Two IPs In A Pod
Brilliant inventions, fresh product designs, iconic brand names and artistic creativity are not only the building blocks of successful business - they deliver a better world for us all. But these valuable forms of intellectual property must be protected in order to flourish. We are the Chartered Institute of Patent Attorneys - the UK's largest intellectual property organisation. Our hosts Lee Davies and Gwilym Roberts chat with entrepreneurs, creatives, patent attorneys and the occasional judge about how patents, trade marks, designs and copyright can improve our lives and solve problems for humanity.
Two IPs In A Pod
INTA San Diego Special with… Charles Randolph and Brian Beckham from WIPO
Step into the fascinating world of global intellectual property protection with Charles Randolph and Brian Beckham from the World Intellectual Property Organization (WIPO). What begins as an annual update on WIPO's activities quickly transforms into a revealing conversation about the organization's far-reaching influence on the intellectual property landscape.
Charles, who heads WIPO's industry and NGO relations, shares how the organization manages relationships with over 300 accredited associations worldwide, coordinating specialists, organizing events, and facilitating crucial connections across the entire IP spectrum. Meanwhile, Brian offers captivating insights into the evolution of domain name disputes since the internet's early days. As head of WIPO's Internet Dispute Resolution team, he explains how their work has shifted from handling simple domain squatters to combating sophisticated phishing campaigns and fraud, especially as AI tools advance.
I got a nasty letter from Washington saying you need to come back to Washington or we'll never promote you again because you've spent too much time overseas. Lee Davis and Gwilym Roberts are the two IPs in a pod and you are listening to a podcast on intellectual property brought to you by the Chartered Institute of Patent Attorneys.
Speaker 2:Institute of Patent Attorneys.
Speaker 3:So we've got time now for what's become an annual one for us the annual WIPO podcast. Oh yeah, it's the big league now. Yeah, the big league I mean, we did a WIPO podcast at Atlanta last year, so this is our anniversary WIPO podcast. It's like the World Cup of Patents WIPO, isn't it? So we've got Charles and Brian with us. Charles, do you want to introduce yourself first? Shall we go with you?
Speaker 1:Certainly, charles Randolph. I'm the head of the section that deals with industry and NGO relations at WIPO and this sits within the external relations division. So all the types of liaison work with groups, like yours, with groups, like Inter, et cetera.
Speaker 3:Yeah, we talk a lot, don't we? In terms of email and stuff like that. It's nice to meet you in person. Pleasure, Pleasure. We've met in person.
Speaker 4:Yes, we don't talk about it.
Speaker 1:No, no, no absolutely not.
Speaker 3:No, absolutely not. Okay, carry on, we'll talk about that later.
Speaker 2:Brian, First of all, thank you so much, gentlemen, for inviting us. My name is Brian Beckham. I head up our Internet Dispute Resolution team at WIPO and primarily people here at INTA will know that for the UDRP, which is the Uniform Domain Name Dispute Resolution Policy which helps brand owners reclaim infringing domain names, and then, of course, we're involved in policy talks in the Internet space and coordinate closely with our INTA colleagues on those types of matters Cool.
Speaker 3:That sounds like really exciting stuff to get into. Should we talk a little bit about the NGO sort of stakeholder relationship side of it first. Charles, is that perhaps a nice place to start? How many relationships does an organisation like WIPO have? It must have many, many relationships.
Speaker 1:It does Technically. Wipo has over 300 officially accredited ngo or industry associations, but they're approximately, I would say, a half dozen to a dozen that are actually very, very active. Sipa into into, for example, is one of our most active industry associations yeah, cool and daily, day-to-day, weekly basis.
Speaker 3:What's your gig? What are you doing?
Speaker 1:What would I be doing? I would be receiving delegations in Geneva, making sure that specialists from the different associations matched up with our specialists, setting up schedules, organizing events. I would be coordinating teams from WIPO coming out to events like this. Coordinating teams from WIPO coming out to events like this. So they wanted a specialist like Brian to speak on his topics, or someone to speak on, say, the Madrid system or other things. So it's quite a bit of liaison work and I think what's really interesting about it for me is that it involves the entire organization of WIPO, so it's not just one section. We have the copyrights, we have the trademarks, we have the patents, we have the arbitration and mediation. There's a whole gamut of activities and it's a really fun job because you get to live with people all across the spectrum. Are you on the road a lot? No, actually I'm not, not so often.
Speaker 1:Oh, really no not as often as you would think Supporting many colleagues on the road quite a bit, yes, Okay. And then receiving. We receive, I would say, probably 12 formal delegations for day-long visits at WIPO each year.
