Two IPs In A Pod
Brilliant inventions, fresh product designs, iconic brand names and artistic creativity are not only the building blocks of successful business - they deliver a better world for us all. But these valuable forms of intellectual property must be protected in order to flourish. We are the Chartered Institute of Patent Attorneys - the UK's largest intellectual property organisation. Our hosts Lee Davies and Gwilym Roberts chat with entrepreneurs, creatives, patent attorneys and the occasional judge about how patents, trade marks, designs and copyright can improve our lives and solve problems for humanity.
Two IPs In A Pod
INTA San Diego Special with... Willard Knox
What happens when podcast hosts become the guests? This delightful crossover episode brings together the worlds of "Two IPs in a Pod" and INTA's "Brand & New" as we welcome host Willard Knox for a behind-the-microphone conversation about the art and craft of intellectual property podcasting.
I don't understand what's going on. Explain it to me. What are you talking about?
Speaker 3:Lee Davis and Gwilym Roberts are the two IPs in a pod and you are listening to a podcast on intellectual property brought to you by the Chartered Institute of Patent Attorneys.
Speaker 1:So, gwilym, on the podcast now, this is quite exciting for us because we've always wanted to do a podcast mash-up, haven't we? Yes, and we've got the opportunity to do it now, right, because we've got one of the world's foremost podcasters.
Speaker 1:Indeed, indeed, it's huge, it is huge, yeah, yeah, yeah yeah, I'm going to now worry about whether I'll get your name right, willem, because Will Willem told me a little joke before we came into the podcast. That's not fair. So Willard Knox, yeah, yeah. So in the UK we have this saying about coming from the school of hard knocks and he said you could come from the school of Willard Knox.
Speaker 3:Sorry, I wasn't going to share that.
Speaker 2:I usually get Fort Knox or this will probably get edited out the movie Willard, the famous horror movie from the 70s which I remember seeing. Guy Willard is the main character, bruce Davison brilliant actor, and he has trained rats who kill. And then, of course, there was the sequel Equally Beloved Ben. Which is the Michael Jackson song. I'm sure I'm going to get fired after recording this podcast, but you know, Ben, the song Michael Jackson, the take Anyway. So I was expecting when you said that here we go with Willard.
Speaker 4:I haven't heard it for a while.
Speaker 2:But see now, you know.
Speaker 1:So welcome to the podcast.
Speaker 2:Thank you for having me. This is awesome.
Speaker 1:We're aware you do a bit of this thing as well, so you're used to it I mean it's a place to start. I mean we have a backstory, we have a reason why we started podcasting. It was something that we were always going to do, but then the pandemic came along and gave us the time and the space to do it.
Speaker 3:Because you know, there we are.
Speaker 1:Gwilym was in his wherever you were. Attic luxury, attic that was my luxury attic.
Speaker 3:I was in the garden shed. I was in my boutique cellar.
Speaker 1:And it was like let's give this thing a go, never expecting it to take off, Never expecting it to be like 175-ish episodes down the track. I'm hoping it will take off.
Speaker 2:I think it's cross.
Speaker 3:I think after this episode it's going to go viral.
Speaker 2:But I don't want to toot my own horn, and it's developed over time.
Speaker 1:I think I've said this to you before, but I've listened back to some of the early ones and now what we do. Now we're so much more professional. We understand how to make it work for our guests and all that sort of thing. How did you get into it? Tell us the INTA story.
Speaker 2:So the INTA story started before I was involved. It launched in 2018. And the idea was I mean, I was working there, but they had another podcast.
Speaker 4:I was like what are you going to do Not for long? Where are they?
Speaker 2:now Exactly, and you see how that worked out. No, I shouldn't say that, cut that, cut that, but the idea was they were they wanted to talk about brands, but also innovation. Yeah. So the idea was when I first heard the name, I thought, well, brand new. You know, you always say like it's, like you know, etsy or something new out of the box, like brand new. So they took that and the clever thing was to throw in the little ampersand and say, well, we're talking about IP and brands, but we also want to educate people about that, but we also want to talk about what's the latest thing, For example, you may have heard a little something about AI.
