in person?
Speaker 5:I'm back on Thursday.
Speaker 4:So I'm here for council next week. Ah, ok, council next week. Ah okay, council, let's see. Okay, I might catch up then. Probably then should we get our guests on and do a proper podcast. Yes, so today we're looking at all things edi, which I'll say equality, diversity and inclusion or inclusivity. But I also know that equality and equity tend to be sort of used interchangeably in the in the e bit. Which is always my big worry with EDI is I use the wrong words at the wrong time and get it all um and get it all horribly wrong. But I'm hoping that I guess today Greg and Alex are going to say to me now that's fine, as long as you've got an open commitment to EDI, it doesn't matter if occasionally you muck it up. Greg, alex, welcome to the podcast. Who, oh Alex, you go first, alex, introduce yourself to the listeners, because Greg's been on before so they know him.
Speaker 1:He's old news. Hello, thank you so much for having me. I was quite disappointed when I got the Zoom link.
Speaker 4:I thought I was going to be in the pub. This is what I've listened to. This podcast it's. I swear you've always been in the pub. We've been threatened by andrea to get her onto a pub podcast. So maybe we'll do edi too at some point this year and get andrea and you guys on it. Well, that would be nice, I'm just down.
Speaker 1:I'm just down the road from sepa, so it'd be perfect, sorry. So my name is alex wood. I am the deputy chair of cpa's edi committee, a european patent attorney at hgf. I've been in the profession for uh coming up to seven years now. I think. I've been part of the cpa edi since, since it was created right at the beginning with greg, and yeah, I specialize in life sciences, but that's not very exciting for this podcast, but I just thought I'd throw it in there just in case oh, I don't know it's.
Speaker 4:It's quite, quite nice occasionally to get into sort of some of the techie legal stuff, so we might go there and before Greg comes in. So the interesting thing about the SEPA EDI committee is it was we did actually create it in response to a challenge from Andrea Brewster, leader of IP Inclusive, because I think we were becoming too complacent and too reliant on IP Inclusive to sort stuff out for us. And Andrea attended a council meeting and the challenge was come on, you're growing up now, yeah, you, you've got a handle on what this EDI thing is. You need to break out a wee bit and do some of the stuff through your own thinking and your own creativity and your own engineering. And Greg very kindly said he would chair the committee. So Greg hello, who are you?
Speaker 2:Hello? Yes, so I'm old news, but yeah, I'm Greg Eyston. I'm chair of the EDI committee, working out here in Germany, and have been in the profession for 17 years and have been on council since 2016. So, council member all the way out here in the deutschland. Yeah, so I I think that you know we started the edi committee, as you say, lee um, off the back of andrea, challenging us to make sure that we have something up and running, um, and make sure that we are representing our members, all of our members, and that there is a channel for us to discuss EDI-related issues with council directly through the EDI committee. And essentially, that's what we have done.
Speaker 4:We've set up the committee in 2021, and we are all working together to discuss hot topics that are important for our members and also to ensure that SEPA, internally and externally, is well aware of these topics and and you know, we connect on them and do you feel, can I just sort of touch on the council bit for a moment, because I know when we first started to have these conversations at council before the EDI committee, when Andrea was very much sort of pushing at doors in terms of the work of IP inclusive, sometimes the conversations can be a little bit strained and a little bit difficult, I think probably for the reasons that I said earlier about people being concerned that they get the language right. Have you found that improve on council? Have you seen council change in the way that it talks about EDI?
Speaker 2:Well, I think that council has changed a lot since I started anyway. I mean, I think that the representation of people on council has changed a lot. I do feel that, you know, it's a broad spectrum of people on council now in-house private practice. I think that the conversations that we're having now are certainly bettered by having an EDI committee, because then it's us bringing things to the table. You know, having that slot in the council meetings to discuss EDI issues, things that have come up in the committee meetings, and things like that. I do think it gives us a platform now to say, yeah, this is what's been happening, this is what we're going to do. Do we have council approval, all of those things, whereas before it was a standing agenda, right, and we'd probably just gloss over it because there was, you know, unless there was something of absolute significance.
Speaker 4:We didn't really talk about all of the little things that perhaps we have been working on over the past few years so I think for me and I will let william come in in a moment, but but he in part was responsible for this conversation I think council showed its maturity around EDI at our meeting in February.