Speaker 3:So bringing you in. Brian, my understanding of your area is quite limited, so in my head it's so. I remember the early days of the internet it's sad being that old, isn't it and there were things that domain name squatters, where people would perhaps get in first even before a brand had um thought about protecting its identity. Is it that sort of thing, or has it moved on significantly?
Speaker 2:it's, it's largely that sort of thing.
Speaker 2:So we we actually just last month in geneva we hosted a conference where we commemorated the 25th anniversary of the drpP, and in preparing for that we went over some of the history, and there was a lot of people around here will know an article in Wired magazine where the journalist went to register McDonald'scom because it was freely available started down the path of exploring what does it take to get a domain name, how do they deal with clashes with trademarks and so on, and at its core, the problem remains the same.
Speaker 2:So brand owners can reclaim domain names that have been acquired by someone before they could get to it. And it's evolved a little bit over the years to where in the past you would see, pay-per-click advertising was quite popular in one phase, just extortion, you know, pay me some money or I'll put up some things on this website that you don't like, and that still exists. But we're seeing a much bigger intersection these days, which has been really kind of accelerated by advancements in AI tools. But already going back a couple of years, we've seen a much sharper intersection between the work we do and cybersecurity, phishing, fraud. So there's quicker ways to address that, but a lot of brand owners will still file a case with us if there's a phishing campaign on the back of a domain name, so that they can permanently keep that name out of the hands of infringers in the future name out of the hands of infringers in the future.
Speaker 3:Can we just track back to something you said fairly early on in that piece, and that was the nexus between domain name registration management and trademarks, Because I think people think that they're one and the same and clearly they're not, are they? So how do the two come together?
Speaker 2:Really, it's up to individual brand owners and businesses to pull them together. There are a small handful of IP offices and national domain name registries, so you guys might be familiar with uk for the UK namespace, ch for Switzerland, where we live.
Speaker 2:Some IP offices and the national registries help provide information to a trademark applicant or a domain name registrant to say in effect, you've sought this right. Or you applicant or a domain name registrant to say in effect, you've sought this right or you've sought this domain name. Did you want to also register a trademark or register?
Speaker 3:a domain name to prevent somebody else from doing this.
Speaker 2:It's still a fairly niche thing that the IP offices and the national registries communicate, so ultimately a lot of times it's down to organizations like IMTA, law firms, vendors and so on to scan what's going on on the internet, provide reports to the brand owners and then they decide if names are available, they register them. If they're already taken, then they have some choices to make.
Speaker 4:So the thing that always interested me, I mean the internet, was always the Wild West and I remember the early cybersporting thing Wasn't it Elizabeth, WWW. Really Wild West and I remember the early cyber-squatting thing, wasn't it Elizabeth? Www, really Wild West, there you go. That's what it was Elizabeth yesterday was saying, wasn't she that she was involved in, I think, the first cyber-squatting case in New.
Speaker 2:York, where no?
Speaker 4:one knew what domain names were or how it all worked. What is WIPO's jurisdiction, as it were? How do you guys actually with the global system? Do you own?
Speaker 2:it. We don't own the. There's an organization out of California called ICANN and they're kind of a spinoff of some US government agencies that run the technical protocols that keep the Internet running the way the UDRP works. It's an alternative to courts, so it's an administrative mechanism. There was an early design question about whether it should be arbitration or administrative process, which is managed through a contract. So every person who registers a com domain name anywhere in the world is subject to an agreement which says you agree to go to this organization to be IPO, in case someone says they'd like to make a claim against you. And the beauty of it is it allows the registration authorities to basically outsource the complaints that would otherwise be coming to them, and it operates globally, which is a necessity nowadays. The the need to go to individual national courts obviously would be time and cost prohibitive for brand owners and um.
Speaker 4:What is the? What you're at inter? We're all into? This is into podcasts. What is um? What's your goal here, what you're trying to achieve, what you have to get out of it?
Speaker 2:for us so well, I should say. We have colleagues from our Hague department and Madrid department, in addition to Charles and myself, and so tomorrow we have a session in the plenary where we're providing an update on all the WIPO services. Specifically I think we're not really different in that respect Awareness raising we're very popular. We had in the past 10 years a pretty steady rise average 8% to 10% year-on-year in terms of case numbers. So it's something that obviously a lot of people know about and use. But still there are people who maybe aren't familiar with our services. We're here to allow people to ask us questions if they want to do a deeper dive on particular topics. We're providing some updates on policy work we're doing.
Speaker 4:Charles, we had a quick chat just before we started recording. You're pretty busy here as well. Yes, quite busy. Where have you gone?