Speaker 2:It's getting a little buzz not too much right now, but it seems to be surfacing as a topic. So you know, the idea was to kind of cover both those things for IP lawyers, so for preaching to the choir, to say like brands are great and we should protect them, like yes, yes, I agree, my clients agree. But also for people who know nothing about IP and or think IP shouldn't exist or it's a problem or it's getting in the way, to say, like you know, I want to learn a little bit before you have that opinion.
Speaker 3:Do you know how?
Speaker 4:I know you're a pro Because you've been banging the table?
Speaker 2:No, but then you stopped yourself.
Speaker 3:I saw you, no, no, with your beautiful brass. Oh well, thank you.
Speaker 1:I saw how you stopped that, that's pro. So we're not normally sat around a table with those kinds of things happening are we?
Speaker 3:This creaky chair here is horrific, so it's interesting.
Speaker 1:We do very few of these in person. Yeah, yeah, yeah and they're always slightly more difficult to do than the remote ones, because when they're remote, I mean we can send one of our little messages in the chat bar and stuff like that.
Speaker 4:How quickly can?
Speaker 2:we get through this one. I just remembered I have a loaf of bread in the oven. I've've got to go, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1:Talk to us a little bit about sourcing guests. How do you?
Speaker 2:identify your targets. Well, my brilliant producer, who you met earlier, slash co-worker, tracy Ayers, she really does all the sourcing, although I'm going to take a little credit. I recently found a guest who oh right, that's the best I can get.
Speaker 4:Yeah, I just love being able to say that my producer.
Speaker 2:You know, I found someone that I won't reveal, but I'm hoping we're going to get that person on an episode soon that I had heard. It actually had a CLE for the Copyright Society, right Another IP association and it was great, talking about music and IP and I was like, well, well, this is perfect because of the world IP day and all that stuff. But we put him on hold because we were doing the opposition band, which is the INTA member opposition TM. So really I just kind of show up, I suggest people, so I hope this person will. I'm pretty sure we will get him slash her. I don't want to reveal too much identifying information, but you know. So she really does that and then I help out when I can. But it's been great because I just kind of show up and she tells me here's some research, here's some planning, you know, but can I just go?
Speaker 3:in and do it, you bring some energy. I can feel that that's amazing, yeah, to be fair and ours, so we made this.
Speaker 1:The idea early on was for it to be a double hander kind of host thing.
Speaker 2:I don't want to say I'm jealous of it, but I have co-hosts, you know. Heather you, matt, and we never host together and. I love this.
Speaker 3:I think it just brings a different energy than the you know, because every now and then one or other of us gets a bit of a dip and we just the a dip. The other one knows and takes it on.
Speaker 1:Oh, a bit of a dip like you, like I'm over that yeah, never total boredom yeah yeah, why did we invite this? Guest, but also what works for us, because I mean, gwilym is obviously the cast I&IP professional patent attorney of many years. Yes, many years my background isn't IP. I've been with Sleeper 13 years but my background is education.
Speaker 2:I know I was so interested.
Speaker 1:I was like your story is really take over and do some questioning, if you want. Yeah.
Speaker 3:I love that. It's so interesting?
Speaker 2:no, it's just that you don't it's great to see someone who's not you know who went a different way.
Speaker 1:I love that I can ask the kind of elephant in the room question sometimes.
Speaker 4:Oh, right, yeah hang on.
Speaker 1:I don't understand what's going on.
Speaker 2:Don't explain it to me. What are you talking about?
Speaker 1:Yeah, Especially when it gets into, like the hard tech areas or initialisms and acronyms Converse.
Speaker 3:Yeah, when it comes to anything about ethics and morality, I just hand of the league and I don't understand that stuff at all it goes well, so but we do, I mean, you don't do a lot of research, do you?
