Two IPs In A Pod
Brilliant inventions, fresh product designs, iconic brand names and artistic creativity are not only the building blocks of successful business - they deliver a better world for us all. But these valuable forms of intellectual property must be protected in order to flourish. We are the Chartered Institute of Patent Attorneys - the UK's largest intellectual property organisation. Our hosts Lee Davies and Gwilym Roberts chat with entrepreneurs, creatives, patent attorneys and the occasional judge about how patents, trade marks, designs and copyright can improve our lives and solve problems for humanity.
Two IPs In A Pod
Trade Mark Genericide with Natasha Bamu
In this episode of Two IPs in a Pod, Lee and Gwilym are joined by Natasha Bamu from Barron Warren Redfern to explore the world of Trade Mark Genericide—what it is, how it happens, and the steps brands can take to prevent it. Plus, Gwilym puts a few word games to the test, with some unexpected results!
Lee Davis and Gwilym Roberts are the two IPs in a pod and you are listening to a podcast on intellectual property brought to you by the Chartered Institute of Patent Attorneys.
Speaker 3:Hey, gwilym, how are you, mate? Not seen you for a little while. I know how are you, mate, not seeing you for a little while, I know, uh, how are you? Yeah, no, I'm really good. I say I'm really good. I um, I injured myself playing squash last week quite badly, um, and I've been limping, I've, I've torn the I can't ever say this right the plantar fascia, tendon or ligament or whatever it is on the base of the foot and uh, it's quite painful that would look like the thing which football springy.
Speaker 3:Yes, that's the one yeah, it actually felt so. When it happened, I was playing a backhand and I lunged forward with my left foot and it felt like my arch had collapsed. It felt like my foot suddenly went flat to the floor and, uh, that's agony. I'm not, not advised, don't do it. Do you make a distinctive?
Speaker 2:sound when you walk now. Oh, lee's coming. It's all, flat foot, lee I found the um.
Speaker 3:I found the side effect of it. It's quite interesting. That's because I'm trying to keep my heel off the floor when I'm walking. I'm now getting a lot of calf pain as well, so it's like, oh no not good it's not good flip flap, it's flip tippy toe.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, something like that god, I want to see this anyway.
Speaker 3:Can, aside from my um ailments, can I just make a couple of observations about you? You've combed your hair no, I haven't.
Speaker 2:I got my hair cut. I forget it cuts short even a haircut. It just sticks out in the right direction, so I'm good never seen you look that tidy. You know, I trim my beard every now and then. Every six years I'll do something.
Speaker 3:And why have you got up-wide-down jellyfish floating above your right ear? Why haven't you? Oh yeah, indeed, yeah, I didn't realise it was part of the essential podcasting kit.
Speaker 2:Can you see me shaking?
Speaker 3:See you shaking.
Speaker 2:I've got the shake. Yes, are you nervous? No, I'm. I'm just coming down off a terrifying experience. I've just taken my first ever line bike ride in london.
Speaker 3:I've never done it before is that not a not a good experience?
Speaker 2:it's great line bikes, wonderful thing. That's my problem solved. But I cycle in london tons but I've never taken an e-bike before. It is nerve-wracking I am.
Speaker 3:So I have a thing, a thing about cyclists in london and I know, I know that all cyclists say. All cyclists say because I've spoken to enough of them that those that go through red lights and bother pedestrians that are in the minority, they're not. It's pretty much every single cyclist will go through red lights, regardless of where pedestrians are. I despise cyclists and I used to be one I've decided and I am one.
Speaker 2:No, it irritates me because I do stop and I'm the idiot who's not moving. But what I do love occasionally someone will actually say to you, thank you for stopping, and it is the most validating thing. It's really nice let's never stop this. It's getting worse, definitely but, it's quite difficult to stop an e-bike.
Speaker 3:It's terrifying, oh yeah, I've never cycled in London. Never want to cycle in London. It looks terrifying. Agreed, okay, should we crack on with the show? Yeah, so we're a little bit out of our comfort zone today, because normally I mean, I know we're a podcast that spans all of IP, but we do tend to gravitate towards patent and heavy tech stuff, and then occasionally we have an inspiration to get on someone to come and speak to us about areas of IP that are, dare I say it, possibly more interesting than patents, gwilym, and we've got one of those today. So should we welcome Natasha to the podcast? Hey, natasha, how are you?
