Two IPs In A Pod
Brilliant inventions, fresh product designs, iconic brand names and artistic creativity are not only the building blocks of successful business - they deliver a better world for us all. But these valuable forms of intellectual property must be protected in order to flourish. We are the Chartered Institute of Patent Attorneys - the UK's largest intellectual property organisation. Our hosts Lee Davies and Gwilym Roberts chat with entrepreneurs, creatives, patent attorneys and the occasional judge about how patents, trade marks, designs and copyright can improve our lives and solve problems for humanity.
Two IPs In A Pod
Inside the UK's Global IP Attaché Network
From helping Scotch Whisky manufacturers by protecting the name in Brazil to working on the IP aspects of the UK's Government's reset in relations with the European Union, the work of our IP Attachés is varied and complex. Lee is joined by his deputy Neil for this deep dive into the important world of global IP diplomacy and trade. Attachés responsible for Southeast Asia, China, Latin America, North America, Middle East, North Africa and India all dropped by to join the conversation. Since the podcasgt was recorded the US Copyright Office has issued the third and final part of its AI and Copyright Consultation report. Learn more about this vitally important IP network here.
We're here to support innovation, growth and the economy, and the way we need to do that is to make sure we are really aware of what's going on in all these ecosystems, so that businesses can prepare and be aware and be that step ahead.
Speaker 2:Lee Davis and Gwilym Roberts are the two IPs in a pod and you are listening to a podcast on intellectual property brought to you by the Chartered Institute of Patent Attorneys.
Speaker 4:Neil, great to see you. Mate. Here we are in the British Library, Cool place, isn't it? Particularly warm day. Why are we here.
Speaker 5:It's IP Attaché week and we're lucky enough to have the IPO's Attaché team with us today. Attaché week and we're lucky enough to have the IPO's Attaché team with us today.
Speaker 4:We've been really looking forward to it, haven't we? I think it's the first time that the UK IPO has been able to bring all of the Attachés together, come to the UK and meet with various stakeholder organisations and partner organisations, and we've been really looking forward to this, they do an amazing job.
Speaker 5:All the main markets of the world, from Latin America to Europe, to USA and Asia.
Speaker 4:So let's get them on, shall we? So first up, neil, we've got Sarah Sarah Roberts-Favell. Sarah, welcome to the podcast. Great to have you on. Been wanting to get you on the podcast for a long time because we've worked together in the past on stuff like CPTPP and those kinds of things and here you are.
Speaker 1:You've made it. It's been a long time coming, but, yeah, I'm really glad to be here.
Speaker 5:We need to explain what the CPTPP is quickly oh the Comprehensive and Progressive Agreement for Trans-Pacific Partnership.
Speaker 4:It rolls after the tongue when you've worked on it for as long as we have over the years.
Speaker 5:When you presented it to.
Speaker 6:Parliament honestly.
Speaker 4:But, yeah that's. That's not what we're here about, though, is it so? Sarah's got a role now in terms of promoting the UK IP attaché network and overseeing that area, so tell us a wee bit about it. What's it all about, sarah?
Speaker 1:Well, I've come to my dream job, to be honest, sort of bringing trade and IP and international work all together. So the International Attaché Network is where we work overseas with IPO staff, but based in UK embassies overseas in key strategic markets, and they've got a job which is fourfold. One is obviously to support the trade agreements and work on those as and when they come up. One is to drive UK exports, so to help people understanding when they go out to these markets, what do they need to know about their IP so they don't misstep. Because knowing before you go is is crucial. That way you can prepare, you put your.
Speaker 1:IP protection plan in place. We also have a third role, which is to bring foreign direct investment into the UK to support domestic growth as well as domestic growth external.
Speaker 1:We want to bring trade in the UK so that people come here and think, oh, I'm looking at a headquarters in the sort of European area or the UK is a strong place to go. So our job is to do that as well, and the other part is obviously to help change the political and IP ecosystems within the regions as well. So we have a really broad role.
Speaker 1:We're like IP diplomats is the way I sort of look at it in that we sit there and we work with businesses, but we're there to help local governments and industry to share good practice globally. So it's it's about as exciting an ip role as you can get. Really, I think it, although obviously patent attorneys are also a very exciting role very highly valuable and we would never want to diminish that no, but from a policy perspective I think it's about as exciting as you can get for ip what jurisdictions?
Speaker 4:where are we active?
Speaker 1:well, we got hot off the press in the last six months at a new post, so I'll start there and work sort of around. But we've got a new post which is mina, which we love our acronyms, don't we? So middle east and north africa. I thought that was a name. Sorry, no, exactly, and this is a problem. It's this love of acronyms on everything, isn't it?
Speaker 1:But our post is based in Dubai, which we think is a really great jumping off hub for not just the GCC but the North Africa region and the wider region as well, because it's such a dynamic region changing so rapidly, it's really crucial for us to understand the ip ecosystems and frameworks as they develop out there. So that's literally a new startup role. We moved it from riad to dubai. We've got a new attache, but in an older post, which is in india, so working in the india and asia area. We've then got singapore, obviously china and hong kong. We've then got the us. We've got latin america, so we spread ourselves bilaterally globally. Kong, we've then got the US. We've got Latin America, so we spread ourselves bilaterally globally. But we've also then obviously got an attache in Europe that's quite new, isn't it, sarah the European?
Speaker 1:it's, it's one of the newer posts, one of the newer posts, yeah, and then we've got the Geneva post as well, which is crucial with Lizzie and Vale, because you you can't think about IP and you can't think about global IP without looking at the multilateral institutions.
Speaker 1:So, they're crucial to looking at those wider treaties. I mean, I joined this job and everyone oh, you know the wheels of the multilateral space turn slowly and I've only been in the role 18 months and I've had two diplomatic conferences, so I don't know whether that's a good thing. I'm hoping the listeners think it is, but it's been a you know, big change there. So we've got to have have good representation, strong representation in Geneva as well.
Speaker 4:And what? What would you say? Your top challenges are what's on the radar for the attaché network?
Speaker 1:I think that the the challenge and the problem we always face is resource.
