Two IPs In A Pod
Brilliant inventions, fresh product designs, iconic brand names and artistic creativity are not only the building blocks of successful business - they deliver a better world for us all. But these valuable forms of intellectual property must be protected in order to flourish. We are the Chartered Institute of Patent Attorneys - the UK's largest intellectual property organisation. Our hosts Lee Davies and Gwilym Roberts chat with entrepreneurs, creatives, patent attorneys and the occasional judge about how patents, trade marks, designs and copyright can improve our lives and solve problems for humanity.
Two IPs In A Pod
Mental Health Training for Line Managers
It's Mental Health Awareness Week and Lee and Gwilym are joined by Penelope Aspinall from the Jonathan’s Voice charity, along with Joanne Donaldson (HLK), Cathy Bailey (UK Intellectual Property Office) and Sally Bannan (Cytiva), for a powerful discussion on the vital mental health training that the charity provides for line managers in IP firms. The group explores how this training supports healthier, more compassionate workplaces—both from within an organisation and from the outside looking in—highlighting its real-world impact on teams and leaders alike.
To access the numerous resources offered by Jonathan's Voice, visit their website: http://jonathansvoice.org.uk/
That point about learning more about your colleagues as part of the training is one that certainly hasn't occurred. Yes, we're building a common language, working better as a team, not just learning how to be a better manager for an individual. I'm wondering also if one learns a little bit about oneself.
Speaker 2:Lee Davis and Gwilym Roberts are the two IPs in a pod and you are listening to a podcast on intellectual property brought to you by the Chartered Institute of Patent Attorneys.
Speaker 4:Hey, gwilym, how are you? I'm really good. I'm gearing up. I didn't even give you a chance to reply then, did I? I was just going to tell you how I was. How are you? I'm really well. How are you, lee? You know I'm really good. Just a little bit disappointed that I put on a put on a more of a summery shirt today. I know I know the color probably doesn't look it, but you probably can't see from through the camera that it's like crocheted. And it was a mistake, because the wind was blowing through it this morning and I felt quite cold also do give me a slight headache, because it's um playing happy it's strobing, isn't it?
Speaker 4:yeah, yeah, I didn't appreciate, it isn isn't summary, it's quite goth.
Speaker 1:I'm afraid lee from color scheme perspective it was.
Speaker 4:It was summary, in the sense that it's crocheted, and I thought that that would give me a feeling of sort of being at one with the sunshine. Uh, but the sunshine's gone, so why do you associate crochet with sunshine? Yeah, no idea. Perhaps I thought I was gonna get a little bit of a micro suntan or something like that like sunbathing through a sieve yeah, yeah, you know exactly that.
Speaker 4:Hey, it's just something like a patent, only more. We disclosed it. Oh no, of course I always make. I always make that mistake. You know, I always give away my inventions. Oh well, you've been up to bank all day weekend, did you think exciting?
Speaker 1:oh no, but that was a good thing, because I'm very happy not to do exciting things. Got, I've got beth, so he did lovely beth things. But we are currently gearing up for next Sunday for a giant teddy bear's picnic. Oh cool, why next Sunday is it birthday time? No, that's when it is. It's in the local park because there's a giant picnic. We don't know whether it's a giant picnic for teddy bears, picnic for giant teddy bears. There's various variants on it, so you can bring a picnic in a giant teddy bear.
Speaker 4:I think it's probably that is such a typical patent attorney way to interpret what. What is just a way of describing a very friendly event, isn't it?
Speaker 1:it's ambiguous and, I think, unfortunately quite difficult to infringe, so I wouldn't.
Speaker 4:I wouldn't have granted a patent on that claim so sometimes on the podcast, uh, conversation about mental health. So, um, we've got a big posse of guests with us today, gullum. So this this always taxes us, doesn't it? Because it's it's quite difficult to keep one person in order, let alone four, which is where we are today. So let's get our guests on and get them to introduce themselves. If that's okay, penny, shall I start with you? Is it? Are you the most obvious person to come to first? Yeah, I don't know. I don't know.
Speaker 5:You can very well start with me. So I'm Penny Aspinall and I am the mental health consultant for the charity Jonathan's Voice. But at the end of May I'm stepping down and my role will be taken over by some wonderful person called Donna Smith. So this is my kind of the end of my farewell tour if you like. So I'm pleased to be here, to be joining you today.
Speaker 4:So who have you got with you, Penny? Who do you want to bring on first?
Speaker 5:So what I really wanted to bring on today was a sort of group of people who could give their perspective about why line manager training is important. So we've got Joanne Donaldson, who's head of operations Well, she can introduce herself. So I think we've got a good selection of people who can talk about this really important issue from different angles to get a real 360 degree look at why line manager training is a good thing.