Speaker 1:Hello, I'm good, thank you. Thank you for having me.
Speaker 3:No, it's great to have you on, and this is the outcome of you and I having a little bit of a conversation on LinkedIn. Isn't it great that the world works like that these days?
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, it is yeah. So first of all, introduce yourself. Who are you? What do you do? So my name is Natasha. I am a trademark attorney at Baron Warren Redfern. I work with Jerry Bridge Butler, who I think you've had on the show a couple of times actually.
Speaker 3:We have had Jerry on a couple of times, yeah.
Speaker 1:Yeah and yeah, so I work with him in the trademark team.
Speaker 3:And yeah, so I work with him in the trademark team. Cool Interesting thing about Jerry. I sometimes use AI to help me do minutes and Jerry's name was in a set of minutes I was trying to do I think it was yesterday and I can't remember if it was Copilot or whatever I was using managed to recognise him as Joey Bridge Builder.
Speaker 1:Oh, wow, okay.
Speaker 2:I might start calling him that. Actually, that's quite, that's got a complimentary name though bridge builder.
Speaker 3:Yeah, it is. Yeah, what a great way to go through life building bridges. Anyway, it's um, that's not. We're not on to talk about jerry, even though he seems to be on podcast more than me and willem. So, natasha, this came about because I think something that you wrote for sitmar appeared in was it in sitmar journal and online about brands that go through something called genericide. Is that I got that right?
Speaker 1:yes, yeah, that's correct.
Speaker 1:So I uh wrote a blog post for um the sitmar blog um, about genericide, uh, which is basically when a trademark or registered trademark, slowly, over time although for some it happens quite quickly becomes a generic term. As you know, a trademark is a sign that companies use to distinguish their products, their goods and services from those of others. So really, you know, it's all about being distinctive and it's all about standing out. But over time, sometimes, when your brand is so good and you become so popular, you run the risk of your trademark becoming generic.
Speaker 3:That's when, now, the public start using your trademark to refer to just those goods in general, um, and, and it's no longer really seen as a trademark that belongs to one company oh, and so I think they're sort of fairly obvious ones that most of us know, but you want to sort of give us some insight into the, perhaps the history and the background of this yes, well, I mean, there's not much of a history to it really it's.
Speaker 1:It starts really with just the definition of a trademark. Uh, one of the essential functions of a trademark, as I said before, is to to allow a business to distinguish itself from others, um, and kind of show the origin of their products, so. So if it can't do that, then essentially it can't perform that essential function of a trademark. So, you know, instead of now being that mark that companies, the public, use to kind of refer to your business, it's now just that generic word and that can happen to anyone at any time. And there's marks that have trademarks that have kind of become generic as far back as the 1920s. And then there's this, you know the same problem happening to trademarks today, this year, last year is it?
Speaker 3:is it a bad thing? Is it a good thing? Is it indifferent?
Speaker 1:I think from a trademark perspective it is a bad thing really. Um, you want to be successful, you want everybody to know your brand, you know. But really it's kind of a disadvantage of being too successful and too well known, because the line starts to blur a little bit you, when you're no longer a brand and people think actually your brand is just a product. So you've kind of lost that trademark.
Speaker 3:Really, I was quite fascinated by the trampoline one, because, I mean, I didn't know that it was known as the rebound tumbler back in the 30s and then, obviously, over time, trampoline became generic yes yeah, so otherwise, yeah, it doesn't make the same, does it asking the kids if they'd like to have a rebound tumbler in the garden?
Speaker 1:no, it doesn't. It doesn't sound as fun. Um, there's, there's a lot of marks that that that's to. And you know, when I was writing this blog post and I was having a look at some examples, I was really surprised at some of the ones that I came across that were actually registered trademarks before. Heroin was actually one of them, and yeah, and that really surprised me. Yes, yeah, of them. Um, and yeah, and that really surprised me. Yes, yeah, heroin used to be, um, a trademark owned by Bayer.