Speaker 1:It's there, is, and making sure we're really targeting where we want to be. There's so much we could do and it's making sure we're doing the right thing in the right place at the right time. And that's the biggest challenge we face, because we have a variety of things we can do, whether it's through patents, examiner exchanges, trademark examiner exchanges, judicial exchanges, sharing good through to moving away from the trading space to political influencing and other things. But there's so much we could do and it's just making sure that we're being really real civil service jargon here, but intentional around what we're looking at doing. Are we achieving what we want where we want and when we want?
Speaker 1:And the world changes so fast and IP is really changing fast. With some of the challenges that are coming through with the knock-ons from the dip cons, ai, ip finance and all of these priorities it's making sure that we're really at the forefront of where we want to be internationally is always going to be the challenge, but that's the fun of the job too and I don't know if the part of the job is this, but it seems to me that there's always this ongoing dialogue about harmonization, particularly in the patent world.
Speaker 4:Lots of conversations about harmonization. So do the does the attache network have a role to play at that in terms of understanding how the different ip ecosystems operate and where there might be synergies between them?
Speaker 1:exactly that finding where the synergies are, keeping their finger on the pulse as to what legislation's going on in the region. So, so, particularly some of our attaches they have a real political focus to really keep their fingers on the pulse as to what legislation might be coming through, what changes might be happening in other IP offices around the world. So we can see where the synergies are, but also where there might begin to be divergences for whatever reason, so we can really make sure that we're able to keep stakeholders informed. We're here to support growth and the economy and the way we need to do that is to make sure we are really aware of what's going on in all these ecosystems so that businesses can prepare and be aware and be that step ahead so this feels incredibly unfair.
Speaker 4:but we are on a bit of a whistle stop tour, aren't we? Because we are going to now go through all of the attachés and talk to them about their, their various perspectives from their particular jurisdictions. But let's finish with some high-level stuff from you. Sarah, I don't know if you're going to move on from this job or you're so passionate about it that it's your job for life now, but let's say, two or three years down the line you're thinking now's the time to move on. What's success look like?
Speaker 1:I mean, success for me is making sure that we've really got strong representation and continue to have strong representation at WIPO and the WTO and all of the work in those spaces, and that we've really managed to really hit the agendas there that we're looking to have. I mean, I always like to be able to look and know that the enforcement landscape has improved, because IP rights are really crucial. But what I would like to see is success would be that we've got fewer issues, fewer challenges around infringement and around enforcement.
Speaker 1:So that's really what I'd like to see, but it's. It's a job I love. It was one of those jobs it comes across, it comes you watch from afar and covet and and when it came up, the opportunity was just I. Whilst I love the trade agreements and the work we did on them, it's this role was, was the one that's always been there and it's the one you want to go for.
Speaker 4:So can I dangle a little carrot now to close, is that okay can?
Speaker 1:I think of a carrot, is that okay?
Speaker 4:I guess. So why not? Because you are here really to keep an eye on me, aren't you? That's your job. It's been lovely talking to you, but I know there's far more that we could explore and I'm wondering if you would do us the great honor of coming back and, yeah, and let's do sort of like the full duration of a podcast talking about you, the role, the work and everything you do, because I know it's so exciting I'd really love to definitely thank you thank you for your time, sarah.
Speaker 4:We're gonna we're gonna now talk some of the other attaches. So, okay, that was great to hear from sarah, wasn't it nil? Uh, always great to hear from sarah. Always great to hear from sarah, so't it, neil? Always great to hear from Sarah, always great to hear from Sarah. So we've got our first two attaches now to talk to. We've got Kayleigh and we've got Angelica. Kayleigh, do you want to introduce yourself?
Speaker 10:Is that okay? I would love to. I'm Kayleigh Nauman. I am in the North American Intellectual Property Attaché, based in Washington DC, and I cover the United States, Canada and Mexico.
Speaker 4:Fair to say, not a bad gig at the moment, is it?
Speaker 10:I mean there's a lot going on, you know, Not a dull moment right now.
Speaker 4:Yeah, we're going to hopefully pick through some of that. And, angelica, welcome to the podcast. Who are you?
Speaker 7:I'm Angelica, as I just said. So, yes, I'm Angelica. I'm Biotache, based in Sao Paulo, covering Latin America and the Caribbean, but Brazil is our main country, the country that we work with for the moment, and it's a pleasure to be here.
Speaker 4:So can I kind of ask the personal, professional stuff. First off, how did both of you come to be IP attachés?
Speaker 10:I actually am. Most people who work in IP obviously have a legal background. I actually do not. I am a social scientist by training, so I come of the way of working in policy. I previously worked for a Democratic member of the House of Representatives, actually during the first Trump administration, before this role. So I was hired as the UK was leaving the EU to help with our bilateral trade negotiations and was really hard because I know the landscape in DC very well I know how to hang out with all the folks there.
Speaker 10:So built this really robust network as soon as I got in, but really very much from that policy space. I had worked in city and state government before working in federal.
Speaker 4:Cool. And, angelica, what's your backstory?
Speaker 7:So I'm an IP lawyer and. I've done my master's in London at Queen Mary University of London. Then I went back to Brazil. I worked for some IP firms. Then I found out that working for a diplomatic mission was a possibility and I was like, wow, this is very exciting, so I applied and I've joined UKTI like 10 years ago, uk Trade and Investment and then I've joined the IPO and yeah, here I am.
Speaker 10:We both did school in the UK. I did my master's at Cambridge, so See, I'm not an IP.
Speaker 4:I don't have an IP background, I'm more of a social scientist. So yeah, share your pain.
Speaker 10:Yeah, I mean, I very much came from that like international relations viewpoint Angelica.
Speaker 4:Latin America, that's quite a big patch, isn't it?
Speaker 7:Well, yeah, it is Well. Brazil is already the size of the whole continent, so Latin America is even bigger.
Speaker 4:Where's your hotspots? Where are you focused on?
Speaker 7:Well, Brazil. So we have two main agendas working with the Brazilian government enforcement of IP and protection of IP. So we have achieved a lot of big successes, I would say, in the enforcement area, and a lot of big successes, I would say, in the enforcement area. And also we have just been able to help Scotch Risk Association to register Scotch as a geographical indication. That is worth £25 million for the next five years. So it's a very broad agenda. And of course, now we are having discussions about artificial intelligence, as I think it's the case with every country trying to understand how, yeah, where the balance of ip lies.