Speaker 1:Tomorrow, as at the session that Brian had mentioned, I'm going to be presenting on one of our programs called WIPO Alert, and this is an endeavor whereby national governments will provide WIP can run checks before they place on illegitimate websites.
Speaker 1:So there's a lot of work being done in those types of domains. People aren't even familiar. There's more and more work being done on protecting IP, enforcing IP. We're also going to be discussing a customs recordation system that we are piloting. It's not yet launched, but that will be put in place later in the year to enable customs authorities to have more ready access to IP materials so that they can more readily identify infringing goods at the border.
Speaker 4:That's a bit like an anti-counterfeiting kind of measure.
Speaker 1:Yes, so to speak. Yes, and then, of course, as Brian had also mentioned, this being Inta and the Madrid system managing global trademarks, we're going to be launching for the first time here the new eMadrid platform, which is kind of a revised, renewed platform to facilitate the activities of trademark attorneys and owners in terms of managing their trademarks.
Speaker 4:As you said, some panelists are always saying oh, why could they do PCT, right that's it. You guys do a lot actually.
Speaker 1:Yeah, pct is our major earner. I think it earns roughly 77% to 78% of the revenues of the organization, followed by Madrid. Okay, every business has to have a trademark, as every business has to have a trademark. Yeah, not every business has to have a patent.
Speaker 4:Yeah, and so interestingly these are different business models with firms that do patents and trademarks. They're quite different business models. Actually, that's interesting. And how did you get into all this, Charles? How did you get to WIPO? Where were you before?
Speaker 3:That's a great question.
Speaker 1:Yeah, how did you get into all this, charles? How did you get to WIPO? Where were you before? That's a great question. Yeah, it's kind of an odd question. I was a foreign service officer.
Speaker 4:It's not an odd question, it's a podcast. That's what we do.
Speaker 1:I was a US diplomat, a foreign service officer, Spent most of my time overseas because I really really enjoyed spending time overseas until. I got a nasty letter from Washington saying you need to come back to Washington or we'll never promote you again because you've spent too much time overseas. First they sent me to Afghanistan, where I spent a year in the latter years of the war.
Speaker 1:Then I went back to Washington and just by chance, they put me in an office of intellectual property enforcement. So up until 2015, I had never even heard of WIPO. And then suddenly I was plunged into this office and I had to help work and coordinate US government policy interagency policy on IP, because IP is so much more than just the technical aspect.
Speaker 1:There's foreign policy aspect, there's the culture, there's everything else. So this was an office that kind of managed at a very high level because, as we all know, it's the culture, there's everything else. So this was an office that kind of managed at a very high level because, as we all know, it's the USPTO that leads on all the technical issues, without a question. And so at that time I made some contacts at WIPO. It looked like an organization really solid that is very, very interested in joining, and a position came available. I applied for it and decided, after some thinking, that I would make the jump.
Speaker 4:So you're not US government. I am not US government. Are you a WIPO at WIPO, I'm 100% WIPO at WIPO.
Speaker 1:yeah, I took my retirement from the Foreign Service and started a second career.
Speaker 3:Cool, we've already got to get Brian's's backstory as well.
Speaker 2:Yeah, definitely, please. Uh, mine may be slightly less interesting. So I was doing trademark prosecution work, amongst a few other things, at a at a boutique firm in the washington dc area and the opportunity came up to do a rotation as a case manager for the work that we do, and the idea was to come over and do that for a year and learn the ropes about this domain name stuff and go back to DC, and one thing just sort of led to another. I was lucky enough to get on to a few project teams and really enjoyed being in Switzerland and the work that we were doing. So I've been here almost 20 years abroad now.
Speaker 4:So I've met a few people from WIPO and one thing feeling I get is that maybe Geneva generally is just full of people from it's a UN agency, isn't it? So it's kind of international place. One thing I remember very strongly was a visitor from WIPO coming to London and taking a few attorneys out for lunch, and at the end of it, when they came with the bill, they said can you just charge it? No, you can't just randomly assume that they'll let the UN pay later.
Speaker 2:Is that?
Speaker 4:what happens in Geneva. Or was that just a one-off? Must be a one-off? No, it's quite interesting, but it gives that insight into a place where there's a huge visibility of the international community within Geneva.
Speaker 2:There really is. There's a real big civil service footprint in Geneva from the international community. It's a big driver of the local economy and we're all very happy to be there.
Speaker 4:Yeah, and in terms of, is a complete, genuine curiosity. Once you get working for WIPO, wipo gets you right to work and all that kind of thing, presumably that's. That's all worked out. That's quite interesting. So you get that adventure of living abroad a bit less complexity, I suppose to a certain extent.