Speaker 1:Um, for a kid like why yeah, well, a morphine alternative is what the actual product was um, and that became generic as early as 1919, actually, wow. So, yeah, I mean, you know, nowadays you would never think that comes from one particular source or it's a product really like that, but it once was, and one that kind of came and went really quickly was Airfryer. So Airfryer is, yeah, it's a registered trademark, owned by yeah, owned by phillips, but um, in the in the us now it's considered generic um, because there's lots of different brands that make air fryers um, but I guess I guess that one makes a wee bit of sense, because that's quite descriptive, isn't it?
Speaker 3:that's you know, and it, and that's not just a trademark, that is actually what it does. It fries using air. So I can, I can understand how that happened, but things like hoover, um, so hoover doesn't in any way, shape or form in its original sense, suggest that here is a device that kind of sucks up dirt through the process of a vacuum or whatever it, whatever it might be, um, and yet it became generic and that that makes less sense to me. Why did that, you know? Why did we come to recognize anything that cleaned carpets as a hoover?
Speaker 1:yeah, that's it. I mean that's, that's the perfect example of actually becoming too well known, like so well known and so recognized just for you. You know, for for that product that people will always just say, oh, just you know, I'm just gonna hoover, I'm just gonna hoover the carpet, or I'm gonna grab the hoover, or I'm gonna hoover the carpet with my dyson. So, yeah, that that's a perfect example of that happening. And you know a lot of companies they try, they really try, to say this is a registered trademark, these are Hoover vacuum cleaners, and there's lots of different ways they can try to still kind of maintain the mark and try to say, well, no, this is the brand, it's not the product, and they'll keep trying to do that. But it's really hard to control things like that really. I mean, once it's with the public, they're going to refer to these things how they want to.
Speaker 3:Yeah, I guess the public aren't great respecters of brand and IP in that sense, are they?
Speaker 1:no, no, and it's. It's always, you know, to do with, I think, how language kind of um develops as well and and how people talk um it. That is a very difficult thing to try for businesses to try to control anyway. Um, just even with things like slang and how people want to refer to stuff, once it's out there, it's not so much in their control anymore and the public will call it whatever they want to.
Speaker 2:The brand creators must just be gleeful that they came up with a word that was so good that it became the word for the thing, like Hoover, which is used. You know, I'm going to Hoover it up. That's much more. You know, he just Hoovered his meal up. It's become a really clear meaning word and I'm sure the brand people you know, I'm guessing, are all frustrated poets anyway, I think, and I've literally added to the, I've literally added to the English, whatever language. What a fantastic surprise. The lawyers, on the other hand, obviously are thinking oh, what have you done? Your word's too good. Does that mean that brand creators should come up with a not quite so good brand? Would that be your advice to somebody? That's too good, that's going to go generic, that word's too good, come up with a worse word.
Speaker 1:I came up with the worst word. I mean, it's really difficult to tell what's going to be too good, uh, at the beginning. Uh, because you come up with something. It's so distinctive, it's brilliant, like hoover, it's very distinctive, um, google very distinctive, but, um, you know, there's no way to really tell oh, this is just so good that it's going to be bad for us.
Speaker 1:It's all to do with the success of the business and how that mark and how that brand kind of catches on, how much the public really like it and kind of the different ways that you can play with it as well. Really. So you know, it's hard to kind of tell what's going to be a bad trademark, as in what's got the potential to become generic, because, like with the air fryer situation, it can happen very quickly, but, like with some of the other brands, some of the older brands, it takes time. It takes time for the company to kind of grow and get bigger. The brand gets bigger and bigger and then it's just one of those things that happen just become too big for your own good.
Speaker 2:Really it also, I guess, be a function of exclusivity. Um, yeah, you're the only people maybe because your patent portfolio, the only people who can actually make this product and therefore there's only one. So again you think, oh, I've nailed this, I've got a really good name and I've got, I'm the only person who can make this product. But it might be that almost inevitably in those circumstances you end up with a generic trademark, because it's the only word for the thing, because no one else makes it yeah, exactly, exactly that.