Speaker 1:I think it's fair to say no, I do quite a bit of research, so that's the other thing we do.
Speaker 4:We kind of make it work that way around.
Speaker 1:Yeah, got any kind of backroom stories you can share with us.
Speaker 2:I mean, I wish I did you know, I really I was like I could just make something up, you know. When so-and-so was on, you wouldn't believe they all have been really smooth for me so far, you know. So we'll see if that continues to play out, and I don't actually know.
Speaker 2:I mean, if something goes wrong, I assume it gets cut yeah yeah, I'm pretty sure, there are things that I've said that were not controversial, but, as you can tell, I'm a little, you know, chatty, so they're like, okay, we can't do this for three hours, so let's cut that section. But it's always kind of fun to see what does make it in. You know things that I think, oh, they're going to, you know, like in the opposition one, which is not to push that episode on you, but I found out one of the guys, jason Vogel, also is a biker motorcycle guy. Yeah, yeah. So I asked him about that and he talked about it that they kept in. That's cool.
Speaker 3:The infringers? Yeah, so the opposition one is with the band to me, yeah, it's with two of the co-founders Jason Vogel, richard Disman.
Speaker 2:Jason Vogel, richard Disman. I'm going to get that wrong, but I'm pretty sure that's right. Who's in Germany? Jason's in New York with me. The third guy wasn't able to join us because he was in Asia and it was like 3 in the morning or something.
Speaker 3:But yeah, it was a ton of fun. You know, we saw that we were looking at the list of band members. Oh, it's extraordinary.
Speaker 4:It's an operation.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, yeah, members, it's an operation, yeah, the operation of the opposition. Yeah, so much going on. Yeah, yeah, must make rehearsal quite difficult well, that's the thing too.
Speaker 2:Especially during covid, it was like, how did you guys do it? You know, and they they have two videos out on zoom, not so two videos they created, which is great, yeah, but yeah, they had the same thing like oh well, we had that issue because we had an office band in my, my firm.
Speaker 3:Oh okay, I'm trying to rehearse, you can't? The lag makes it absolutely impossible. We managed to put one song together, but it took one person almost 24 hours of editing to get all the parts to fit together. Yeah, yeah. So we did do that sea shanty though.
Speaker 1:Have you ever saw that oh?
Speaker 4:I did see the sea shanty.
Speaker 3:We did the sea sh was really good fun. Actually just four voices and that was a lot easier to edit oh, oh, yeah, it's somewhere, I can see it.
Speaker 3:It's somewhere online oh, I'd love to see it. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And also actually you know you both talked that sea shanty is very interesting because we we were chatting, we're chatting over zoom in deep, deep lockdown about doing a sea shanty and then also chatting about all what life was like, and we actually got onto the conversation about what you're going to do when this is over and that's the song. So it's like a little historical document of what people were talking about and basically the theme is we're going to go to the pub. Basically the whole song is we're going to go to the pub when it's all over. But it's funny to it because some of the things you were wanting to go to a crowded room I know is one of the lyrics and think, gosh, you know who wants to go to a crowded room, but back then it's like I want to see people anyway it's interesting, it's become a podcast about us.
Speaker 1:We'll let you speak in a moment we should talk more. I think it was the Leeds. We do regional events with our members and I think it was our. Leeds regional event and I was chatting to one of the members there and he said do you know what you guys are actually doing on the podcast or what's that? He said you're actually making a social history of IP. That's on the wall. Yes, that's interesting, yeah, and all of a sudden I felt a sense of purpose About time.
Speaker 3:No, you're right, you talk about what's topical. And then actually, I was just here we go, I'm talking again. I was listening into a really good comedy podcast, but they started in deep lockdown as well and the conversations they were having it was a different era of it. That's going to come back and you'll be able to go to those resources and say that's what was going on, right?
Speaker 1:right, so let's get serious about the I-N-T-A.
Speaker 3:Okay okay.