Speaker 4:Yeah, hi Joe, and welcome to the podcast.
Speaker 2:Hi, so my name's Joe. I'm head of operations at Hazeltine Lake, kempner, where I've been for about the last 19 years. I joined originally as a patent administrator, was a manager for a team of patent administrators there for about six years and then moved into my current role about three years ago. I'm a member of the mental health and well-being group at HLK and I'm a mental health first aider, and I've worked on quite a few projects with Jonathan's Voice over the last few years, including having Penny to come and do some mental health for line manager training with us last year with a group of our line managers.
Speaker 4:Cool. Who should we talk to next? Penny.
Speaker 5:Let's talk to Cathy.
Speaker 6:Thank you. So I'm Cathy Bailey. I manage one of our chemistry and biotech groups in the intellectual property office. I previously was a patent examiner. Years ago actually left. I had some counselling when I was suffering bereavement at the time and left the organisation and ran wellbeing offerings in many different places, including mental health managers, training in different places and mental health as they training got drawn back into the intellectual property office where I've now found actually all that stuff as a manager is really really important and useful and do lots of well-being work whilst I'm here.
Speaker 5:Thank you, Finally, we thought we better have an attorney in the mix, so we asked Sally to come and join. It's not that Gwilym isn't an attorney, of course yeah.
Speaker 7:So, yeah, penny asked me to to get involved in this and I'm delighted to be here. Thank you, penny, to bring. I'm bringing the perspective of a patent attorney, probably more from an employee perspective rather than a manager, although I have had manager responsibilities in the past. But you know, like most people, I've hit the buffers from time to time with my mental health and so giving a little bit of perspective about that and times when you know I've been managed well and maybe not so well, even with the best will in the world. You know well-meaning managers but not necessarily the best environment.
Speaker 7:Sometimes in my past life and I think where I am now, the team that I'm with now does a pretty good job, to be honest. So can maybe talk about that a bit as well and what I think feels good from an employee. From a patent attorney perspective. I'm a senior European patent attorney and I work in-house. I've always worked in-house, so that would be where I'm a senior European patent attorney and I work in-house. I've always worked in-house, so that would be where I'm coming from.
Speaker 4:Cool. So where do we start the conversation I?
Speaker 5:can kick off.
Speaker 5:So basically and I think Cathy can back this up there's been research from various different quarters and it's been endorsed by the World Health Organization that there is a lot of benefit to training line managers in supporting mental health in your organization, both in the individual employees but also in creating a culture that in itself supports mental health, because I'm a great sort of proponent of saying let's focus on preventative and proactive measures as well as dealing with individuals if they start to struggle.
Speaker 5:And so there's a lot of evidence out there to show that if you're going to invest in anything to support mental health in your organisation, your best bet really is to go for some lie manager training, and that is ideally not an hour long online sort of talk, but something proper at least a day, I would say.
Speaker 5:That can really bring about some kind of real learning so that line managers, who are often just made into managers because they're good at the job with very little preparation, can really get the skills and the confidence in being able to recognise if somebody is starting to struggle with their mental health or wellbeing and also to be able to then approach them or, if somebody comes to them, know how to deal with it, to put in place the right kind of adjustments, just to know how to have that conversation, where to refer and so on. This is not something I think you can do by magic or by instinct. Some people obviously are probably better at it than others, but by no means not everybody. So, as I say, I'm a great fan of thinking okay, let's get some training in place just to help people with that, and also create maybe a community of line managers so they feel confident.
Speaker 4:if they're starting to wobble with this or not quite sure about what to do, they can get support from each other and can I just test, uh, what we mean when we say line manager, penny, just to make sure that we're all talking about the same thing, because sometimes it's used almost exclusively for those people that have got relatively senior roles and are managing a number of teams, many people, uh, sometimes it's used in that more distributed fashion where it's anyone who's got any kind of management or supervisory role involving one or more other people, and I'm guessing we're at that second definition, are we?
Speaker 5:it's anyone who's managing people I think joanne could answer that question really well.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I think we're probably um, coming at it from the second um approach, certainly from the work that we've been doing at HLK. We're looking at anyone who has any kind of management responsibility for someone else. The skills and things that we're talking about here and a lot of the information is actually really relevant to all of our interactions with other colleagues. You know it's relevant for everyone. But yeah, from a general sense, we're looking at any form of line management responsibility for one or more cool.
Speaker 1:I'm wondering a bit about, um, somebody who is a line manager, as you say, at any, any level, who is told oh, you need to do some mental health training. And certainly my immediate questions are how long, how often and what's in it? And I mean, penny, you've given a hint there about the duration a day's worth, but I mean, is that a day that has to be run in one block, or can you spit it out? How does it all work? How does it? What does it? What does it sound like when you actually have this training?