Speaker 4:So it's a big, interesting agenda in the latin america and, um, maybe an unfair question in terms of what more for the ipo than for you, but how well supported are you, how well resourced are you in the roles that you do?
Speaker 10:I think we're pretty well resourced I mean it's. We have small teams, I think most attaches. You have your sort of main desk officer and then two support officers that we feed into. Angelica and I have the same desk officer and we have a really great relationship with the team. You know, I'm sure that everyone in government was like we could use six more people. And like Angelica, now has an analyst in Brazil. I am so envious, it's very expensive to have an analyst in DC. So we're hanging on at the moment.
Speaker 10:But if I could have someone just to watch all the hearings, for me that are happening on the Hill. That would be great.
Speaker 7:And the thing is we can always use colleagues, like colleagues from GBT, for an office to help us. So I'm based in Brazil and I take care of the whole Latin American and Caribbean region. So if I need something in Argentina, for example, I can always use the help of colleagues in host.
Speaker 10:If it's like a new policy area development we can call the policy folks at IPO and they're always happy to help on the phone. So yeah, I think we're pretty robust in resource for all things considered so what's big on the radar?
Speaker 4:you've mentioned ai. We've talked a little bit about trade. Is there anything else that you think is coming up over the over the horizon? That might be the next biggie for you.
Speaker 10:I mean ai is taking up a lot of my bandwidth um, you know the the us has been really, really invested in what an ai governance policy looks like.
Speaker 10:Um, you know trump's executive order day one revoked a number of Biden's executive orders and that included the AI executive order. We're waiting to see if that includes rehashing or reviewing the US Patent and Trademark Office's AI guidance that they've issued, because it was issued under that executive order. Obviously we work with that office, with the US Patent and Trademark Office, in depth at the working level on these issues. Already the Copyright Office in the US had issued, or has wrapped up, a consultation on AI and copyright, much like we recently did. I can't comment on ours, but the US Copyright Office split their report into three. The third chunk of that report is anticipated this year and I think that gives us a really good idea direction to travel in the us and also opens up more opportunities for us to have those more robust working level conversations than we have, and then I'm sure time will tell what else is going to come up here you know like three years ago I spoke on a couple conference panels about the metaverse, so there will be something new here soon.
Speaker 10:I'm going the metaverse, yeah so for us.
Speaker 7:Well, the enforcement agenda is a priority for um, for the ipo in brazil and the rest of latin america, but we also have call 30 this year in brazil in belen, the amazon region, and we have a very exciting program together with the foreign Office which is building capacity with local communities in the Amazon region so they learn how to protect trademarks, and this is inside Brazil's intellectual property strategy. So we've partnered with MFA, Itamaraty, the Brazilian Foreign Office and also the Brazilian Patent Office, the Ministry of Industry and Commerce in Brazil. So we are really looking forward to continue the project and maybe luckily deliver something in time for COP.
Speaker 4:Perfect. I'm not suggesting for one moment that you're just about to disappear over the horizon, but let's take you two or three years into the future, where maybe you're thinking the time might be right to look to something else. For each of you, what's legacy? What would you say? Yay, I did that.
Speaker 7:Well, I think in my case I'm really proud of is this partnerships we have with Brazilian enforcers, with police, the Ministry of Justice and the public attorney's office. So the techniques they've learned from us and from PIPCO, the techniques they've learned from us and from PIPCO, mainly to fight IP crimes. They use to fight other sorts of crimes, so pedophilia and bank fraud and prevent attacks to schools. So it's amazing to see the size and the dimension of the impact of the work we do yeah, so that's exporting UK IP expertise, exactly, and it's also fighting on behalf of IP, fighting IP crimes, but also fighting other sorts of horrible crimes as well.
Speaker 7:So it's and to see those people there. Also, you've mentioned passion. Those people are really passionate about what they do. They really have a sense of justice and want to make the world a better place. So it's great to be in the middle of that and to enable this to happen. That's very cool.
Speaker 10:I'm trying to think of like one shining moment, because there's a lot of what I do. When you're successful in policy, you often know that you're successful because no one can point out that you did something.
Speaker 4:Fair point.
Speaker 10:So it can be a little hard for me to identify something. Point out that you did something Fair point. So it can be a little hard for me to identify something, but there's been some opportunities to engage in ways that are very specific to where I am and being in DC. And one thing is that at the end of 2023, former registrar of copyrights who is not the motion picture association Karen Temple, joined a panel in front of the house subcommittee. It's got a very long name, but it includes intellectual property. House subcommittee. It's got a very long name, but it includes intellectual property. It's like it's the courts, the internet, now artificial intelligence is part of the name and intellectual property, but I don't think in that order, but that is to say she spoke in front of the house subcommittee on ip about website blocking and the harm of piracy from websites in third countries.
Speaker 10:You know about how those websites are often linked to all sorts of other illicit activities it's very often criminal organizations etc. And just talking about the need for a similar framework in the US, because there's not a website blocking framework in the US. I have very good relationships with the folks who work on the subcommittee and, following the hearing, immediately sent them an email and said hey, we have a very robust regime here. We would love to share our expertise and talk to you about it, and so we've had a number of working level conversations. We had Representative Daryl Issa from California, who's the lead Republican on the subcommittee, was out here with Ben Kline, a Democrat from I forget which state, and a couple of their staff. Last summer we talked to them in depth about our regime.
Speaker 10:I've participated in a roundtable hosted by Representative Issa on this topic and it's hard to say if it will really come to fruition. He's definitely going to write a bill. He's definitely going to introduce a bill. It's going to be a lot of work to get other members of Congress on board, but to be able to be part of that process in such a dynamic way no longer being a staffer on the Hill because I used to write bills on the Hill, but in a sort of different way is certainly very cool and something that has been very exciting, and we similarly for the CASE Act, which created the Copyright Small Claims Board and the Copyright Office in the US Before that bill passed as an amendment to appropriations legislation.