Speaker 4:Now I'm not going to go sort of to the dark side in terms of talking about the politics of this, but we did have a conversation at council about the current spotlight that there is on EDI in terms of the noise to counter it from particular angles and perspectives, and I think what was refreshing for me was we had people sat around the council table that were prepared to have that difficult conversation, who previously wouldn't have contributed. So they felt sort of engaged and able to do so and able to do so. And also there was consensus across council that now, particularly as IP Inclusive approaches its 10th anniversary, is a really good time to restate our commitment, not just for SEPA as an organisation but also for us, the leadership council, to do so individually. So I certainly have the intention to restate my leader's pledge around my personal commitment to EDI and I just I thought that showed a real maturity of thinking from council for it to be able to have that conversation and to want to be quite open in its, in its declaration of its commitment to EDI.
Speaker 1:Just for I'm not part of council, so I think it's quite interesting to see perspective from someone who only kind of hears what happens at council meetings and feeds back. And I think I've definitely seen a change from like council's reactions to when we put forward as part of the CPDI committee, put forward ideas. I find it's a lot more like stronger in their response as well. So it's not sometimes it was always, I felt at least pushed back sometimes and I feel like now as a committee sorry we've got a lot more confidence in what we're doing and who we are now. I think at the beginning, the first couple of years I think, greg, you'd probably agree with this we were just trying to find our feet, trying. You know what was CPEDI, how did we fit in with council? What was our role within this, within CEPA? And I think now we've got a bit more confidence. Our ideas are being put forward with a bit more strength as well to council and on top of that, you know we've had CPEDI members now join council.
Speaker 1:I know Claire is now a member of council. She was part of CPEDI committee again, I think from the beginning, greg. So it's great to see, you know, members of our committee go forward. I think that's a lot to do with Greg. I mean, he'll probably hate me for saying this, but I think he's a real inspiration. He came to it. He's been a plug for SEPA Council, telling us how great it is and to join. And having someone like him represent SEPA EDI means, I think, people from our committee have been more open to the idea of joining as well.
Speaker 2:Thanks, alex, that's really kind. I'm not sure that's true, but there we go. I knew you would say that no, but I mean I think that certainly you know the EDR committee. When we set it up, like Alex said, we were finding our feet and and yeah, I completely agree with you I think that now we have this sort of feeling that you know, we have the support of council, we have the support of um you, lee and and Gwilym at SEPA to be able to bring these things forward. It always feels, feels comfortable, it feels safe, it feels like a good environment for our members to be in, certainly on the EDI committee. So I mean, you know it's little steps, but we're getting there.
Speaker 2:One of the questions that I get frequently is you know what's the difference between IP inclusive and the SEPA's EDI committee and what you know? There must be an incredible amount of overlap there, which we are fully aware that there is an amount of overlap. We have some people that are on the EDI committee at SEPA who are also members of IP inclusive and active in IP inclusive. We don't want to double down our efforts. We want to make sure that we are working together and I think that after we've now found our feet.
Speaker 2:I think that one of the things that I would like to do with the edi committee and I'm sure alex greegs is trying to strengthen our ties with ip inclusive, you know, maybe get those conversations started now.
Speaker 2:I think it's an appropriate time that we start not merging together, but, you know, like strengthening our ties so that we're in communication with each other, we're not treading on each other's toes, we're making sure that our events don't coincide with their events, things like this and it's and I suppose, the other, the thing about the edi committee within sepa is that you know, we're trying to look at our internal governance as well, not just, you know, outward looking, which we're trying to see how we can change things edi related within seeker itself, so that, you know, is a big difference.
Speaker 2:But again, that's something that we want to work with ip inclusive with in the future. And the other thing that I think that we would really like to do is strengthen as, as you said, lee, you know, like world stage of edi um is under the microscope. There's certain countries who are doing really well and you know, I think that there are certain countries that could learn from others, and I do think that perhaps this might be the year that we need to strengthen our ties internationally and try and get those conversations going with people on an international level.
Speaker 4:Yeah, and I think that's a really good point. Can I do something that's a bit unusual? Gwendo, know you want to speak and I will let you speak in a moment, but I don't often read from a script. But if it's okay with you and with greg and with alex, I'd quite like to just restate the, the current seeper commitment, to see if we're still comfortable with it and and how, how we feel about it. So this is what we say currently about our commitment.
Speaker 4:So everybody belongs here. We exist in a global, multicultural world and we want SEPA to reflect that. We want all our people our members, our volunteers and our staff to go and thrive through their relationship with SEPA. Our focus on diversity and inclusion will attract talented people and will keep our people engaged and supportive of our work. As a professional membership association. We will treat people fairly and equitably. We will ensure equality of opportunity for all our people. Above all, we will create an environment where our people, regardless of background or personal circumstance, feel valued. That still feels about right to me, I think. Other than restating that I don't think we're far off, the mark are we?