Speaker 2:I've learned that my serious voice okay, I need to say I-N-T-A and not Inter.
Speaker 1:I've learned that today.
Speaker 2:Actually, I thought so too, but I was told by a very senior officer at the organization which I'll remain nameless, she wouldn't care that you can say both.
Speaker 4:I always thought they were debating information.
Speaker 3:Yeah, I'm deeply confused.
Speaker 2:No, no, well, the thing was too like. People would say I'll see you at Inter, and I thought, well, if it's a trademark, shouldn't you say I'll see you at the Inter meeting.
Speaker 4:Yeah, you know, right, you know what I'm saying Very good.
Speaker 3:But I think the bottom line is people are like we don't. We call it Intar Just to add complexity to the debate.
Speaker 1:I would love it, like some people call us Kipper, I would love it.
Speaker 2:I would love it.
Speaker 4:Yeah, start a trend.
Speaker 2:See if it takes. Can I get back to my serious?
Speaker 1:question oh, yes, yes. I'm sorry If you're going to be a podcast host for a moment you interrupted yourself. I'm sorry. What was? My question going to be. It was the void purpose that got me to think about this. So we quickly found that what we started off not as light hearted, but it was never meant to be really serious, was it? It was never meant to be formal has become for us a central plank of our communications strategy plan it's now.
Speaker 1:If we stopped doing it, we would lose something which is quite cool, isn't it?
Speaker 4:Is it the same at INTA?
Speaker 1:Has it become strategically?
Speaker 2:important. I mean, I hope so For my own sake. No, no, I think it is Because I think you know I was talking to my producer, tracy, about this and saying, you know, being a lawyer myself, I mean lawyers like read all the time right, and trademark administrators. It's like you're in front of a screen, you're reading, reading, reading, reading, reading and you're absorbing. It's so refreshing. I like listen to people talk, do it in a conversational way, even though you both know that it, you know, sounds conversational but it's rigidly rehearsed and you could learn something about IP without it being like. You know. It's a nice break and I think that, to me, that connection I'm sort of not answering your question, but I'm trying to the connection with other people, even on a podcast or something I feel like.
Speaker 4:I learn better, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2:I'm a freak because and I'm going to just say it on this- you can leave it in there. You know, in law school I would have wouldn't been told before like the socratic method. Oh my god, the paper chase.
Speaker 4:It's awful they're gonna ruin your life you're gonna be.
Speaker 2:You know, I thought it was kind of great and maybe it was the actor in me, but I felt like I learned better that way, like like a conversation was how I, I, I studied all the time. It didn't matter hearing that, having that dialogue or a conversation, this, you know it's a human, that human connection, you absorb it. So I think it's to me it is a central plank of the communications platform for I&T, because you've got the website, you've got the emails. You know this is something, but this is on Spotify. I'll just mention, since you asked, you know this is something, but this is on Spotify. I'll just mention, since you asked, you know Spotify, apple Podcasts, like you can find us in more places and I think that's a good thing and also people can access it, so I tend to listen to podcasts when I'm running or doing a bit of fishing or something like that.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah and it organically just seems to embed itself in my brain without me needing to do too much yeah brain without me needing to do too much. Yeah, I've got three questions coming out, that little kind of piece that you did there. I know william's got one of them written down there, so I'll leave that one. I'll leave that one with you so you can read that upside.
Speaker 4:That's because I can't read that the right way up.
Speaker 1:So I'll let you come in in a minute. I'll let you speak again in a moment I'm not gonna be happy.
Speaker 3:I'll have a dip so yeah
Speaker 1:there it is. There's a dip I have to use that later.
Speaker 2:No, I'm sorry, trace, I'm having a dip, just moan silence.
Speaker 1:So you talked about the, so we work quite hard at it being a conversation. And sometimes people don't understand how much work there is in it? No, it is, it really is One of the things that we don't particularly like but occasionally people come along with are scripts. Do you get guests that sometimes turn up and they've actually got a script that they're going to work to, regardless of what you ask them?