Speaker 10:Hakeem Jeffries, who's now the Democratic leader in the House, introduced that bill and we spoke to his office several times and connected them with judges and were able to give them feedback on what you know our core system here looks like, and that's been very cool to be able to participate in that.
Speaker 4:Oh, thank you both so much for sharing your time. Thank you very much so it's really good, wasn't it, to hear from um, from kaylee and angelica.
Speaker 5:Range of skills these people have is is mind-boggling.
Speaker 4:Such exciting area to work as well as it seems, and the pat and the passion certainly seems to be there. So we've got Samuel and Desmond with us now. Welcome to the podcast. Hi guys, thanks for having us Really good to have you here. Sorry, we're rushing you through at the moment Going around the world in half an hour.
Speaker 5:Yeah, yeah yeah.
Speaker 11:So can you introduce yourself? Okay, so I'm Samuel Stone, so I'm our attache that is based out in China. So I'm based in Beijing. I actually have a small team out there. So IPO has got myself, and then we've got two more colleagues that work with me in Beijing and we've also got someone based in Shanghai. We've got someone in Shanghai because that's where a lot of the UK companies have their headquarters. So in that way it's good for the kind of business relationship side.
Speaker 4:Samuel, just very briefly what brought you into the Attaché network?
Speaker 11:Yes, I've been working on China-related policy for a while, so actually I've been in the civil service for quite a while and the role before this one I was in DBT, dit at the time, doing China trade policy. So that was much broader. It kind of wrapped up IP as well as a narrow part of it, but it was more business, environment issues, market access issues and trade dialogue.
Speaker 4:Fab. Thank you. So, Desmond, same question for you how did you get to where you are?
Speaker 8:Certainly. Thank you very much. So I'm Desmond, I'm the attaché for Southeast Asia, I'm based in Singapore and I'll cover IP for the whole region. So what we do is that we'll cover the government, government relationships as well as the government to business support. So all our UK business friends that wants to come to the region are already in the region. We'll have them on that. We also support and do IP development work under FCDO. We also have a very small team in the region. I think I have two colleagues in Indonesia, one colleague colleague in Singapore, one in Hanoi and we're hiring one more in Malaysia as well. Okay, yep.
Speaker 4:So, yeah, it's a little bit of a team around you then, so you're not just working on your own.
Speaker 8:True, yes, but I think we cover about 10 to 11 countries which is pretty a lot as well. So that's what our regional travel coverage.
Speaker 4:So what's big on each of your radars, sam?
Speaker 11:Let's start with you. What's number one priority in China? Number one priority in China. So I would say that the system in China, the IP system, has been developing pretty rapidly over the years. So it's changing quite quickly and most of that has been positive change. So definitely we've seen the kind of you know in terms of registering rights and protecting rights. Things have got better across a number of areas, but then there are still that's not to say there's still some systemic challenges that remain for UK rights owners.
Speaker 11:So I would say, for example, counterfeiting yeah, we do estimate that between about 70 to 80 percent of the world's counterfeits are originating from china. I mean the, the scale of china and the manufacturing capacity there is obviously yeah, so so that's, that's a real issue. Other issues include fighting digital piracy.
Speaker 11:Bad faith trademarks is something that comes up a lot to me and my team yeah so that's where someone you know, an actor, is preemptively registering a, a trademark, and then, with sort of the malicious intent that they want to squat the trademark and maybe you know, extort it back when that brand owner is coming into the market so that's always been a steadily been quite a big issue for us, and I would just say that it's moving now more my priority, I suppose towards enforcement as well, now that that kind of legal framework is actually, you know, has been improving over years, the actually following up on the, the enforcement of IP and China being such a big place, the kind of the difference in enforcement outcomes between places that's sort of coming becoming more of a priority.
Speaker 5:And is that helping uk business to enforce their rights in china or using uk influence to improve enforcement across the country more generally?
Speaker 11:yeah. So I would say it's a mix because it's very similar to desmond. We kind of have that government to government role and then the business support side. I would usually divide it in those two and so if it's the business support, then it might be that we are trying to provide what support we can in specific cases. That might just be providing information or talking through some options when a company has an enforcement issue or another issue, or maybe we can help to do some government facilitation or facilitation between platforms and rights owners. But it's also on the government to government side. So that's where we do a lot of sharing of best practice. So you know the UK's it has a good reputation for you know our IP system and capabilities in many areas, and so we will do that sort of best practice sharing to try and help bring up standards across the board.
Speaker 4:And Desmond, you're working across multiple jurisdictions. How does that play out for you? What would be your priorities in that?
Speaker 8:Yeah, so I think Southeastia is a very exciting region because it has about 680 million people. 30 percent are in the middle income. It's projected 50 percent to be middle income by about 2030. And like what? And if southeast asia is an economy, it is the fifth largest.
Speaker 8:Well, so, and as what sam has mentioned, a lot of the counterfeits actually came from from china, but it actually flows through southeast asia as well, so we are part of the node and therefore, for us, we think enforcement is one of our top priorities and because how we think about it is that you have IP protection. Without enforcement, it's like buying a safe and leaving the door open. So we really think enforcement gives meaning to IP protection in the region especially, and we want to help our UK businesses whenever they come in to navigate the region the 10 countries, so you have to navigate 10 sets of enforcement regimes right, that can be really complicated. So we want to do the help them on that and not just that. Increasingly, we see e-commerce is really important because most consumers now buy products online. That's why, in Southeast Asia, we also focus on enforcement and in the e-commerce space.
Speaker 4:So our conversation with Kayleigh I mean it's a shame, isn't it, because you don't get to hear the conversations that went before but the conversation with Kayleigh, and perhaps also to a degree with Angelica, was about trade and the role of the attache network in fostering those trade relationships. Do you get involved in those conversations?
Speaker 8:Yes, we do in some part, because part of our work is also on policy as well.