Speaker 5:oh, I can talk from my point of view, and I'm sure kathy could sort of talk from her point of view as well. So I think it's really difficult. There's always that tension between giving up the time to do something well and thinking I can't spare the time, so let's do it in smaller chunks. And it's a huge temptation, I think, since perhaps possibly since the pandemic, to do things online and in small chunks because they're practically much more doable than giving up a whole day, ideally in person. I'd say a minimum of a day, ideally in person. And I think the in-person thing gives some real benefit that you don't get from online, because you can sort of build up a sense of trust and connect with other people and chat with other people in a way that is not impossible, but much harder online. And I think it's much harder to concentrate over a longer period of time if you're doing a training online. So in my ideal world we'd be looking at a group of perhaps a maximum of about 18 in a room together for a day. That would be my ideal.
Speaker 5:But I do recognize that we don't live in an ideal world and that maybe there are other ways of thinking about it and doing it if one's being pragmatic. So, for example, I did do something with one firm. They couldn't do that, so I did well, just two hours. But I said I'm just going to focus on one specific area of it, which was about having the conversation, recognise the signs and symptoms and having the conversation. And we did that quite effectively online. It had good feedback, but that was just one little small part, I think, of the whole picture. I mean, I don't know if, Cathy, you want to add anything around your experience of delivery.
Speaker 6:Yeah, well, I think there's so much you can do and I think I'd like to just move the focus away from it being a one-off, one-hit thing to something that's sort of flexible, embedded and I think you know, but also being very responsive to the needs of the managers and looking at the evidence in the organisation. What's going on. Like, you know, if there's massive issues with stress, it might be there's a focus on stress. Um, if there's a lot of feedback saying, actually, managers haven't got the skills and the resources or the time to spend time having the conversations, yeah, maybe we need to look at that. So there's that kind of more holistic view.
Speaker 6:Um, but I think managing mental health, training such an important part of that and the reactive skill they could be, like you know, even just having an awareness, awareness session at start can make a difference. Um, you know, I think with training, it's how long is a pit string? And that day, penny, sounds like a brilliant idea, um, you know, and if an organization can invest that time in the managers so they can spend the whole day looking at the skills they've got, um, and the guidance changes. So you know, people like, so people might have like an instinctive way of managing. That's actually really good for mental health.
Speaker 6:But even if so, having that time to reflect and look at how we do it and how we can better and be better can be really important, and just looking at current research and evidence and what's good and also making sure that's not the end of the story. So, if we do have a day's training, have follow-up conversations, like something we did we had training for managers, but we put in kind of reflection sessions afterwards so people could have time to embed the training and then kind of reflect on what was good and what was working, and so it's something that carries on and we keep thinking about it as well. So, yeah, there's always more, there is always more. But guess, making sure that we put things in place, see what happens, look at the feedback and don't make that the last thing in the story.
Speaker 5:Yeah, and I'd like to add just one more point that also having a training that everybody does can ensure some sort of consistency of you, because because I know we found um, even within certain small organizations there can be quite inconsistent ways that people interpret or understand what, what's meant to be done, um. And so I suppose at least if you, if you can manage to train everybody together if training is the right word, or brief, everybody together, then at least you're getting a consistent message across the organization yeah, I'd like.
Speaker 7:Yeah, it picks up on this aspect of culture as well, doesn't it? And you know what Cathy was saying about like sustaining things? And Penelope, getting people aligned is it's not about like just ticking the box, that people have been trained. It's a mindset within an organisation that this is what we're doing. We think it's that, um, this is what we're doing, we think it's important and this is how we're doing it.
Speaker 7:I remember when I was younger and I had a bit of a dip in my mental health, being sent away for a series of cognitive behavioral therapy sessions and I really felt like my manager just ticked a box, you know, and the manager was a very well-meaning person, um, and I think it wasn't, you know, coming from him. I think it was that the organization was in a bit of a tick box mode about mental health, um related um things, um at that point in time. So, um, yeah, that that holistic, sustaining approach, that this is part of our culture. This is what we're doing, it's important.
Speaker 7:Um is key. You're creating that fertile soil in the organization as well, so that when the people are coming along to the training, they see the point. You know, to what you were saying earlier, guillem, um, you know why am I here, why am I doing this? Um, if everyone buys into the concept that it's part of the organization's culture, then the thing happens and the goodwill is there, um, and the, the behaviors are sustained and people are alert to it. So it's something that's always happening rather than just being a training that people have done that's your point on the consistent messaging is really that resonates?