Speaker 2:No, I think that that's well certainly what I stand for, and I think that it's what everybody else on certainly on our committee, have stood for, because we put it in our terms of reference yeah, it's, it's an important commitment to have and, and I think that we've nailed it there- and I think it's continuous commitment as well.
Speaker 1:It's not something that we've achieved it and then it it ends.
Speaker 5:It has to be a continuous effort reflecting on what we did discuss at council and I think is, politics aside, there's there was pragmatics to it, but having that kind of original position really, really helps, and I think it shows the transition that we've seen, because the pragmatics of it is that dei policies are not necessarily legal in some territories now potentially not, not legal in those aspects of them at least, and in particular, previously, when it's been a matter of saying to businesses get more involved in dei. You know there's loads of reasons to it. We give lots of different reasons for it. We said it's the right thing to do six, one box. We've said, um, that it's uh, diversity is actually improves the business. Of course, we said that it's very attractive to the next generation of graduates. Thank you, next generation, for bringing your conscience with you, which is really good. But we've also said, and, realistically, when you come to pitch some businesses, it's a very important part of the pitch what are your policies there? And that last one's changed a little bit, because of the legal situation, shall we say, and so there's a risk that, pragmatically, business will say clients don't ask for it anymore. So therefore we don't need to do it.
Speaker 5:And the lovely thing is that, because we've got all these other reasons and because everything's become so embedded through, like the reference pledges and through these commitments, definitely the position in council is OK. It's still the right thing to do. We need to be careful, we need to actually not do risky things, but we can continue to do it, and so I think what's happened over the last few years is originally, I think, through Andrea's amazing efforts you've always been a huge champion of this for projecting everybody out. The following wind is there, so people kind of think it's okay, we can do things. We can keep within the constraints and still do, absolutely do the right thing.
Speaker 5:And it's been really good to see and I think council, as you say, maybe a few years ago might have been slightly more focused on the straight pragmatics can't do anymore. Let's move on as opposed to what can we do, what can we do, do right. So I thought that was a really positive meeting and a really positive message and, alex, I'm glad you're saying that that's percolating through. People are getting that and on that point I mean. So one of the things I do with Andrew a lot is the senior leaders stuff. It's, you know, kind of people who are in a position to be able to make decisions within their business, making sure that they're bought in. How are you finding your interactions with the senior leaders in the profession.
Speaker 1:How are they doing? I think some of them are scared Maybe I'm saying this and they're not scared at all but my general impression I think some senior leaders are quite worried I think Lee actually touched on it at the beginning about being scared about not doing the right thing. What to say? Make sure you're saying the right thing. And I think some companies and some senior scared to have the conversation because they might think, oh gosh, we're not currently meeting EDI requirements or it doesn't look great. I always urge them. You know you need to start. We're not here to say, oh, you're not very diverse. We're here to help and if we can help you in in any way, then let us know.
Speaker 1:And I find senior leaderships kind of nod and say, yes, but it does require action. It does require you to act on your words. It's easy to say we pledge a commitment to being diverse. You have to show that. You have to stand by. You have to think outside of your own situation and how other people within your business and within the whole their own current environment, rather than thinking about other people and how they might feel, how they might be impacted by their decisions. And so I think there's like a two-fold thing. It's one is having the being brave enough to have the conversation in the first place and open up that discussion and that being welcomed and not being a worry for them. And then the second thing would be, once you do have that conversation, try and actually act upon that rather than just having a lot of words with no like kind of follow through afterwards.
Speaker 5:Because I think this has come up a few times on the podcast. We've done plenty of podcasts on this topic and one of my perennial questions in terms of getting it right is also not so much putting the words into action, just not saying the wrong thing, and that's definitely a generational issue. Think for me certainly is I want to help, but if I say the wrong thing, I might I might insult or embarrass the person I'm trying to be helpful with, and the lovely advice that's always always come back is just be kind and you'll probably be okay, which is a really helpful piece of advice actually well, I think that we can, as human beings, right, we can all make mistakes.
Speaker 2:When we're saying things, we don't intentionally mean them, it doesn't matter where we're doing it or what we're. What we're doing, we're just, we're human at the end of the day and I think that as long as you have empathy and care for the people, then you will get there and you might say the wrong thing, but you know, it's perfectly okay to be educated and told no, that's, that's not actually quite the right thing to say there and learn from it and move on. You know, I don't think that there's problems with people making mistakes. I do think that what was, what was funny, is reading that article from Matt Dixon about is him having to change his accent when he started the profession? Obviously Matt Dixon, immediate past president. I think that when I started in the profession, obviously Matt Dixon, immediate past president. I think that when I started in the profession in 2007, I didn't even think about my accent.