Speaker 8:But of course we focus a lot on business support and government relationships. For example, in Southeast Asia there's an RSAT and then there's also the CPTPP, which you can just join, and amongst all these we think it's a very interesting way of looking at IP, because RSAT looks into harmonizing all the IP regimes in Southeast Asia. Cptpp ups the level. It improves IP enforcement, ip protection provisions. So we see this interplay actually provides a lot of opportunities for our UK businesses. Rsat makes the IP system more common so that means when businesses come out you don't have to navigate so many IP protection regimes. Cptpp makes enforcement easier in a way because it ups the quality of IP protection. So when UK businesses come up they can focus a lot more about IP commercialization and taking the best of your IP assets. Of course I'm making it sound very simple here.
Speaker 8:In front of the region there will still be counterfeits, there will still be piracy, and that's where here we are as the IP Attaché Network to support all UK businesses on all their enforcement priorities and needs.
Speaker 5:UK businesses on all their enforcement priorities and needs. So the hope with CPTPP wasn't it was that other partners to the CPTPP would bring their enforcement quality and levels up to the UK. Yes, so in a way it's like leveling up together and that's what we're seeing.
Speaker 8:I think it's going to be a journey because currently, right now in Southeast Asia, there are 11 countries, if you include Timor-Leste, and I think four are in CPTPP already Singapore, vietnam, brunei and Malaysia. Singapore, I think, is a unique country where the IP regime is very strong, the rule of law is very strong and IP enforcement is also very strong, and I think that CPTPP provides opportunity for all the other countries to level up together and, with UK coming in and as UK is also a dialogue partner to ASEAN, and this brings a lot of opportunity for us to work together for shared prosperity and, I think, as long as when businesses, be it UK and ASEAN, have a common vested interest, that makes trade a lot easier and we are all aligned in our goals Fantastic.
Speaker 4:Similar in China, Samuel, in terms of the trade relationship.
Speaker 11:In terms of the trade relationship, In terms of the trade relationship, our involvement, I would say that so we do work very closely with our colleagues from the Department for Business and Trade.
Speaker 11:Yeah, so we've got a strong network in China and they have the you know, they have the remit to help support exports from the UK to other countries, including China, and also for attracting that inward investment.
Speaker 11:Now, while I don't exactly have that same goal as they do, actually, what you find really is that we work very close together because these exporters as the government is trying to give support to help UK exporters grow and reach markets abroad, well, of course, they need to have that IP knowledge and understanding along the way. So we will sort of feed into that process to make sure that exporters have got that IP knowledge before they go. I would say we also kind of touch on it in a way, because, working on these IP issues together with China and exchanging best practice and helping to support UK rights owners in China, you touch on issues of the business environment in China and also perhaps some of the IP issues could be seen as market access issues. So in a way, you're helping to try and create a kind of conducive business environment, remove any trade barriers that might still exist, so that you can facilitate more trade.
Speaker 4:Yeah, it makes sense. Listeners don't know, but we're getting wave jets through the window to move on. Your time is up, so we just get a little wave, but you're not going to get away without the question that I've asked your colleagues little wave, um. But you're not going to get away without the question that I've asked your colleagues, and that's you're not going to run away from this job. You're clearly passionate about it, but at some point in the future you might move on. When you move on, what? What does success look like?
Speaker 11:what will you look back and say, yeah, I did that um, success look like, I mean, it's the, it's the helping businesses and then seeing these cases go through and be successful is a really good part of the job. Yeah, building the relationships as well. So we've both talked about that kind of priority and enforcement and we've actually been trying to build our relationships with some of the enforcement agencies in China, actually been trying to build our relationships with some of the enforcement agencies in China. So being able to look back and actually say you know that's taken a step forward during our time there, you know, to best support businesses, I think I would take that, yeah, it feels good, doesn't it?
Speaker 8:Yeah, I think for me, I guess it's a journey, I think it's not. It's a destination, not a bus stop.
Speaker 8:Looking back, it'll be really good to see how UK is a trusted partner to Southeast Asia, especially in air enforcement, because for us, UK we're really, really strong in IP enforcement and, look, I just hope that as this thing goes on, the relationship just gets better and better and better, stronger and stronger and stronger. We'll be really happy to hear that. I think right now, uk we have a three-year lead on e-commerce enforcement and I'm sure that in the future, people will build on this and make it even better.
Speaker 4:Thank you both so much for sharing your time with us. Thank you so much for this opportunity. Thanks for having us.
Speaker 4:It's been quite good afternoon, hasn't it? We've been hearing all these great stories about the IP Attaché Network, and now we get to do some more. So we've got Lizzie and Aidan with us. It'd be IP Attaché Network, and now we get to do some more. So we've got Lizzie and Aidan with us. Be great if you could introduce yourselves, because obviously you know more about you than we do, so Lizzie should we start with you.
Speaker 12:Who are you Sure? Thank you, so I'm Lizzie Wilson. I'm the IP Attaché that's based in Geneva. I work with the multilateral institutions and all the UN organisations out there. So wherever IP comes up, I try to be try to be there. Predominantly that's with the world intellectual property organization, ypo, um, and also with the wto, world trade organization, but also done a bit of uh stuff with the who as well, um. But yeah, as I say, wherever ip strikes up in in the un institutions, I try and get my nose in there and and.
Speaker 4:What brought you into this world? What attracted you?
Speaker 12:So I have been a civil servant for quite a few years and I did some work previously at the IPO, where I was the desk officer that was working with the ASEAN region, and so I had a little bit of knowledge there about the IP world and the IPO, and when this role came up in Geneva I applied for it and here I am.
Speaker 6:So it's great to have you and Aidan, how about you? Well, thanks for having me. I'm Aidan Sampson. I'm the IPO's Europe attaché. I'm based in Brussels and I cover both the EU as well as the wider Europe region, our bilateral relations with all European countries. I think we stretch as far as to russia and turkey. Yeah, but I'd say probably. I've been giving different figures to all different stakeholders. I've been meeting sometimes I say 75 percent eu, someone's 80 percent eu.
Speaker 4:I'm going to say to you, 80 of my job is eu there was a test at the end of the week, so yeah, so, so yeah, my main focus is the eu, but yeah, we cover the whole of Europe as well, fab.
Speaker 6:And how about you? What? Brought you into this world. So well, ip is fairly new to me. I started this job two and a half years ago. My background is EU and European affairs international relations, so I think I studied a little bit of IP law in university but it was never really something that occurred to me to go into and kind of stumbled across this job and I really enjoy it. Yeah, it's been quite a whirlwind.