Speaker 2:no, I mean, we usually write them and I'll send them to people and say oh, it's just a conversation we do all of that and then I say but if you veer off of this, we're going to cut it.
Speaker 4:You'll never appear again but don't worry about it, no pressure no, no, we haven't had that.
Speaker 2:Wow, oh, like, here are the things they want to cover?
Speaker 3:Yeah, but they tell us what we're going to be saying as well. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1:These are the questions you're going to ask I hope it's somebody.
Speaker 2:I know that's crazy. Yeah, I'm not worried. Should we be the names?
Speaker 1:later I'll be like uh-oh, no, it's all right.
Speaker 3:Wow, we're very open to it.
Speaker 2:we just totally go off script instantly we totally go off it yeah if you come up with a script, there's no way we're sticking to it, so that's almost the reason to be like okay, you brought the script.
Speaker 3:I'm sure some people just say what they were going to say anyway, word for word. Whatever we say, pretty much I reckon they just read out what they were going to say a great question Intellectual property.
Speaker 4:You're like wait a minute? Wait a minute.
Speaker 2:Right, you're like. The answer is you're like okay, but the other thing is that's kind of sad, though there's no fun in that.
Speaker 1:You said. You said when I was in law school.
Speaker 2:So tell us a little bit about your professional background I mentioned earlier. You know I was for many, many years. I can send you my list of credits. It's short but meaningful.
Speaker 3:No, we didn't ask you about that. Keep going. We're coming back to that. We're coming to that.
Speaker 1:I was really a theatre person loved it.
Speaker 2:I was actually a triple threat, which is an objective truth. I could sing, I could dance, I can act.
Speaker 4:I can still sing. I can still sing actually.
Speaker 3:So you're better than Fred the St because you can dance and could act a little, not at that level, can we?
Speaker 1:stick to my question, which was a little bit about the legal kind of side of the story.
Speaker 2:You know the true story is, you know, there's the official, like what I say and to people, but the you know, the real truth is I moved to New York to be an actor and I had friends who are still acting from Juilliard and they're brilliant and it's really hard it's. You know, I used to get mad at my dad. He'd be like you know it's going to be a hard life and I'd be like shut up dad. And then my friends who were doing it with this credential, you know, this amazing experience. It's a life you really have to commit to it and I felt like nah, and they were like traveling all over and I'm like traveling, okay, and then you have to sell blood in new york.
Speaker 2:I was like that that just sounds like a lot. So I kind of I'm being a little flip. But you know, I kind of made my way into law because I thought, well, I, like you know, I had lawyers in the family so and of course I always thought I'm never gonna do that. So, you know, it was kind of a natural thing and I loved writing, which is something I didn't as an actor. I just didn't really do. I mean, it certainly turned out to be something that was beyond what I would have imagined, you know. But I'm sitting here with you guys in part because I went to law school, right, yeah, yeah yeah, it's kind of the best of both worlds.
Speaker 2:Like I do not get let go of that license. But it's great because I don't have the pressure of clients, you know, like real people who want me to do things. But I still have the license, I'm still in the world and I've been able to use that degree to do other things which I would not have been able to do with just my honors bfa in acting.
Speaker 3:So that's been kind of great, you know can I ask you about the acting cool, it's so cool. So, julie, are you at julie also? You know, I didn't get in.
Speaker 2:I didn't that's a fancy drama school kind of yeah, yeah, very famous like a lot of the people like oscar isaac you may know from the star wars and other things a lot of famous people graduate there. I mean people who are not famous also, but it's like the kelsey grammar, oh. Yeah. Uh, you know, like a lot of famous people graduate there.