Speaker 4:It just went into this profession unapologetically, me from the northeast of England, just like hiya all right, it is an interesting point, greg, and it's not something that's the preserve of the patent attorney profession. I don't speak now with the accent that I grew up with and and I don't speak with that because I went into further education leadership and I came into jobs, lead and professional membership bodies and people didn't speak like how I spoke and I mean, most people can still get the accent they still. You know, sometimes I'll slip into colloquialisms and stuff like that, but but the reality is, if I was speaking to my mum and dad, they wouldn't understand me this is actually a personal kind of passion of mine as well within the CPEDI, is I?
Speaker 1:so I went to university in Durham and I remember I was absolutely astounded that there was nobody from the northeast actually at Durham University. I don't think I met anyone who actually lived in Newcastle or Durham when I was there. And I remember I turned up and I had the strongest Yorkshire accent. I'm from Wakefield and I'd never left at that point and I had a very strong Yorkshire accent. And I turned up at Durham and nobody sounded like me. And likewise, when I came down to London when I first joined, my accent had faded slightly but still had a pretty, pretty strong Yorkshire accent. Um, and again, there wasn't really anybody with a Yorkshire accent at my firm and you know it was kind of like a funny joke that we had that I needed like subtitles but it thankfully I was. I was like very warmly welcomed at my firm. So it was. It was always in my jest, but I remember thinking actually this is quite a mate, like quite astounding that I haven't actually met anyone really yet in London that is from. That is a patent attorney that is from Yorkshire.
Speaker 1:And then the recent SEPA EDI results that came out. You know we did. We did the survey. I was amazed at how many patent attorneys are in the southeast of England. I think it was something like 45 percent from the southeast of England or something. I'd always had that perception that more panattonis were from the southeast of England, but I wasn't. I never really had like. Maybe I thought it was my personal, you know situation that made me feel like that. But actually the results show that that is true and I'm really eager now to you know, make sure the whole of the UK we get from all over. I work for HGF, which is a predominantly northern based firm, and it's interesting now to see the you know how it changes across. So now that I've moved firms where the kind of head office is leads, how that has made I'm now more open to like and we have probably have more northerners than we do southerners here.
Speaker 2:So it's just interesting, like how, working at HGF now it's not uncommon for me to hear a Yorkshire accent yeah, and to be honest, you know, because I'm from Teesside originally, I think that you know, had I not gone to, you know, I went to university in Stoke-on-Trent also has an accent and you know when I went down there and I was a smoggy, you know, everyone's like, oh, who's this, who's this guy? You know I'm like why is he, why is he talking like this? And I honestly I don't think, had I not removed myself from Teesside, I would be a patent attorney today. Had I stayed in Teesside or even in the northeast of England, you know, newcastle, where, like gone to do physics and astrophysics somewhere else other than Keele, I genuinely don't think that I would have become a patent attorney because I don't know that the opportunities back then, in 2007, were available up in the north of England as predominantly as they are now and I think that that's something you know.
Speaker 2:As an EDI committee I've always said this from the start, haven't I, alex? Like there's a lot. The spectrum of EDI is so broad and the breadth is we, you know, we also want to look after socio-economic divides and and north-south divide, even in the, even within the profession, you know, and it's it's the, the whole breadth of spectrum of things under the umbrella of edi is there and it's something that we really want to try and and we're not going to be able to fix it all. But, moving from one topic to the next, you know we can try and get some more awareness up in the north of england that this is an opportunity for people with stem subjects.
Speaker 4:You, you, know it's really interesting. So what I'm hearing and reflecting on there, Alex and Greg, is so ADI is multi-strand, multi-faceted, isn't it? Yeah, but sometimes if you focus on one part of it, you can address all of those. And what I'm hearing is that social mobility is probably the big factor here and actually if you get social mobility right, probably by extension start to get the rest of it right. Is that fair?
Speaker 2:yeah, I said so. I think that that's fair. It certainly opens up the opportunities to a lot more people. Yeah, I think that that is fair. Maybe that's something that we need to prioritize flipping it around it might.
Speaker 5:I suppose what you might say is stepping back, having talked about this in lots of different countries. Now, actually, funnily enough, with different people and about their different things. Different countries have completely different angles on what needs fixing. You know, the States definitely very different from over here, europe again very different. I think we, if we were to point to the weird one, for us it is class if you want to jump to the real, the real battle.