Speaker 1:I mean that that's a very unfortunate situation to be in what initially kind of looks like a great situation. You've got this fantastic brand and great trademark and you've got a patent, so you're the only one that can kind of do it. But then you know what, when your brand becomes generic but then you're the only one that can do it and it's difficult because you you can try to kind of balance that, you can try to control that, but I guess if you have, if you have the pattern, then you can continue to be the only one doing it. So that brings in a little bit of balance. Um, because then the other people can't make the actual product for a while you got patterns in, I got patterns in lee.
Speaker 2:I managed it.
Speaker 3:I got patterns yeah, I knew, I knew you'd manage it somehow um another.
Speaker 2:So as you know you, so you imagine. One is one, one's got a great brand and suddenly one's seeing it being used online and the papers on tv in a generic way. What can? Is anything you can do about it is is it too late?
Speaker 1:um, I mean there's, there is stuff that you can, you can do to try to manage the situation.
Speaker 1:I think if you kind of see it coming, there's some things that you can do. I would always say for businesses just kind of be ahead of it Before that's a possibility, try to get everything in place and try to kind of use your mark in a way that you know in the best possible way for it to not become generic, so you can pair your trademark with a generic word. So I always say, like Lego, lego is the brand, but if you just call them Legos, then you know you're kind of allowing, allowing room for it to maybe become generic. But if you say Lego blocks, then you're talking about the blocks, but you've made it clear that Lego is your brand and also you can have lots of different products under the same brand and that actually makes it a little bit harder for the public to then use your brand to refer to one type of product makes sense so, uh, with vaseline, for example, you can have vaseline petroleum jelly, you can have vaseline body lotion, you can have vaseline hand cream.
Speaker 1:So when someone says you need to get some vaseline, well what? Which one? Which product um?
Speaker 1:yeah although I do think that one's on the on the brink a little bit, because when people say vaseline, everyone naturally thinks of the petroleum jelly. Yeah, that that's. That's something you can do. Um, you just have to stay vigilant as well. Really, keep an eye out, you know.
Speaker 1:If you see anybody sort of using it generically, even if it's referred to in like an article or in the press or in any way, you know, you should try to correct it, try to educate the public that actually this is a trademark, this is the brand. You can use the registered trademark symbol as well, right next to the right, next to the trademark, to show that actually this is the trademark, especially if you are using it with the generic word next to it. So lego registered trademark symbol in the top right hand corner and then blocks. You can have the trademark symbol in the top right-hand corner and then blocks. You can have the trademark in a more distinctive kind of bold font. There's lots of different ways that you can make that trademark stand out. And also, if you're licensing the mark as well, you need to make sure that your licensees are using it in the same way. So things like brand guidelines and trademark use guidelines are very helpful so that it's not just you. Anyone else who's affiliated with your mark or using your mark hopefully with your permission is doing the same thing.
Speaker 1:There's examples of quite a few companies actually that do that well. Examples of quite a few companies actually that do that well. Google actually have a brand resource page which has the do's and don'ts when it comes to trademark use. So how to use the mark, how to kind of say, google search engine and not looking it up on Google or Googling it, which I think we all do. We all say, oh, just Google it, and then people go and Google stuff on Bing. So it's, you know, you can try.
Speaker 1:But again it goes back to that point of very difficult to control the public. Biscoff, lotus, biscoff have a really good trademark use guidelines page and that advises people, especially those using Biscoff products in their recipes and things like that. It kind of advises them how to use it when you're advertising these products. So things like when it comes to naming these products that contain Biscoff products, how to communicate that on menus, communicate that in stores, and even photography you know how you shouldn't really layer the brand or the mark over photos, that kind of thing. So a lot of companies are trying to do things like that. But I mean's, these are not absolute solutions.
Speaker 2:You just kind of had to hope it's enough so you give it a go and you know you, you communicate um. How does it come off the register? Who decides it is generic? Did the, did the police get involved at this stage and come along and say I'm sorry, you've become generic, we're taking you off the register does?
Speaker 3:the trademark police, the police.
Speaker 2:They've got hats with a big r on, so amazing sight when they come for you. Um no, do they? Okay, not, probably not the police, but you know does. Does somebody else who doesn't want you to have the trademark anymore? What's the call? Their a vacuum cleaner or a hoover? Come along? Or does the comptroller of the patent office decide it's gone generic? How does it come off? How does it become legally generic?