Speaker 1:actually, we had in my office. We had some training on a completely separate thing about strategy. We were told the strategy is about having a vision and then strategy is how you achieve your vision. But the guy had a flip chart and he blew a, drew a blue line between where you are now and the vision. And the whole partnership now talks about whether something's on the blue line or not. And we have. If you didn't know what the background was, you wouldn't understand that at all. But it means that we've got this incredible shorthand for making sure that we're speaking exactly the same language. So the consistency point does it does resonate really strongly actually. But also that point about it fitting in with, you know, with particular circumstances of the business. I was going to ask, jo, if I may, you mentioned you've done some of this. What shape did it take for you guys?
Speaker 2:Yeah, so we ran it as a full in-person day. We did it back in November Last year. We implemented a management development program for some of our line managers, so that was a scheme that was put in place for sort of general line management skills training for a collection of about a dozen people from across the business all different levels, those with line management responsibility or those that might be progressing to that stage. And then we I got the agreement to run the mental health line manager training as an extra day, sort of at the end of the course. That worked really well for us in the sense that we had a group of people who were already sort of really engaged in the process of learning and in taking that dedicated time out of their work to focus on learning new skills in relation to line management.
Speaker 2:I think it was a really positive day.
Speaker 2:It definitely makes a difference having it in person, being able to sort of interact, share stories with each other, get to know people in a way that you probably wouldn't if you were doing this on a Teams call or something like that.
Speaker 2:And certainly I found that I got different perspectives about people that I work with regularly, just because we're sharing things that we're not used to sharing perhaps, and I think it was really good as well. We sort of looked at some of our internal policies and how we deal with like what offerings we have to support people who might be going through difficult periods, who might be going through difficult periods, and that was really useful to be able to discuss that in a group so that we could talk about how might you go about reasonable adjustments or supporting someone on return to work and when you're in an organisation that has a lot of blind managers, that's really important to make sure that you're getting that consistent message out and the consistent experience Because I think that's one of the things that I'm very conscious of is that people, individuals within the organization can have very different experiences with their line managers. So if we're sort of sending out the same message, then it helps support that consistent approach for us.
Speaker 4:So, gwyneth, I know you've got more to say there, but what I heard there, jo, if it's okay for me just quickly test, that is so I'm. I think I'm hearing that there is more to training line managers in uh, mental health awareness development than than just the the individual benefit, the benefit that they would have in their relationships with the people that they're responsible for, for managing. I think I heard that there's kind of team building development opportunities there and generally encouraging people to work better and smarter together, but also there are organisational development benefits. I think that's what I heard. Is that right?
Speaker 2:Yeah, absolutely. I think there's benefits across the board. It's for you as an individual, as a manager, to learn better skills so you feel more comfortable in supporting your colleagues, you better understand how to relate to your line manager as well and to kind of keep those conversations open. But, yeah, it's creating that environment for everyone which is really important as well to make sure that it becomes. You know, we're all used to how to recognise changes in each other and to support that without making changes rash judgments, um, and encouraging people to actually talk about what's what's happening in their lives and, um how that might be affecting them and how we can support them through that, because we're all going through different things all the time thank you can I ask?
Speaker 1:oh, can I ask a tricky one, sally.
Speaker 4:No one suggests Sally, you mentioned. No one suggests.
Speaker 1:No one said no. Go for it. Gwilym Sally, you said that you know sometimes you've had good handling and sometimes not so good handling, and it's generally been well-meaning, which I'd like to believe is going to be the case. Actually, my basic question do you think there's any distinction between the handling between people of, maybe, different generations, Maybe just chucking that one in as a person from a certain generation?
Speaker 7:I think there's probably lots of factors. You know it's someone's personal circumstances, someone's personality, their style of managing. I'm just reflecting on different managers that I've had and Rolodexing through them in my head. You know, there was one person who set one-to-ones in my calendar but routinely didn't keep them, which was very bad, you know. And and joe, you were mentioning that like about keeping the conversation open between the line manager and the people they're managing. If you don't keep your one-to-ones, it's just, you know that's, it's stressful because you lose. And again, it's kind of like going back to that like strategy thing, willem, you know that, um, if you're keeping everyone aligned, you need to keep the interactions going and the conversations going, um, and something as simple as like having a one-to-one on a regular basis and keeping it prioritizing. It is super helpful and it's helpful for them, like the, the manager as well, quite frankly, because you know if something's going on for the person you're managing, you want to know about it and guide them through it. So that was a stressful time for me and I was relatively senior then I was a senior IP counsel in that role, but I just, you know, it's like we're all working 90 miles an hour and you just need to have that like okay, touch base, um.