Speaker 5:Uh, and I've had a talk with some scandinavian clients about this and I said what about kind of like my social mobility and old-class thing? And I said, what are you talking about? And I said, well, the power of the accent and the power of the southeast, whatever it might be, oh, you know, all the education system, all that, and it was really wasn't an issue for them. They're really interested to hear it and they're fascinated by my conversation and about different accents and how that does have an impact in the UK, obviously for worse. But I suppose the bottom line is that there's different problems in different places but they're equality problems in their own different ways. And so if social mobility is the problem here, but it still reflects into all the other different diversity areas as well, because there's a problem underlying the social mobility thing that can be different in different countries.
Speaker 5:The acting thing's particularly interesting, I think, because I've got a weird personally got a weird accent. I actually had a wolverhampton accent until I was nine, full-on, proper, proper brummie accent, um, but then I obviously moved out to hong kong and ended up this slightly weird, weird accent here and, leo, I remember you telling me that your kids said you sound really different on the podcast. So we make these corrections.
Speaker 5:It's fascinating, isn't it?
Speaker 1:You mentioned that as well. The CPEDI committee and Greg and myself are not able to solve all of these problems within the CPEDI committee. I wish we could probably cure world hunger whilst we're there. No, um, yeah, I don't. I don't think it's. You know, we're not gonna solve this like a classic. Well, you know, whatever it might be, we're not going to address all of it within our committee.
Speaker 1:But I think it's just I'm always felt like I wanted to be an advocate in that respect that everybody is welcome. You don't have to have an accent, you don't have to look a certain way, you don't have to be anything. As long as you want to join the profession, we'll always welcome you and that's the general concept. I try that personally to put out. I try and pull that through the EDI committee, that everyone is welcome. I try to be more representative for everyone so everyone can maybe see themselves within SIPA.
Speaker 1:There's someone that they might see themselves in if that makes sense. So if, let's say, someone from Wakefield decides I fancy being a patent attorney or someone from Yorkshire and they might hear this podcast, they might think, oh well, look, here's someone from Yorkshire or, in Greg's case, newcastle. You know, look, now I'm more. Hopefully they're more likely to join, or hopefully they feel more welcome here, um as as as a result of that. So yeah that's. I'm not naive enough, I suppose, to think we're going to solve the, you know, all of the class issues and everyone suddenly is going to go to university and do a stem subject and become patent attorneys. God, I hope not, because I'd be quite a boring.
Speaker 5:That's the dream. No, that's the dream. That's the dream.
Speaker 1:Everyone just said run away I'm not sure how much of a fun world that would be if we all became patent attorneys so I'm, I'm, I'm conscious of time, and at the moment we've been doing sort of helicopter view stuff, haven't we?
Speaker 4:we've been sort of up there in the clouds looking at the big picture On a day-to-day basis. What's currently taxing the committee, greg? What are your two or three biggies that you're currently looking at?
Speaker 2:At the moment we're still working on the reasonable adjustments from the PEB that have been altered. We just want to make sure that they're up to scratch and that we are leading as gold standard on the reasonable adjustments there. So there's still a bit of work to be done on behind the scenes, but Alex and I are on top of that.
Speaker 1:In collaboration with the new EQEs as well. We're hoping to open up that door as well, yeah.
Speaker 4:Reasonable adjustments conversation for the new EQE examse exams as well and yeah, sorry to cut across it there, but in my experience there's always been a disconnect between how reasonable adjustments are treated in the uk, which historically seem to be really, really good, and perhaps in it with the eqes, where maybe the perspective on what a reasonable adjustment is has always been a little bit different, because obviously the view across europe is as I think Graham said earlier people look at EDI differently in in different countries.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I think it's hard for the, the EQE secretariat and the exam system for the EQEs because they don't have a set country that they're following. That defines disability, that has that they can follow. It's an international organization and as a result of that it's up to them really to decide what they do and they have to try and fit into all of the different countries and make sure they're not treading on anyone's toes. And I think up to now there hasn't really been a set policy, or at least a published policy, so it's just trying to work with them, like, like we say, we hope the UK will lead by example.
Speaker 4:Sorry, Greg, I'll cut you off there. So reasonable adjustments, number one. What else is on the radar?
Speaker 2:I guess what else we're trying to do is we're trying to get some events, regular events. Well, not too regular, but every quarter or every half a year we're trying to set up some events that are EDI related and perhaps won't be a happy hour in a pub, but might be somewhere of cultural importance and make it a rather interesting evening, rather than just going to the pub, which we're hoping to do this year. Alex, you're going to be speaking at the Empowerment.
Speaker 1:Empower Her event.
Speaker 2:Empower Her event.
Speaker 1:yeah, with the events angle just speaking at the empowerment empower her event, with the events angle just having. Now we're more comfortable with what the committee is and what we're doing, just becoming making people more aware that we exist really and just showing people that we're here. And we're here if you want to reach out, if you've got any ideas that might help. Sepa I spoke at SEPA congress. We hosted the pre-conference event at SEPA Congress and I spoke there on behalf of SEPA EDI.