Speaker 2:I mean people who are not famous also, but it's like the kelsey grammar, oh yeah, uh, you know, like a lot of sort of uh, you know, it's sort of like the, like the harvard, okay, I would say of, of, um, of acting training I mean there's yale I would like to go on there too, which is meryl streep. Okay, how much time we have, meryl streep. You know? John turturro, people like that, yeah, julia was more like the. If you want to be a classically trained American actor and do Shakespeare, kevin Kline you know? Oh, really. Yeah yeah, yeah, that was sort of. That was the place for the. You know are going to do Shakespeare in the Park.
Speaker 3:And so you mentioned that you've got a range of talents there. So are you in musical theatre more or all different stuff? Well, as you mentioned, I was.
Speaker 2:I did a lot of musical theatre. Right, because I just completely loved it, Like singing is such a total blast. Yes, I did a lot of Shakespeare. I did Iago and Othello, which was I'm sure I have. The local college reviews were very, very, If they're online, which I'd be surprised if they were he was really good until he started singing and dancing.
Speaker 3:That wasn't in the play came here for legal advice exactly.
Speaker 2:Oh, I never thought about that when I was in practice. I could have just like right in court in New York court, just been like your honor, just breaking. Can you imagine? I mean those New York judges would have been like bailiff remove him that was it.
Speaker 1:I was really interested.
Speaker 2:I did Greek Tragedy also. In was really interested. I did Greek Tragedy also in which I did sing. I did a production of Persians. This is totally going to be cut right.
Speaker 4:On.
Speaker 2:Aeschylus like the first surviving Greek Tragedy. Persians, I played as they did in the original because there were no women because you because there were no women? Because you know doing women can't do that role they're too busy doing other things. I did the queen and then I did her son. So the first time I was the queen, and then the, and as the son I sang and danced. I mean, it was about death and dying, but you can still sing yeah, you can sing and you dance.
Speaker 3:Just more sympathetically right, exactly yes sad dogs.
Speaker 1:I've got one of them. You had a question, there was a question brewing and all of that oh sorry, there was nothing to do with that at all actually.
Speaker 3:No, we kind of jumped over a little bit about the name of the podcast actually yes, yes, you mentioned the ampersand, but brand yeah, it's up here in the booth.
Speaker 1:Yes, yes, there it is it is quite clever, not brand new, a piece of the board I love that.
Speaker 2:No, I do love that. I'm not just saying it because I'm a guest. I think that is just, can I say, adorable. It really is. No, no, it is, it is we were quite.
Speaker 1:Occasionally you get guests on that are quite prestigious, don't you? We had quite a well known UK political commentator come on, yeah, yeah, yeah because he also he does myth busting and and stuff like that and they've done some work around IP. So we had him on to talk about that and the first thing he said to us was this is best name for podcast, but I think, brand new is better brand new is much better.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it's really brand new, just my own product. But I think you guys are and you've got that cute little graphic. I mean, come on.
Speaker 3:I have to whenever I get my glasses done same glasses, so I look like my media image now it's ridiculous. But yeah, no, it's great. Then I mean brand new. It's clever it. You see it first with brand new and then it jumps into yeah, yeah done actually, and it's got meaning as well yeah, I'm like two ips in the pod, it's just a good joke.
Speaker 1:So we have a backstory which don't often tell on the podcast about that, and that's that.
Speaker 2:It wasn't our original choice of name oh, so we were going, so we were going to be Idea Suit, if you remember, and you got sued. No, no, well, no, no.
Speaker 1:We found that there was someone who was using it on. Was it Instagram or something like?
Speaker 4:that he had a very small number of followers.
Speaker 1:Oh wow. So we were in the IP space, you're not just going to trample over. Someone Right reached out and we said look, you know, we're kind of invested in this. We like the name, you know. Quite happy for you to carry on, but do you mind if we do this? And he said well, actually I was thinking about doing a podcast in the future.
Speaker 1:He never did, but I was thinking about doing a podcast in the future and we thought, well, we can't do that but actually what we came up with is more relevant to what we do anyway, yeah, and then yeah.
Speaker 3:So we have worked every possible pun out of every version of it over the years. Do you remember the favourite one? Actually, just quickly, we did a band night, don't you remember? We called it Patents Act. Yeah, I was quite proud of that.