Speaker 7:So I think there's multiple things in answer to your question, like the generational can impact it. I mean, when I think of the kind of generational thing I I probably more think of, like my trajectory over the last 20 or so years that I've been working, that back in the day it was done probably more traditionally, you didn't necessarily bring your personal stuff to the office, it wasn't encouraged. I think that for me anyway, that's changed and I imagine for others as well, that I was probably, you know, guided towards, towards. You know, when I'm talking to my manager, I'm talking about professional things. You're not talking about personal things with your manager. But now it's the opposite, not? You know that.
Speaker 7:You know you have to talk about things. Everyone should only um speak about their personal things to the extent they feel comfortable. But bringing your whole self to work is important for you and for the team. And if you've got at least one person that you can confide in about personal things in the workplace, it's so helpful, it's so so helpful, you know. I mean I even noticed. I mean I'm in, I'm in my early f 50s now and there's a, a lady who left, who's a similar age to me, and I miss her being around to talk about things like perimenopause, like god. You know, I feel really like anxious today and she's like I don't worry about it. You know, I felt like that and having that sounding board and you just calm down when you've got someone to confide in, even if it's just one person.
Speaker 5:Um, so, certainly over the years that's changed and that's probably reflecting, you know, different generational ways of thinking, penny can I just add also that it's not easy um doing this stuff and that often managers are expected to somehow incorporate it into their everything else they have to do, without perhaps being given the acknowledgement that if you have got quite I've got a reason sized team and you're doing regular one to ones, that is going to be taking time out of your day and your workload, out of your day and your workload, and it's sometimes quite hard to manage that. If it's somehow, you know people somehow expect it just to sort of happen as if by magic, without acknowledging this could take up quite a big chunk of your time. And if you are supporting somebody who's really struggling, that can take even more time and also a certain amount of emotional energy as well. And again, I think that needs to be acknowledged. And maybe that's a generational shift, because back in the day when you never brought your work problems to work, perhaps the delineations were clearer. You didn't even have one-to-ones. I remember you might've had an annual review and that was about it, unless you specifically went to seek your line manager out. So I think it's not only a generational shift in terms of age and maybe younger generations having a more, being able to talk more comfortably about their mental health issues and their problems and expect that, expect to be looked after at work. But maybe it's it's in systems as well that this is all now being built much more into your role as a manager, that you are going to be expected to be taking care of your staff in a way that maybe 20, 30 years ago you wouldn't have the same extent.
Speaker 5:So I think another reason why it is good to have some training and also for firms to sort of acknowledge that actually this can be quite difficult and needs to be factored in to what you're expected to do in your role if you have managerial responsibilities and I certainly would like to say that from a personal experience where I sort of ended up with 18 direct reports in one job I had and I thought, oh my God, if I'm seeing them every fortnight for a half hour, one to one, I'm not going to have time to do anything else this is completely unrealistic.
Speaker 5:So sometimes I think there is a disconnect between what these sort of angelic line managers are meant to do and what they can in reality do. So just say I have a huge sympathy if line managers are struggling with this or perhaps you know, feel, oh my god, this isn't quite realistic, so so. So I know I was being a bit devil's advocate here, but that's why I think it's really good to have a sort of support network around you so you can talk around this stuff and feel that there are people you can share the look but, kathy, I think you say something yeah it's gonna just answer me a question about different generations and I think you can have people of any generation being a great line manager or not a great line manager, and some of the stats on how managers impact mental health were told me about.
Speaker 6:There was a couple of years ago and I think about half the people who responded had quit a job because of their line manager and I think about a quarter of the respondents had had nightmares because of a line manager.
Speaker 6:So it can have that massive negative impact but also that massive positive impact and as a counsellor, the people who come and have really good line manager support makes such a difference and there was some sort of evidence saying that actually that social support from line managers can have more of a positive effect than counselling sometimes.
Speaker 6:So you know we can't downplay it but, agreeing with Penny, that doesn't always come easily and you know, even people are really good at supporting their people and it can use time, it can use energy and for all those reasons, you know even people are really good at supporting their people and it can use time, it can use energy and you know, for all those reasons, you know, I think, if you're a line manager supporting somebody with mental health problems. Just making sure you're feeling supported and part of that might be the training, you know, making sure you've got the skills, you're doing the right stuff can make you feel more confident, which can help you feel supported. But making sure you speak to other people as well and you, you know you're not alone and you're not carrying it all on your shoulders that's pretty interesting.
Speaker 1:That's definitely saying, isn't it? You don't leave your job, you leave your boss. I've definitely heard that worryingly, um, and I've never little personal revelation. I've never had a disturbing, no, I've never had a nightmare about a manager. I haven't a disturbing dream of one that I'm not going to go into, so that was.
Speaker 4:That was enough. That could be the closer question. That could be the answer question what?