Speaker 1:Likewise, I'm hosting the chairing sorry the SEPA ZDI event for SEPA women in ip, empower her event as well. There's some amazing people speaking. I'm very honored to be the chair for that.
Speaker 2:So yeah, that's on the 6th of march and so yeah, just just making people more, more aware that the cpedi committee exists, as well as hosting our own events yes, no, the other thing that we're looking at into what we're looking into is the making sure that we have a good representation of speakers at events and things and webinars and seminars and things like that. Now, we can't do that alone as an EDI committee, so we I suppose this is an appeal from the EDI committee here to anyone who's listening, who would like to volunteer, be a speaker at webinars or seminars or regional events to please get in touch with SEPA and then we can. We can have a look and, and you know, sort of have a good representation of members at these events, but it does require volunteers and people that are willing to give up some time to do these things and and I think that if we all work together, we can give a good breadth of of membership, uh, at these events oh, and we're currently organizing the cpi journal oh yes, we are yeah, yeah
Speaker 2:that's a big one. Yeah, yeah, it's going well, actually. Yeah, uh, we've got some. We've got quite a few people lined up giving articles. We are very excited to announce that, hopefully, on the edition that we are sending out in april, there will be a text to text, to speech function on the website, which would then enable everyone to be able to listen to the articles. So, yeah, so it's going really well. We will have a new section, which will be meet the council member, and I'll start that one off and see if we can carry that through Journal editions. But you know, after about 20 of those it might get a bit boring, but we'll see how it goes. But, yeah, we'll do the meet the council member and then, of course, in the journal will be the usual bits of patent law and you know the legal stuff. So, but it should be good oh, thanks both for coming on.
Speaker 4:It feels to me like we're, um, coming to a conclusion and paying on time. If I may say, it's almost like we're getting good at this, guillem. It's almost like we're getting good at this. Just before we close, though, uh, we always give our guests the opportunity to do this. Are you sat there thinking, oh, we didn't get the chance to say this, or they didn't ask that question? Is there anything else you want to squeeze in? Is that a no?
Speaker 1:I've got one thing I could squeeze in.
Speaker 1:Oh go for it, which for me, it's just well. The first is a plug for the CPDI committee in terms of people wanting to join. We haven't really welcomed any new members for some time now. Greg, I think you'll agree and I'm very eager to make sure we're representative across the whole of SIPA. So please if you're listening to this, I suppose and you don't have to be a patent attorney in private practice to be part of SIPA. You don't even have to be a patent attorney.
Speaker 1:You know we welcome everyone, from trainees, paralegals, all of you. Please feel free to join the committee in-house private practice. Whatever your role is within SEPA, it would be great to have more people join the committee who are eager to make a change and help the committee. And my second thing is just to say that if anyone I appreciate the current landscape we're in edi is perhaps taking a, let's say, a bit of a hit, just know that the cp edi committee remain dedicated and we're still here. We'll still continue to champion diversity within cpa. We still stand by everything that we are as a committee and if anyone feels like they need to talk to someone, you know the cp edi committee are here and we're here to listen as well, if they need, if they want to speak to anyone and that's my yeah, and that's a really lovely plug.
Speaker 4:To end on, alex, I think it's um, it's important to say, isn't it? The committee is there as much to listen and to support as it as it is to be a be a sort of like an activist engine for um, for cpa. In that sense, I'll thank you both for coming on. Uh, but greg knows that we've always got something up our sleeve at the end because we don't we, we don't just end this podcast like that.
Speaker 4:Oh no, we normally have some sort of tangential question at the end, don't worry. So. So gilliam and I've just been having a chat in the chat and when we have like a serious part, I know we've approached this with a degree of sort of light-heartedness and humor, but it's quite a serious subject and I think it deserves a closing question that doesn't take us too far off beat. So early earlier on you were all talking about how your early experiences of university went, and you know whether that did or didn't involve a change of accent, or did or didn't mean that you could visually see people who were like you, and it got me to thinking. So I'm gonna ask gullum first, because I know he's a physicist and we've talked a lot about his physicistism in the past if that's a, if that's a word but I don't know why he's a physicist.
Speaker 4:I don't know why that was your sort of subject of choice. So get ready, alex and Greg, because it's coming your way. Why physics? Why was that your go-to?