Speaker 1:Well, this is actually quite funny because a lot of generic trademarks can just sit on the register. They can just sit on the register for a while until somebody decides to do something about it. Certainly in the UK somebody will have to come along and apply to revoke that mark and the grounds for doing that would have to be that it's now become generic, and then again it goes back to not being able to function as a trademark. If it's generic, it can't be a trademark. It might not have been when it was filed and registered and for however many years it was being used. But if anybody at all wants to come along and have your mark revoked on those grounds and they can apply to do so, and and then it eventually will be a registry decision.
Speaker 1:Actually, is it generic? Um, you know, you can. You can say, well, we've done this, it's not. We've done this, we've. We've done all of these things and taken all of these measures to make sure that our mark is a trademark and the public knows that it's a trademark. Um, but yeah, the registry. If they decide that actually is generic, then they can be revoked for that reason is it despite?
Speaker 2:yeah, you could make the best efforts in the world, but it doesn't matter if it hasn't. It's the outcome of the counts, not the effort.
Speaker 1:Okay yeah, exactly that. Yeah, and and that's. That's happened. Um, that's happened to to a lot of trademarks as well. Um, you know, you think you're using it as a trademark, but sometimes what you're doing just might not be enough to educate the public and create that kind of impression that this is a brand, this is not a product, this is a brand. If you haven't done that, then, yeah, you do run that risk.
Speaker 2:This is a question to Lee Lee. Do you remember Rollerblades? I remember Roll that. Then, yeah, you do run that risk. This is a question to Lee Lee. Do you remember rollerblades? I remember rollerblades. Yeah, they're not rollerblades, they're inline skates. How dare you? Of course they are. Of course they are.
Speaker 2:Yeah, when I started, one of my partner's job was to get press cuttings back in the day. It was press cuttings and he had the I'll look at it a few times because I'm sure it's still a very strong trademark but he had the exhausting job of every time. It was a big fad at the time and every time somebody said rollerblades he sent a letter saying I think you'll find they're actually called rollerblading line skates and I think it was the most awful, awful patch of his career. I think it was never ending. I don't actually know how that one panned out, but that was his job for a long time. Next is a stock letter Rollerblade inline skate. Nobody's going to call them rollerblade inline skate. No one's going to say anybody fancy going out to do some trampoline rebound tumbling. It's just like you say, lee. It's really difficult in the real world, isn't it?
Speaker 3:Or hey, I need to wrap some presents. Has anyone got a transparent, cellulose based, pressure sensitive adhesive tape, things he memorizes? Uh, yeah, no, no, I've got wikipedia open at the moment.
Speaker 2:Other online, other online resources for checking things like this are obviously available yeah, or anybody on the morphine based product that makes you a bit dreamy, yeah and so one of the questions and this may be, may be something that isn't within your area of sort of expertise, natasha, sorry about that.
Speaker 3:I was wondering, in sort of thinking about coming on the podcast is this, is it something that's peculiar to English language, or does this happen in sort of like with all languages? Is this sort of taking a brand and making it shorthand for something Is that common just across the world? Sort of take taking a brand and making it shorthand for something. Is that common just across the world.
Speaker 1:Um well, I'm not. I'm not entirely sure about in other languages, but I can imagine it being the case, I mean yeah with um.
Speaker 1:You know most, most countries in the world with you know, with english a lot, a lot of these trademarks are not just uk or us or um eu trademarks. They're international um marks. So some, some of these marks have actually become generic in a lot of countries where they speak lots of different languages as well. So I'm not entirely sure how it would work in other languages. I can imagine it being the same, but certainly English words that were once trademarks and have become generic, it kind of does have the same effect in other countries as well.
Speaker 3:And it didn't seem to me, looking at a long list of former trademarks that have been genericised. That's the header of the Wikipedia page, if anyone really wants to look it up. It didn't seem to me, looking at a long list of former trademarks that have been genericised. That's the header of the Wikipedia page, if anyone really wants to look it up. It didn't seem to me that there was a distinction between words that were fairly obvious, like air fryer I mean, that's as I say, that's describing what's happening as much as a brand and words that are in no way shape or form related to actually what the product is, that are in no way shape or form related to actually what the product is, like I don't know, like maybe Escalator or something else.