Speaker 1:what disturbing dream have you had about your boss? Not sure, not sure. I'm actually going to um comment, though, on the go back to very early on. Actually penny your point about making it a day, and obviously you can't always do it, but I do. I can see, conversely, that the business says we have put a day aside for this, put everything away and go do it. It feels like a really important message. If you say, oh, dial in for one hour recordings when you've got a minute, you're kind of not really supporting it as a business. I'm not saying businesses have to make it a day, by the way, but I can see why that would give it extra weight definitely, and I agree with kathy that a one-off day isn't.
Speaker 5:You know, there needs to perhaps be follow-up in an ideal world and maybe some other follow-up kind of sessions, perhaps on oh I, I didn't quite get it about reasonable adjustments. Maybe you know there's somewhere I could go to top up on that, but I do think that I for me, I think you can't replicate the in-person bit, because I always think you get more learning from your colleagues and the other participants than you do from the person standing up front talking. There's a much more experiential kind of learning. Those are hard moments, those oh, my goodness, you do it like that. Or oh gosh, I'm not the only one who feels like that. Or, oh, that's a good idea. I think that's much, much more.
Speaker 5:I think that's the kind of learning you remember, because something shifts inside you rather than listening to somebody and you think, oh, that was really interesting, and then a week later you've forgotten all about it. You know, I mean you. You know, let's face it that that that does happen. So something that actually creates that shift inside you, I think is really important. And in an ideal world where you've experienced the need for it as well, where you think, oh gosh, you know I have no idea what I'm doing here. And then somebody comes along and says, right, come and have this training. Oh gosh, yes, that'd be really helpful.
Speaker 5:Then I think you're going to get much more buy-in from from people going, rather than I got to go along to this boring old training. Yeah, I mean because we're only human and maybe think I haven't got time for this, but, as as kathy was saying, all the evidence does show that they're investing that time does pay back dividends. I mean, it's always difficult, isn't it as well? But do you make it mandatory or do you make it that you choose to go on? And often it's a self-selecting group and the kind of people who choose to attend this sort of training are probably the kind of people who don't need it as much as the kind of people who choose not to attend it. But I don't know how you get round that.
Speaker 7:That's the same with everything, I think, all these sort of trainings. Yeah, I was just going to say, on the kind of in-person side of things as well, that you know if that training's done well. And you're talking about mental health, you're talking about a topic that's quite personal and, in an ideal world, you're getting people to be more vulnerable than they ordinarily would, so that even in and of itself is helping the organization, because you're getting to know your colleagues, your fellow manager colleagues, in a way that you wouldn't otherwise get to know them when they're, like you know, sharing things that they wouldn't necessarily ordinarily share, because you have to in the context of a mental health training day that point about learning more about your colleagues and everything as as part of the training as well, that certainly hasn't occurred.
Speaker 1:Yes, we're building a common language, working better as a team, not just learning how to be better manager for an individual. I'm wondering also if one learns a little bit about oneself. I can imagine going along and thinking hang on a minute, maybe I should pay a bit more attention to myself for a moment yeah, it's honestly, that's a really good point, willem.
Speaker 7:Sometimes we don't realize that we're stressed out. I've gone through probably a series of four-day weeks, with bank holidays and taking other days off, and I had a dream that I was sitting my EQEs last week, based on the level of preparedness that I have as I'm sitting here now, and it was really stressful. And I woke up and I realized, because I'd had that dream, hang on, you're feeling a bit anxious about work, you know, because you're going 90 miles an hour. So, I mean, and that's where the mental health for managers training is valuable being able to spot when people are struggling, when they might not even know themselves or they might. They might know, but they're, you know, so caught up in it that they don't feel able to reach out, because you can feel so down that you're just enclosed within your feelings and don't feel able to reach out.
Speaker 7:Um, and that's the scenario where you need people to have the spider sense to. You know, and it's an easy conversation to start when you know how it's like. It's not rocket science, are you okay? And taking someone aside for just a little conversation like that can be very powerful. Um, when the person either doesn't know or can't, doesn't feel like they're able to, to seek support can I, um, can I quickly dive in willem?
Speaker 4:is that all right, fab? Thank you, uh, so, joe kathy sally, and I'm sorry I should have done my little bit of research beforehand and asked this have you all done the training?
Speaker 6:done training, but not penny's training.
Speaker 4:But not penny's training, okay, so I can't. So I can't ask a question about this training specifically, and that's um, I have done this training.
Speaker 2:Um, I was part of the, I organized it and then and joined the session for it joe, that means that I'm coming to you now.
Speaker 4:Sorry about that, but so I I mean I've I've obviously done this kind of training in the past. Um, I've not actually done it whilst I've been at sleep, so that means I've not done it for 13 years and I'm now feeling quite guilty about that. And I know that when people go on training like this it you can feel quite apprehensive, because sometimes you feel like you're asked to share stuff that's close to you and personal to you and these kinds of things. Can you give us like a helicopter view of what the training's like, what what people might expect to go through? Is that okay?