Speaker 5:I was quite a geek believe it or not, at school, but academically I was always kind of. I was not on any sports teams, but I was probably quite good academically and I was actually quite good on the English side as well. I may have mentioned I won a couple of poetry prizes at school, but when I was in junior school and I was kind of, there was always me and this lady called lady, who's a girl. Then she's now. She's now flautist with the munich, munich, uh, philharmonic, I think, or something called jenny nancarrow. Hi, jenny, not spoken since I was 11. Remember your name? Um, we always I got up against each other, kind of first and second in the class, and at the end of junior school jenny nankaro got top in english and I got second and I got top in in science and she got second and I packed that away, uh, forgot about it.
Speaker 5:But the outcome was I always thought I was a scientist, first because of that, literally because of that. So when I got to my choices at GCSE and for A-level, I mostly went down the science route because I was a scientist in my head and then when I actually did like the VIX, it was great. I got to university in about a year and a half and I asked myself the same question why am I doing this?
Speaker 4:And I thought, oh my God, it's because of jenny nancaro there was an answer I wasn't expecting, so I'll try and pin that into my memory now. So you are a physicist because of jenny nancaro I hope she listens to this so do I, I'm actually
Speaker 1:freaked out that quilliam knows everything about it I know he's dedicated his whole life and career based on when she was 11.
Speaker 4:greg's gonna try and find her in Munich now. And Alex, what did you do at uni and why? Why did you do it?
Speaker 1:So I did biology at Durham University and mine is a bit more close to home. So my mum is a mathematician and she's very inspiring as well. My mum, she's one of the first people to do maths and maths in maths at university that she went to and I always thought I was going to be a mathematician and I tried to follow in her footsteps and did maths and further maths at A level and then quickly realised I'm not actually that good at maths. So I was like, oh, I'm gonna have to pivot away from this. I'm not sure I can. I would. I tried to. I tried to keep up with her, um, but I soon realised she's naturally gifted at maths and I'm not so.
Speaker 1:Thankfully I had science as a backup and at that point I was. You know, physics wasn't really for me and it was always a toss-up between biology and chemistry and I was tempted to do biochemistry. Durham doesn't really allow in your first year, you know, combined sciences. They're quite strict in that you have to pick one. So I ended up picking biology and since then I just became fascinated with the human body, what it's capable of achieving, and then it just carried on from there, really found out about the patent attorney profession through this bio enterprise module that they do at Durham, which is really. It's such a good module to take if you're at Durham, if you're any university. It's a business and science module essentially and it's really good. You kind of have like a startup company. I think I learned more about you know the world and how it works from that module than I did my whole university degree and it was really good and that's how I ended up really in the patent attorney profession. Couldn't be a scientist, so did biology instead, basically.
Speaker 4:Also, fab, that you discovered the patent attorney profession whilst you were at university rather than after Greg. You and I have probably had this conversation before.
Speaker 2:Yeah, we have. I know we have. I can't believe you're doing this to me.
Speaker 4:But I've not done this deliberately. Come on now. You see me, you see me, yes.
Speaker 2:So when I was finishing at school I thought I'd like to go to university. I really want to be an airline pilot. That was the first thing that I really, really wanted to do. And when I finished school I was like I really want to be an airline pilot and I knew that I needed to have science degree to sort of bolster my chances of becoming an airline pilot. And then, when I was looking through prospectuses for universities, I came across Keele University, because they're one of the only universities in the country that allow you to do two completely different subjects joined together, and it's a dual degree.
Speaker 2:At that point I decided that I would like to try to be the prime minister on the mean.
Speaker 2:So I started doing astrophysics and politics whilst I was at university.
Speaker 2:It just turns out that I was really, really bad at politics like really bad at it, and in the end I had to go and beg the dean of the physics department to allow me to do astrophysics and politics no, sorry, astrophysics and physics, because apparently I was really good at physics but really, really bad at politics. So I dropped politics and carried on with physics and astrophysics and in my final year that was where I went down to the British Airways cadet scheme in Bournemouth to do their interview tests and things like that, of which I passed all of them and everything was all good to go, but then, unfortunately, due to medical circumstances, they couldn't allow me to continue in the process. They did invite me to pay for myself, which would have been 150,000 pounds, of which of which I didn't have. That money, who does? And then, as I came back from Bournemouth to heel, I saw a notice on the notice board saying have you thought about being a partner attorney? And I had not, and at that moment I did. And then the rest is history that's astonishing.
Speaker 5:So I think I think darth sidious started doing astrophysics and um politics when he kicked off as emperor of the dark side of the universe.
Speaker 4:So you know, you're putting in good footsteps there I'm I'm just fascinated that greg seems to think that you need to be good at politics to be in politics yeah, quickly realized that's not true and also wasn't very good at it anyway, so maybe I could still be prime minister, who knows so I know, I know about the question.