Speaker 1:Oh, I like the black eyed peas. Yeah, that was our office band for black eyed peas.
Speaker 4:That's good, that's good.
Speaker 3:I think there's nothing left now. I'm pretty sure we have one with James Bond films but with IP puns on it, and the best one I saw wasn't me, it was somebody who said the Dutch for patent is octroi, like natal edge octroi bureau just octroi pussy it was just brilliant. Now, that's just too neat, all you need to do is know James Bond IP and.
Speaker 4:Dutch bang, yeah, yeah All you need to do is know James Bond IP and Dutch Bang yeah.
Speaker 1:We're close to time, willard, okay. One of the things that I do on the podcast is keep an eye on the drop, which is why I've normally got it running. Willard's now looking at who we've got next. Okay next.
Speaker 4:I was told this was going to be yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2:Oh, this is a pinnacle.
Speaker 3:This is a pinnacle should we just drop that mic.
Speaker 1:Do not drop my expensive mic. They're a cheap mic I can drop. So are you sat there thinking thank god they didn't ask me that, or I really wanted to talk about this? Is there a piece of the jigsaw missing? Tough question, I know sorry no, I don't think so.
Speaker 2:I mean I don't. Yeah, there's nothing that I was surprised or bored by in the questioning, excellent.
Speaker 4:Excellent.
Speaker 1:Well, you know what?
Speaker 2:And this will be obsequious flattery, but it's true, I mean listening to you guys before you know to get's ip and but they're, it's like fun and you guys are really good and my producer, tracy, has told me this before like just and I. I interestingly, as an actor, I have trouble a little going off script because wait a minute. Wait a minute. Yeah, you know, like you don't have to cover it all, you, there's a flow here that I love, like you're just you're in it.
Speaker 1:Oh, that's so nice.
Speaker 2:However, the conversation's going, you run with it. You know that's, but that's not easy. In my having done three episodes myself. You know it's actually it's hard to do.
Speaker 1:You make it seem easy, but it's actually. I would say that's what we've got better at, because if I listen back to the earlier ones, it was very much well Gwilym's time to ask a question, whereas now we don't do that do we?
Speaker 3:We just kind of no. Occasionally we'll be messaging off on the side. I'll just say, right, you're up, or whatever it might be, but yeah.
Speaker 1:And it does make more of a.
Speaker 3:Occasionally, you get those tumbleweed moments and we know how each other thinks.
Speaker 2:Yeah, which is great. There's like a flow to it, like this flow was really great, you know, like it.
Speaker 1:So I'd like to, I'd like to. I'm going to take that away and try to do that. You need a co-host, as in a co-hosted host, it does seem like it's really fun.
Speaker 3:Obviously, no one knows what Inter's going to be next year.
Speaker 2:Only our NTA. Thank you, no next year.
Speaker 3:Oh, the INTA, thank you. No one knows what the INTA is going to be or what it's, how it's going to be pronounced hopefully.
Speaker 2:I know nothing. I know nothing we're enjoying this.
Speaker 1:I think we should link up and do more together we could do something really exciting next year once we know where it is. No, no, no, this was a treat, this is a total treat, and an honor like you guys are again sequestrated.
Speaker 2:But truly like, you're really good like it's no, no, no, I mean. I'm learning a lot. I think we've got all this. Yeah, it's true, it's really.
Speaker 1:Oh no, there was a power outage oh no, you're not allowed to speak on the podcast, you're the producer oh no, she exists, it's true, thank you so much for sharing the talk with us. It's been a pleasure, it's been a pleasure.
Speaker 2:This was a blast, a total blast yeah, no, no, no, really, yeah, yeah. I don't say that. I won't say that to other people around, so trust me, I mean it yeah, thank you so much okay, we'll see you next time.
Speaker 4:Two IPs in a. Two IPs in a. Two IPs in a.