Speaker 12:There's a lot to learn, it's really big, but yeah it's a diverse job, isn't it? Diverse role, and there's always new things to pick up, and you get to learn, and I think all of us are incredibly grateful to our IPO colleagues, who have such incredible knowledge and skills that they share with us as the attaches that we then take out to the markets and that must be a great thing about the way the team's grown over the years is you've got that shared experience and learning and I think also what we and I really feel like it's coming out this week when we're all together here in london, is that there's lots of similarities between our markets, but also lots of differences.
Speaker 12:And we can draw out themes from all of us and what we all see in our different markets and bring those together and share some of that knowledge and learning which is invaluable.
Speaker 4:Can I ask either a geeky pattern question is that okay? I mean, it's not about good luck.
Speaker 6:Yeah, sorry, I'm not an expert.
Speaker 4:I apologize in advance, okay, so a geeky question from a patent perspective, let me say it that way instead so, but, but also sort of more broadly. So we've got the two offices I guess in in europe, that's the epo, yeah uh, european patent convention, obviously larger than the eu. 38-ish grows over time, doesn't it? Member states. And then you've got the EU IPO and its footprint as an EU organ, and then you've got now for us, the new Unified Patent Court. How do you draw all of those various strands together, or do you?
Speaker 6:not need to. Well, unfortunately, there are a lot more strands than that that I have to deal with oh, go on, tell, do. Oh god, I mean, we work also with the commission, the parliament of course and all the various um member state governments.
Speaker 6:Yeah, the epo is obviously one of our most um important stakeholders. We are a member of uh, of of the epo um, so and we are building our relationship with the uh, with the, with the european union. We've been resetting our relationship and we try to work closely with the European Union. We've been resetting our relationship and we try to work closely with the EU. They're very different organs. So the EU IPO currently does not do anything on patents. It is focused on trademarks and designs.
Speaker 4:It got dangerously close recently with SPC.
Speaker 6:Yeah, so there is an eu proposal on uh creating a competent center within the eu. I think would look at um seps in particular as well. Yeah, but uh, you know tbc, where all that lands. But in any case, you know these are all our important stakeholders. You know europe's our closest partners and yeah, we try to cooperate with them all.
Speaker 4:Yeah, it's quite a juggling act, isn't it? Yeah, yours, lizzie. Very different gig waipo is um always seems to me to be quite a difficult conundrum to understand and in terms of its um conferences and and how it gets to policy forming and decision making. Can you cast some light on on that?
Speaker 12:I can try. It's a really interesting space. So WIPO, as the UN's technical agency looking after IP, it's got quite a number of roles. Really, I think it's a policy space for shaping global IP rules and standards. Space for shaping global IP rules and standards. It's a convener for people to come together, for member states to come together, but also broader stakeholders too. It also provides capacity building, technical assistance to member states, which I think is particularly valuable for developing countries, for the global south. So it has quite a number of roles and it is a.
Speaker 12:It can be difficult because there are 193 member states yes um, and they will come at this from slightly different perspectives, slightly different priorities. You have countries, like the uk, who have very developed and deep historical IP structures and systems, and you have countries which don't have such developed IP systems.
Speaker 12:So it's a balancing act, it is quite a tough balancing act, but then you also get lots of different experiences and something that I think is really valuable that WIPO can do is bring so many different member states together in one space and you do see a lot of experience sharing and best practice sharing. Actually, that exchange of knowledge is really really important and particularly, I think the UK and and what the UK has achieved and done through the IPO is really so highly regarded by a lot of developing countries and that's fantastic to see.
Speaker 4:Your job seems, I would say, very different, but there's a distinction, isn't there? In terms of the fact that you're not looking at a geographical jurisdiction, you're looking more at international policy. Is that fair?
Speaker 12:Yeah, that's absolutely right. I don't see so much of the or don't do so much of the business support side of things. It's very much the multilateral space. Looking at some of the international treaties, so um you may know the the two recent wipo uh treaties one one on genetic resources, one on design law. So that's quite a different role negotiating those to providing that business support. But hopefully those treaties are there now to help and support the business community.
Speaker 4:Yeah, yes, absolutely of course. And, aidanidan, do you get yourself involved in trade much? Is that something that you find yourself?
Speaker 6:well, we have the trade and cooperation agreement with the European Union, which I'd say it's quite a big part of my role is to make sure we are implementing that fully and sort of working out any post-Brexit issues that we may have. So on that sense, yes, yes on trade, and of course we work with other partners both in Europe and around the world in trying to get new free trade agreements as well. So a couple of questions for me.
Speaker 4:Neil may have something else he wants to ask, but I'll do my couple of closes, if that's okay. First of all, each of you biggest thing on your radar at the moment what's coming over the horizon that you're um, that keeps you awake at night?
Speaker 12:so I think for me in geneva in the near future, we've got the ypo general assembly coming up, which is its annual flagship event really, where you get all of the different bodies and assemblies. They meet, all the member states come together. We'll have our ceo, adam williams, coming out for that and he gets to meet heads of offices from all the other member states.
Speaker 12:So that's quite a big flagship event and we'll be setting the programme budget for the next biennium for WIPO, so that's really important as a member state to make sure that we see that correctly implemented. So I think that will be a fairly big thing coming up. And then really I think, considering the current geopolitical dynamics that we're seeing, it's about the UK being a constructive partner for the multilateral system and really making sure that we can help it keep going and keep working, particularly for the businesses, for theEs, for the, for that community and for our IP stakeholders. I think, making sure that it's fit for purpose and works, and that's that's really critical.
Speaker 4:That's probably enough to have on your plate at the moment, isn't it? Yeah? Yeah just a small job. There's not much happening in Europe at the moment.
Speaker 6:Aidan, one of the biggest things that is happening right now for us is is the reset our UK-EU relationship.
Speaker 4:Yeah, of course.