Speaker 4:I've actually forgotten what the question is, lee, but bouncing it back to you, I was asking you three why you chose your original kind of career trajectories, in terms of why you studied for the subjects you did at university. I didn't go, gwilym, so you can't ask me that question, lee why did you?
Speaker 5:I know the answer to everything because you told you've done enough podcasts. There's not a lot of backstory. Why? Why did you get a tortoise?
Speaker 4:why? What was that?
Speaker 2:I don't know, why did you get a tortoise?
Speaker 5:I know I became a slumber. I know why he went into education. I know I went to sleep because he did that in he went into education. I know why he went to sleep because he did that in the last blooming podcast. I don't know why he got a tortoise. I'm just trying to find to keep the flow.
Speaker 4:I have a sneaky, suspicious feeling that we did do this question really early doors in the podcast and you might remember it when I start to tell you the story. So I used to take number six, child number two, daughter evie, to her sort of like preschool thing junior, you know, before you go to infant school, and stuff like that and I always used to get talking to like the parents at the gate and I was speaking to a sort of the parent who was probably evie's best friend at that time at school, so either she'd do four or five, whatever it was was, and she just said, oh, I re-homed tortoises and I had always, I always wanted a tortoise. Haven't had one when I was a child, I've had several when I was a child and they all met their ends horribly through disastrous accidents at home, like a wardrobe falling on top of one oh my gosh, yeah, yeah, yeah. And another one turning itself upside down for far too long at the garden before we found it and it's sort of like suffocated itself.
Speaker 4:I always felt guilty about my previous ability to look after a tortoise when I was a child and this woman was talking about this tortoise that she had that had a bit of a wonky mouth, it had a bit of a deformed shell and all of these kinds of things, and I just felt, I just felt that I was destined to adopt this tortoise. So, yeah, went round to our home that evening and adopted him. Bizarrely, uh, because we've got his. We've got his birth certificate, his hatching certificate, whatever, as you call it discovered when I went to pick him up that he hatched on evie's the day he was born so yeah, so they share a birthday.
Speaker 4:they share an age, which means I can always remember how old he is. So he's 17 at the moment. He'll be 18 this year. We need to do something to celebrate his birthday and, for those who don't know, his name is Albert Treacle.
Speaker 1:Is Evie happy that she essentially is, being that she shares a birthday with a tortoise? How?
Speaker 4:does she feel? Oh no, yeah, she loves a tortoise.
Speaker 1:Oh good, the tortoise. Yeah, oh god, I was just checking like they bond over.
Speaker 4:We, we kind of we don't do this obviously, but it just seems funny thing to say. We stick a candle to the top of his shell out the garden so she can go and blow it.
Speaker 4:Um, blow the candle out complete roller coaster will answer me thank you very much, although I think it was funny, it was poignant, it was everything I have now thought of a way of not losing him out the garden. If I do stick a big candle to his back, then one, he can't roll over, he can't turn himself over, and two, wherever he is in the undergrowth we can see him, because he'll have a big candle going around.
Speaker 5:Get one of those. Remember, in Starsky and Hutch you used to stick the light, the flashing light, on the car.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it might be safer than a burning flame.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that might be how your next tortoise meets its end, if it's not a wardrobe, or it falling on its back. It'll be like you've burned it alive.
Speaker 4:Oh god, yeah, okay, I'll forget that one then.
Speaker 2:Okay, there was just one thing that I maybe want to say. It's a little quote from this week's SAG Awards, from Jane Fonda, but I don't know if you've seen it.
Speaker 1:I've seen it, I love it.
Speaker 2:You say it, greg, so she said from from what awards, greg? Sorry from the SAG Awards.
Speaker 4:Then I don't know what they are a Screen Actors.
Speaker 2:Guild. Awards okay, yeah. So Jane Fonda was picking up a Lifetime Achievement Award and she said in her acceptance speech empathy is not weak or woke and, by the way, woke just means you give a damn about other people and I'll tell you what greg, you've possibly given us the little caption for the um, for the podcast, when we um, when we publish it there we go.
Speaker 4:I can know that. Oh, thank you both so much for coming on it's been?
Speaker 2:no, not at all. Thanks for having us.
Speaker 4:Yeah, the time's flown by, which always does, when you're having just an engaging, friendly conversation with people, and Gwilym so I just need to do my little close at the end, which is, if you, if you listen to the podcast and you've sort of found it as fun and interesting as we have, then by all means leave us a little review on wherever you pick your podcast up from, and that means that more people will find us. Um, thanks all. Cheers, alex, cheers greg thank you so much thanks, bye thanks. Outro Music. He's in a hard to rock music.