Speaker 1:It seems entirely random whether something becomes generic or not. Yeah, yeah, I mean, I think you're right. It's the way the public pick it up and how they choose to use it Once it's out there. That's it really, isn't it? I mean, one of the ones that I found really interesting. It's not actually, it's still a registered trademark, but it's quite generic still is Onesie.
Speaker 3:Oh, wow.
Speaker 1:That was just a silly word. You know, know you, you wouldn't, you wouldn't think that at all. Um, it's still a registered trademark, but, um, it's owned by a company called gerber children's wear, and um, they refer to it as adult body suits or whatever children's body suits or whatever. But um, you know anyone that buys that sort of product. You call it a onesie, no matter where you get it from. Um, and then there are other ones that are so obvious, like you said, like the air fryer one. Um, I've come across some of these recently and I'm really surprised as well. The cash point.
Speaker 2:Cash point is an actual trademark, um, for I'm getting so many, so many pub facts. I mean I'm gonna win the next pub conversation. I've got everything heroin cash point onesie. I'm all over this.
Speaker 1:This is brilliant yeah, I was really, really surprised by some of I think you probably know the ones like Post-it for sticky notes and Rizzler for rolling papers, but some of these ones, they really caught me off guard when I came across them Addictophone as well. Addictophone is a trademark that belongs to a company called Nuance Communications. They're part of Microsoft, I believe. But I mean, I would think Addictophone is just any product like that. I would call that Addictophone. You know, even when you're aware of these kind of issues, you can't help it. That's just how we are.
Speaker 3:That's how we speak. I love Jacuzzi, because I think all of us you say the word Jacuzzi. You know exactly what it is, don't you? It's a whirlpool bath, so you've gone there. So that's not just a brand or a trademark, that's become generic, but that's someone's name. So I think that was the italian inventor. Was um mr jacuzzi? I don't know his first name, so I should have written that down something, shouldn't I? And um? So it's gone from his name to the name of something he invented and then to something that's genetic, that's, that's, that's quite amazing. So he lives.
Speaker 2:So he lives forever now in the world war buff I was like I was interested in wi-fi, which is, I think, kind of the opposite, because I every now and I think, why is it called wi-fi? And then you think it makes no sense at all because it sounds like hi-fi, which was obviously short for high fidelity, but wi-fi isn't short for some white, white fidelity or something. It doesn't actually mean anything, but I think it seems to be the opposite of a trademark, because it seems to have been designed to become generic. So that's an interesting thing as well is that that's maybe one of the few successes where somebody actually wanted something to be generic from day one and succeeded, because I think there must be also a history of people trying to come up with words they really thought would catch on and they're being really disappointed when they didn't.
Speaker 2:But that's a different article that you haven't written. So I'm not, we're not going to test you on that, don't worry. It's actually more difficult, but I think it's. It is the branding people. It must be a struggle. I'd be chuffed, wouldn't you, lee, if you came up with a word and the whole world used. It'd be great, wouldn't it?
Speaker 3:so you know, I, I think I would, but I can I also get some sort of sense that if you do that for the purposes of identifying yourself with a particular brand or product, I get the fact that it could be problematic as well, but I think, yeah, the, the egotist within me would quite like that I've got a quick game I've just thought of oh go on then am I gonna like this?
Speaker 2:words that might be trademarks, but I don't know right. So mine, I've just thought of it. Now, flip-flop, I've no idea. Is that a trademark or not? It's a rubbish game, there's no answer. But I reckon flip-flop should be a generic trademark, but I don't know.
Speaker 1:It might be, I'm not sure about that one, but flip-phone certainly used to be owned by Motorola.
Speaker 2:That's not a trademark, that's just the name of a thing. What's yours, lee?
Speaker 3:so I was, um, I was thinking about Bluetooth, because I know the origins of Bluetooth, I know it's Nordic. Isn't it this invention? And it was? Wasn't it a king, uh kind of Viking king, uh, in this invention? And it was? Wasn't it a king, uh kind of viking king, uh, the albert bluetooth or some, some such person? And I don't know, then, why the kind of connection methodology device, whatever it is came to be named after such a person.