Speaker 6:We have a summit coming up soon between our Prime Minister and the President of the European Commission, and we are aiming to further develop our relationship and to find new means for British businesses to work in Europe and generally to improve prosperity for UK business. And the research covers everything, and so we are hopeful that we'll also be boosting our IP relationship with the EU and Europe as a whole. That sounds really positive.
Speaker 4:I think so. Final question from me what's your individual legacies? What will you look back and say, yeah, I did, have you done. You might not have got there yet, but what might you want your legacy to be? Yeah, that's a tough one, isn't it? That's a good question.
Speaker 6:it sounds like it might be a job offer as well. I'm not. I'm not sure. Um, you know about individual things, but I would say that we've we've done quite a few good campaigns in Europe, which I'm really proud of, I think, and it's been, I mean, it's been great working with the IPO on this. I work closely with the IPO Europe team, who are all great and they sort of they give me the freedom to you know, devise, you know and implement my own campaigns on various issues, and I think it's yeah. If I look back on this job later on in life, I will say I did that, I did this and yeah, I'd be quite pleased with that Cool.
Speaker 12:Yeah, and I think I will be really pleased. I am really pleased to be able to look back even now and say I have recently been part of two new multilateral treaties at WIPO. I've also been involved in the negotiations for the WHO pandemic accord. So that's three multilateral agreements within a year, which for the multilateral system, is actually quite impressive.
Speaker 6:Yeah, it sounds it.
Speaker 12:It's been some hard raids and not all the outcomes are perfect, but I think it's a that's a pretty good place to be oh, thank you both so much for sharing your time with us and, um yeah, enjoy the rest of attache week it's thank you very much. It's a really fun program. Thank you for having us.
Speaker 4:Thank you so now we're nearly nearly at the end, but we've saved the best, or last, I think, because we we get to do that little bit of conversation in between recordings and this. This feels like it's gonna be quite a bubbly one, do you think? These are our newest attaches yeah, so what we'd like you to do is just to introduce yourselves. So, zaneh, should we start with you? So tell us who you are and what you do.
Speaker 2:I'm an IP lawyer, ip slash business. I have both backgrounds, coming from corporate world, oil sector, oil and gas sector in Iran.
Speaker 2:Okay, originally coming from the region that I belong to and working with different institutions, companies, different sectors in Iran, and eventually left the country because of the sanctions. I always wanted to have an international career, which wasn't possible due to the country situation, and then I was working in Dubai, turkey. I did a few projects in Southeast Asia and then I was like, okay, I cannot live on the suitcase anymore, I have to move to Switzerland and I really wanted to have an opportunity in international domain, in IP. So I started studying, continuing my studies in Switzerland and then eventually I started working with Swiss IP Institute, wipo.
Speaker 2:Different sectors, different divisions different projects in Southeast Asia, in Africa, working with regional bureaus, with technical divisions, with WIPO Academy, a lot. So I was on the policy side a bit of advice to businesses, coaching businesses and also training and awareness raising. And also on the side I was working with other UN agencies like International Trade Center and the IP part of the National Export Strategy for Iran and branding of the agricultural products. And then I did another project for EUIPO it was during pandemic on IP and gender and how intellectual property system can contribute to women business competitiveness, again in Southeast Asia. And then, yeah, and then I continued again with WIPO different divisions. I did also a lot of gender work on the side for UN women and then eventually I was super lucky and happy to find a position with IPO because I was in contact with the Geneva IP attaches. So it led me to the region that I'm originally coming from. So now I'm based in Dubai. It's six months I'm in the post and I'm enjoying each and every minute.
Speaker 4:It sounds like it. It is amazing.
Speaker 2:Gorgeous role, a lot of opportunities, fantastic.
Speaker 4:And Divya, what's your story?
Speaker 9:So my tryst with intellectual property actually began when I think I was in middle school and I happened to come across Michael Jackson's video and I saw the anti-gravity boots. I was intrigued.
Speaker 4:The patented anti-gravity boots.
Speaker 9:Yes, I was intrigued and then, you know, at that time internet was pretty slow, but it was still pretty useful. So I happened to come across. While I didn't understand at that time what patent really was, but I think it got the wheels moving and I started to focus on it a lot and then I realized how we are surrounded by IP on in everyday life especially, I mean you you wake up, you put the toothpaste on your toothbrush, you see the trademark there, right there on the toothpaste.
Speaker 9:So, similarly, you know, as you walk around, you open the refrigerator, the coke, can you see the logo again, the design, the trade secret, the recipe, everything. So I think that's how my twist with intellectual property started and I've always been quite the opinionated lady. So my parents suggested that you know you should put that to good use why not become a lawyer? So I ended up pursuing law and during that time I was waiting to hear back from the legal service authority at Delhi for an internship in my first year. But I was put on wait list and was supposed to start the next month. But then I had this one month and it was waste.
Speaker 9:And you know, as students you're supposed to have something on your CV and there's a lot of peer pressure yeah so my dad spoke to a couple of people in his network and I ended up interning at a at an IP law firm in my first year and that's where I fell in love. So that's how my relationship with IP started and I knew right then and there that IP is what I wanted to do later on as well. But I had a lot of advice streaming in from everybody else telling me that maybe you should dibble, dabble into other fields before you decide something, because you're still too quite early and we had not even studied that subject subject. It's a five-year course, so. But the heart what's wants what it wants, right. So I knew ip is what I wanted to do. Then I did a master's in ip.
Speaker 9:Eventually I started working for an ip law firm. Then I worked for the indian government for four years under their national ipr policy scheme, did a lot of good work, like inculcating IP into the school children's curriculum, introducing them to IP at a very nascent stage. That was very interesting work. I was part of that. And then I wanted to try in-house. So I worked for an Australian media house, helped them sort out their IP portfolio for their stock market advisory and tech business.
Speaker 9:And then, uh, before this role, I I was working for, and uh for, a wind technology company as their ip council. So quite the diverse profile. I've had the government, I've had the private, I've had the corporate.
Speaker 4:So you also now have the accolade of being the first person to ever squeeze michael jackson into one of our podcasts. So well done, thank you so similar questions. So we've asked your colleagues recognizing you're relatively new to role what's big on each of your radars at the moment? What's what's your big priority in the areas that you work?