Speaker 2:like what what people might expect to go through. Is that okay? Yeah, of course. Um. So the I think the benefit of having the full day is that you get the um sort of more coverage, um of the different topics. So, um, for us the day started with talking about sort of mental health and well-being in general and then also looking at how we fit into that as individuals, how we need to look after ourselves to be able to look after other people, um how to spot if people are struggling, how to have conversations, and then leading into what our organization itself might be offering to support people. So there was, there was a real broad range that we covered. Penny was great.
Speaker 2:We did it in sessions of presentation sections and then having sort of breaking into small groups to have discussions about it, and I think that was really useful in helping people open up. I mean, the group that we had most of them had been working together in a group periodically for over sort of a six month period, so they were used to talking to each other and opening up to each other already. But breaking down into the small groups helped. You're only talking to one person, two people maybe and so it's a little bit easier to be a bit more vulnerable rather than saying it to the full group. But we did also have bits where we stopped and opened up to the group.
Speaker 2:Penny would ask a question and people sort of spoke up and I think that was really helpful people that you didn't have to speak out if you weren't comfortable with doing that. But I think when you start hearing from other people, you get like you, you feel more comfortable yourself and I think, going into these sessions knowing that it's essentially, you know, a safe space to talk about these topics yeah, no judgment, you're not. You know you might say something that other people wouldn't. That wouldn't be their first reaction, but that's okay and that's the point of these sessions is to find out how people react in these situations and how we can learn from each other and from materials. So you know, from a totally practical point of view of the day, I think we started at half nine and finished sort of around three. You know we had a few breaks during the day, so there's a lot of material covered. But then you need that because there will be different things that are relevant to different people.
Speaker 5:So it means that everyone gets something really valuable out of it that way I think breaking into small groups and things, it gives you time to process the information. If you're just bombarded with a load of information, you don't remember it at all. So I think that's helpful and, and I think another, the whole day does help people build up trust. I remember trying to do a truncated version half a day and I think one of the feedback things was that by the end of the half day people hadn't felt quite safe enough to open up with their colleagues. They were a bit more cagey about what they were able to share. And I think also we can tackle difficult things like, well, what happens if somebody refuses to accept that they may be experiencing mental health difficulties, or how you deal with the dynamics in a whole team, because it can have impact on the whole team.
Speaker 5:Um, these are kind of things that are really helpful to discuss with other people. And also it's kind of helpful if you have we had someone from hr in joe's group it's always helpful to have someone that who can actually say what the policies are, because I do find that you might know in theory oh, I think there's a policy somewhere that deals with that, but I can't remember what it is. And in the heat of the moment you might forget to even look at it. So I think it's quite useful to have somebody there who says, yeah, we have got a policy here, or we do have this EAP or whatever, just to sort of confirm that people actually do know what's on offer. And, with Jonathan's voice, we will always have a conversation with the company to sort of get a sense of what's going to really work best for you, what's appropriate for you, what kind of help do you provide?
Speaker 5:It's not a sort of one size fits all kind of one. We always try and tailor it to the actual organization, um, so that it does actually resonate with you, it does feel appropriate to that that particular company. We, we, we can do that, which is which is great and I think, really really important, because be wasting everyone's time, if you know you went in and thought, well, that's all very well, but it it's, you know, it doesn't. It doesn't, um relate to our company, so.
Speaker 4:So I was going to give you the opportunity to do a sales pitch, penny, but that felt like it, except for the how do people organize it? How do they go about making the arrangements?
Speaker 5:yeah, well, um simple, just go on our website and send us an email, or I think there's a little form you could fill in. There's what we offer. There's something about the line manager training there. But probably your best way is just to send jonathan's voice um an email and all the information there on our website, which is um wwwjonathansvoiceorguk, I think, or just google it where where?
Speaker 4:make sure it's in the blurb, don't worry yeah, yeah, make sure.
Speaker 5:It's one of those things I get a bit of a blank about. Is it orguk? I think it is at the end. Um, yeah, and all the information is in there. Um, we are a charity and one of our sort of things is that we don't charge an actual specific sum for the training we do, but we do make you know, we do rely on donations. So we have a suggested donation, a suggested minimum donation, which would, in an ideal world, at least cover the costs of us putting on the training, especially the line manager training. So so, again, there's information about that on the website.
Speaker 4:Well, I think we're kind of there or thereabouts. But so, sally and Penny, you've been on before, so you know that me and Gwilym tried to end with some kind of tangential, closer question. I'm not sure we've done it with this many guests on the podcast, william, so I don't know how well this is going to work. So I've been, I've been trying to come up with a question that might have a very short answer, so people feel comfortable giving it. Okay, uh, so for kathy and joanne's benefit, I'm going to ask a question to Gwilym, who's still there on my screen, um, and then roll it around all of you and then Gwilym will come back to me.