Speaker 2:But yeah, so I've no, I've no idea whether it's generic feels like it feels like it is carrying onairing with this completely pointless game because we don't know the answers. Microwave I wonder if that was a trademark that became generic. It's a great game We've got like all day.
Speaker 3:Poor Natasha's looking entirely stupid. Gwilym has invented a game on the hoof that is.
Speaker 2:I'm quite enjoying it.
Speaker 1:So how do you win who?
Speaker 2:wins's not a game, is it?
Speaker 3:it's just silly um, oh, do you know what? This is the ip version of mornington crescent. That would rather mean. That would rather mean something to you or not?
Speaker 2:obviously, this is my number I never get, yeah, I never get invited. By the way, can you tell?
Speaker 1:well, they'll invite you now with all your facts.
Speaker 3:Yeah so what's the? If so, if someone is starting out on the long road to um, to taking a product to market, what, what's the golden? Is there any golden rule around brand name that someone could follow to try and not find themselves in this position? Or is it just a game of chance, like Gwilym's game he made up?
Speaker 1:Very similar to Gwilym's game actually. No well, I mean, I think you can stay on the right lines with kind of coming up with a new trademark. Up with a new trademark which is distinctive and brilliant and probably might look like it'll catch on and become well-known. But, as I was saying before, it's really hard to avoid this. This is more to do with the success of the product or the company rather than the work behind picking them up, or the company rather than the work behind picking them up, because really it's to do with how popular you become or how well-known you are, and then that's what has the effect on the mark. Really, it's really difficult to then pick a trademark and kind of bear this in mind when you probably don't even know where your business is going to go, really. So it's hard to kind of uh, look at this at the beginning, I think I thought good, I was getting ready to say something.
Speaker 2:I'm just yeah, take my game in my head, because no one else likes it. I'm winning what it's worth so.
Speaker 3:So, natasha, we're coming sort of towards the end now. One of my jobs on the podcast is to keep time, um, so just remind us that we're sort of like at, or close to, stopping time. Is there anything that you're sat there thinking, oh, they didn't ask me that one, or I was expecting a harder question. Anything else you want to sort of like get in at the end?
Speaker 1:um, do I have anything else like uh, if not if.
Speaker 3:If not, let me ask you. This isn't my closer question, william, I think I've got a closer question. It might not work. I'll explain the closer question in a minute, natasha, but this is just a general. Interesting. Do you have a favorite generic? I'm doing my favorite.
Speaker 1:Oh, let's hear yours hovercraft.
Speaker 3:One because before today, when I bothered to do a little bit of research, I didn't know, it was generic um. And two because, of course, being from portsmouth, I do sort of come from and still live in an area where there was commercial hovercraft operating between us and the Isle of Wight.
Speaker 1:So, um, I found, I found that fascinating, so that is now my favorite generic word oh nice, I um, I really wish I went on a hovercraft, um, because I went to university in Portsmouth and I really, really wanted to and, uh, the whole three years I was there, I never did it. So I think you said the whole three years you was there.
Speaker 3:I never did it. So I think you said the whole three years you were there. The weather was too bad and it was not operating.
Speaker 1:I just never got around to trying it, but I always wanted to. Um, anyway, that's off topic, but it's quite an experience is it, yeah, yeah it's.
Speaker 1:It's somewhere between exhilarating and terrifying I might have to go back to portsmouth just to try that, just to do that. Um, do I have a favorite? I'm not sure if I have a favorite, but one that always makes me laugh is when I watch american movies or tv shows and they always say band-aid, that's it. When you hurt yourself, oh, let's get a band-aid, you need say band-aid. When you hurt yourself, oh, let's get a band-aid. You need a band-aid for that. I'm thinking why on earth do they call it a band-aid? It's a plaster, that's what we call it here in the UK. It's a plaster, but yes. So I think that's probably the one that sticks out a lot to me.
Speaker 3:So does that mean you can have some things that are generic in some countries with jurisdictions and not in others?