Speaker 2:from my side, of course, because I'm based in Dubai, we are having a great relationship with uh UAS stakeholderEE governments, mainly working with the IP sector of Ministry of Economy. So we're developing our collaboration on different IP aspects on the protection side and the building, the infrastructure as well as enforcement, and on the other side, we also have MOU and official collaboration with Saudi Intellectual Property Authority. So we work closely on different IP issues, again based on the Saudi government priorities as well as UK priorities, and also, on the other side, working closely with the businesses and also expanding our relationship with the businesses in the region so that we can provide better protection to UK businesses in the region. So for now we are focusing UAE and Saudi, but there are a lot of issues coming up. Qatar is in the radar. Egypt is there.
Speaker 2:We had a very recent query in Iraq which we didn't even come like. It's coming through. So yeah, so basically for now, uae and Saudi, but we are eventually expanding to the region on the policy side, working with the government and also on the business side, working closely with the businesses, and we have also a very good relationship with the legal community. They're really helping and supporting us behind the scene for better engagement with the authorities and relevant stakeholders. So, yeah, for that, like it's been six months I've been in the post, so I think by now we have done a lot of great things and for sure we'll add more countries and more, you know, like our projects.
Speaker 4:So yeah, and what's the score in india?
Speaker 9:so I? I mean it'll be two months for me. On 2nd May I'll be two months old here. Just two months, yeah. But India and UK share a very deep relationship. There's a lot of vibrancy when it comes to the different industries where India's pretty active and UK businesses are very open to investing as well as building their IP portfolios in those industries. So because of that shared relationship and plus the fantastic relationship that the IPO UK as well as the IPO India has that's that sort of you know it's been easy for me to just blend in and just pick up where my predecessors are left off. So it's been pretty smooth. And as of now, the focus is, uh, enforcement and sensitization of judiciary and see if there are certain best practices that the indian judiciary can seek from the uk judiciary and vice versa. So those are a couple of things, and then we also have a lot of interest in ai, of course, you know the world is talking about it. Yeah, exactly yeah.
Speaker 9:So uh, we're still trying to figure out where India is at vis-a-vis uh IP, because, uh, we don't have AI defined when it comes to, like, copyrighted works and it's more human centric. If it's human originated work, then it's, you know, a copyright, but uh, in of ai, if we're still trying to figure out what is going to happen in the cup in the next couple of months but a lot of buzz of activity in that area then obviously in you know, when I say india, there's a lot of technology and a lot of tech related works in the make. So I think what will be interesting to see is, uh, how uk businesses can actually invest in the technology sector, not just in uh relation to ip or ai, but also trying to understand the deep fake and what's all, what's happening there, everything that's, you know, like in the bylines of ai.
Speaker 4:So that's about that yeah, so trade would be the first one, because you're both working in areas where the UK is currently looking to do some interesting stuff around trade Obviously a trade agreement with India and the Gulf cooperation countries in terms of your area. So do you expect to get yourselves involved in trade much?
Speaker 2:From my side. When I joined IPO, the IP chapter of the FDA that is under negotiation with GCC countries was closed already, oh wow. So I didn't have the chance to attend negotiations and discussions. But I was lucky. When I just joined I attended a DeepCon, a white diplomatic conference and design law treaty, and I went to Riyadh, which was really fun. My second week in Riyadh. It was really interesting. I mean seeing the discussions out of WIPO, because I was always attending WIPO committees and being in WIPO and then experiencing WIPO discussions in Riyadh in the region that I started to work. It was really interesting.
Speaker 2:But on the trade side, like nothing at the moment. But of course, because the FDA is under a rudder and apparently UK and UAE they're also UAE wanted a separate one. So we'll see and I'm hoping that I've been super optimistic here that with this FDA the other opportunities would come up soon as well. Yeah, so on the government side, no trade at this stage. But of course, as I mentioned, we are working with the businesses so that we can reflect the businesses' concerns to the government and, as Divya mentioned, we are working on the same issues on the enforcement side, on the AI and also IP finance. Ip finance is a big topic for us. We would like to work and we're just, you know, evaluating the opportunities and the government is both ua and saudi are interested to work on this, so yeah, ip finance.
Speaker 2:Yeah, ip backed finance yeah so lending on the basis of ip, yes, okay, yeah and, interestingly, some uae banks have started to have some because we've got some interesting products in the uk that, yeah, I guess you're talking to colleagues about yeah, I mean, actually it's my, my favorite like ip topic.
Speaker 2:Now I love it, right, I don't like ai, I have to. You can remove this part, but like ip finance is like, because I've been coaching a lot of smes and small and medium-sized businesses, they always have the financial issue, especially the region that I'm working with. So I think this is a topic that would perfectly work with like well, with, uh, you know, like with the business interests in the region okay, so I think india is also in the same position because we also have the FTA with the UK.
Speaker 9:In fact, our minister, Mr Piyush Goyal, is already in London, so that's happening. So I'm hoping that soon we'll be able to see and then work on the IP bit. But it was closed just before I joined, just like Sanas.
Speaker 4:So yeah, yeah. So thank you both so much for joining us. I will say, because you're relatively new to role, maybe you'd come back and have an extended conversation with us we don't have to be in the same country. We can do this remotely, and we can.
Speaker 12:I would love to come back to London just for a podcast but for sure yeah, but for sure.
Speaker 5:Yeah, because I but for sure yeah.
Speaker 9:But for sure, yeah, because I think my dog has been part of several discussions loudly and I think he knows more about Section 3D, pat and Sat than the other people. So yeah, that's a well-educated dog. Yeah.
Speaker 4:Thank you for finishing the podcast on such an upbeat note for us. Thank you. Thanks all to you. This has been two IPs in a pod. Looking at the amazing world of the UK's IP attachés.
Speaker 5:We're safe hands. We are safe hands. If you've listened to the podcast and you've enjoyed it.
Speaker 4:Then drop us a little review somewhere so other people can find the podcast. Neil, I'll see you on a future podcast at some point. And to all of the attachés who've? Shared their time and expertise with us. Thank you so much.
Speaker 3:Thank you. Two hot peas in a. Two hot peas in a. Two hot peas in a. Two hot peas in a.