Speaker 4:Gwilym, this time around I've not done any thinking in advance on what my answer might be. Okay, so, no, no, I have an advantage over no one, and I don't know whether this us down a wee bit and we couldn't all get in the room and we couldn't start recording. And then you realize that you're in this digital world where it's actually quite difficult to communicate with people, because it means sending an email and you don't know if they've read it. So, so, consciously, we all started this in a bit of a stressed state. Hopefully we're not in that stressed state now. Hopefully, we're not in that stressed state now. So I was wondering, willem, if you had to describe how you feel at the moment in the form of maybe an animal or a vegetable or some such thing, how, how do you? How do you feel? Can you speak? Are you too busy laughing mushroom? Do you need to explain that to us? I think I know why no, I think.
Speaker 1:Um well, life is a great experience. Mushrooms grow, so I feel like I'm as ever. I've grown through this. Um, at the same time, mushrooms give me a bit of tummy ache, so a little bit stressed too. So there you go. That's the first one that came up. Um okay analyze that.
Speaker 5:So penny, probably to you next, then well, I'm feeling a bit like my first image was a cat on a hot tin roof, and not a cat sleeping on a hot tin roof. Hopefully I will be that in about 10 minutes time, but the cats are jumping about a little bit. So that's a bit how I'm I'm feeling at the moment.
Speaker 4:Sally, how about you?
Speaker 7:well, if I'm going to say the first thing that came into my head, it was a teddy bear and then I started thinking willem planted that there earlier, though I was thinking why? Why am I thinking about teddy bear? Yeah, it might be subliminal from something that was said earlier. Um, and it may be that I want a cuddle, or it may be that I want to give somebody else a cuddle there's a sort of.
Speaker 7:There's a hug aspect. The dutch for teddy bear is knuffle bear, which means like hug bear, which is oh lovely. It's a nice word for hug knuffle. I'm probably not saying that right, apologies dutch speaking listeners joe, how about you?
Speaker 2:I think my mind went to the classic swan scenario of feeling trying to appear really calm and measured on top but feeling slightly frantic underneath and kathy, how about you?
Speaker 6:I was like a cat as well, penny but fluffy cat, and for some reason I was you know these big stretches you have and probably is wanting to get outside in the sunshine I think it turns out that was a great question that's okay, that's okay you weren't prepared.
Speaker 1:I'm gonna guess what you're gonna say and I'll write down hold up. I'm gonna hold up afterwards, but I'm don't say yeah, I'm gonna hold up to this group. So you know what I think you're gonna say you're doing your derren brown bit.
Speaker 4:It's just, it's impressive it's not gonna work.
Speaker 4:I'm just curious go on so so the one thing that came to my mind I don't know if it's how I'm feeling now, how I'm feeling on top of all of the other things I'm dealing with today um and this was something that was said to me by past president of seeper, roger burke um, not describing me at that time, but just using it as a, as a sort of way of describing a particular situation and he said he felt at one time like a bit of a post tortoise or post turtle, and then he showed me a picture of it and it's a post in the middle of nowhere with a tortoise sat on top of it and the kind of like the text accompanying it was something like you know, it shouldn't be there.
Speaker 4:You have no idea how it got there, you have no idea how it's getting down, and sometimes that's what it feels like to be kind of managing in situations, and I kind of feel a little bit like that at the moment, like how have I got here? Why am I here? How am I going to get away? So, um, yeah, look a little bit of a tortoise on a pole for the audience we always talk about tortoises on the podcast.
Speaker 4:It was a given, it was a given, but it genuinely wasn't the way of me squeezing that into the conversation. That was sort of like how I was feeling so how cool is that?
Speaker 4:oh, um, penny, joe kathy sally, thank you so much for um taking times out of your busy day to talk to us about kind of what is probably one of the most important conversations we could have at the moment. Um, and always, penny, thanks for all you've done. We know that you are off to to pastures, greener, newer, whatever they might be, so so good good luck in wherever you go next and um, and obviously we look forward to continuing to work with jonathan's voice on all things mental health and supporting our members by by working together. I've really enjoyed the podcast. I'm hoping that everyone who's listened has enjoyed it too and feel inclined to leave us a little message telling us that they've done so on the, on the podcasting platform of their choice, because that means that people will find us. I'm getting better at this kind of closing thing around that.
Speaker 4:Leave yourself and review things like yeah thanks, all that's a wrap, thanks thanks thank you very much, thanks for having us. Thank you everyone. We'll see you next time.