Speaker 1:oh yeah, absolutely yeah oh yeah, I hadn't appreciated that yeah, there's, uh, there's, there's quite a few marks like that um in the us. It looks like, uh, I mean, generally trademark law, um in the us is a little bit, a little bit stricter, even when it comes to things like maintenance and that sort of thing. There's sort of more requirements to fulfil during the life of a trademark. But it looks to me that a lot of marks become generic in the US but they're still okay and registered in other territories in the EU, in the UK and various other countries. But in the US it seems that a lot of marks become generic easier, I would say, than elsewhere.
Speaker 3:And it's interesting that you used the Band-Aid example, because I remember being old enough to remember Band-Aid, the charity fundraising initiative for poverty and hunger. I think I'm thinking. I don't get it. Why have they called it Band-Aid?
Speaker 2:That's just, I didn't get the play on words because we didn't use it in the UK in the 80s, I guess air fryer because, let's face it, it's kind of descriptive probably doesn't become generic in other languages because they're not going to call it an air fryer. They're going to translate air fryer into the relevant language.
Speaker 3:Oh, okay, gotcha.
Speaker 2:I'm not sure what that is in French, but I can't do it because I don't know what frying is, I can't remember what era it is, actually probably. No, I'm not going to say I have no idea. Free to a day, I don't know, I don't care, move on. Another bad game, two bad games, one podcast. What's going on?
Speaker 3:You're on a roll.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I'm now thinking of other names, people's names that then become related to a product and then become generic, and I'm thinking Biro. That's true.
Speaker 1:Well, that's Biro, isn't it? Yes, yeah, biro is one owned by Bic. Yeah, and we call any sort of pen like that ballpoint pen Biro, don't we? Yeah, yeah, yeah, that's certainly one. And you know, just touching on that Marvel and DC superhero issue, that's one that, to be honest, I didn't know was a registered trademark until this whole issue happened, because I have never I don't think I have ever seen Marvel or DC use it as if it's a trademark. I don't think I've ever seen them do that, because they always use the names of their superheroes or you know, when they kind of have like the teams, like the Avengers and that sort of thing. You know you can tell that that's a trademark and they use it in that way. But I had no idea that superhero was a registered trademark owned by them. So that was very interesting.
Speaker 3:Yeah, that was where this started, wasn't it? And I found that quite surprising as well, hence my interest in the article when I saw it. So, gwilymum, I'm struggling for a closer. So what we normally do, natasha, is at the end of the podcast we come up with generally, me offer, grillum, we'll come up with some kind of tangential question that sort of relates to things that we've talked about, um, but takes us down a bit of a otherwise blind alley or um rabbit hole, or whatever it might be. It's such an eclectic discussion, william, that I can't. I can't think of one. We've you. You had you had your game that seemed to you should have saved it to the end.
Speaker 2:That's quite a good one.
Speaker 3:Well, we can play my game again oh good, then one more round of your game. Right me first.
Speaker 2:You first, though, yeah yeah, tombstone, I reckon I was a train, a trademark by the Undertaker industry and they let it go generic.
Speaker 3:Oh, I thought you meant the town, no, there you go.
Speaker 2:That's a classic example. The name of the town.
Speaker 3:Was that Gunfight at the OK Club?
Speaker 2:Apparently they named the gravestone after the film. I'm making a rule up, lee, this is a rubbish game. I just don't understand the rule. I think it's say a word is the name of this game.
Speaker 1:Any word.
Speaker 2:Any word you like.
Speaker 1:I've forgotten the rules too.
Speaker 3:I remember Podcast, and I'll end it there, gwilym. So, natasha, now, yeah, I'm not even going to make Natasha suffer having to come up with another one. It's a rubbish game. It's now consigned to the podcasting history of nothingness, I'm afraid. So, natasha, thank you so much for coming on. It's been an absolute delight. Thank you for regaling us with your amazing game. I'm now going to go. There are a few people in the super office today. I'm going to go outside and play it now. I think you are. Yeah, if you're listening to the podcast, of course you are, why wouldn't you be? And you've enjoyed it and you want to help other people find out where we are? Leave us a little review, and that that makes it easier for people to find us. Thank you both We'll see you next time.