Speaker 1:I mean, obviously they facilitate your identity, your ID cards, your work permits etc. But essentially when at least when I was hired by WIPO, other than that, it was really up to me to find a house to do all the logistics work. But it's a wonderful place to work, excellent work environment and, as Brian was saying, geneva is just a lovely place.
Speaker 4:Do they need any podcasters? Wipod.
Speaker 3:Wipod, wipod. That's what you're on for, aren't you right? So can I ask a question about Inter? Ok, because you guys are here in I was going to say in force, but you know you can see the stand. It's got a nice big ceiling dangly hanging above it so it's easy to find. So Inter's important to you, yeah. What are the objectives? What do you get out of it?
Speaker 1:Well, I mean the users of the Madrid system. I mean it's mainly the Inter, our Inter clients, the companies, the attorneys, and then we also get tremendous exposure, right, if Brian is here. How often do we have the opportunity to have an audience of 10,000?
Speaker 2:go.
Speaker 1:So it offers a tremendous opportunity to get our messages across to network things like that Are you ready for London next year?
Speaker 4:It's official now it's official. We've talked about it. We've talked about it.
Speaker 3:We've not talked about it on the other podcasts, even though we know we didn't know, know, because obviously we wouldn't know. We wouldn't have heard it.
Speaker 1:Yeah we didn't know.
Speaker 3:Yeah, because it was well kept secret.
Speaker 4:Back to the question.
Speaker 1:I'll let Brian say, but very, very ready for London Especially. I think we could all do without a nine hour jet lag, which is plaguing many of us these past couple of days, jet lag which is plaguing many of us these past couple of days, I guess for you also.
Speaker 4:I mean again, it's an opportunity while you're there to every year you can do some extra visits. I guess would you normally bolt a couple of things on, do you think it's sort of quite interesting?
Speaker 3:When we come to Entity, you mean You're angling for a SEPA gig and also the podcast bus, Podcast bus yeah, we think, well, we have no idea. It's got to happen. Now. It's got to happen. Did we say it? We said it already.
Speaker 4:We've said it about two times now. We reckon we're going to get a bus and do the podcast from a double-decker bus next year.
Speaker 1:Very cool. Oh, that would be really cool that oh, road, tour, road tour.
Speaker 2:Let's do it yeah. Road tour, Good yeah.
Speaker 3:And that saves you travelling costs. Then as well, cut the hammocks in the bus and we're sorted.
Speaker 1:But I think, if honestly, I think everyone's thrilled that it'll be in London next year, yeah, it's a cool city of America, so you guys are obviously American origin.
Speaker 4:When you're over here, do you go and see family?
Speaker 2:or do you just come here and go home again? It depends. I was lucky enough this time to get to see my mom for a few days before I came over here. It doesn't always work out that way, but this time it was the stars aligned, so that's always great.
Speaker 4:Where was that?
Speaker 2:so that's in Cincinnati Ohio, so sort of a pit stop.
Speaker 1:I think it all depends on where our families live as well. My family's on the East Coast, so I had taken the opportunity to go back over the Easter holiday visit my mother. So on this trip, no, it'll be just San Diego and back to Geneva. That's a good trip.
Speaker 3:So, gwendo, I was thinking maybe end the podcast with another tangential kind of mystery question do it, if that's okay, because I have one, so, guys. So what we do? We've not been doing it a lot while we've been here because these things go through quite quickly, but ordinarily we try and come back to the end of the podcast with the questions, maybe related to the content, but maybe only loosely. This is quite loosely. What's what's the worst or the funniest or most unusual domain name you've ever seen?
Speaker 4:Oh, that's actually unusual. You've got me there for once, because you've got one.
Speaker 3:Of course I've got one. Of course I've got one.
Speaker 4:That's just so I can think of something that's really rude. So I'm not doing it on the podcast. I'm going to duck that for the first time in my. I come back. I come back to you okay, I think about it.
Speaker 3:Thank you, yes, yeah, yeah, I usually lot, usually lots of domain names.
Speaker 2:So there's kind of two, two lenses for this question there's. There's sometimes some of the defenses we get for why someone registered a domain name. It matches your, your cat's name or, yeah, sound your baby makes, or something like this. It just happens to also be a famous brand, but I think one that always kind of stuck out to me was in the US for American football. We have the Super Bowl big TV thing, and so there was a gentleman who had registered a bunch of domain names around the Super Bowl a number of years ago and he wrote in and said no, no, no, this is all just some confusion. I'm very sorry, I wasn't really thinking about this NFL guys, I'm just a fan of owls and I wanted to put up a bunch of websites about superb owls Superb owls.
Speaker 2:Needless to say, the NFL was able to reclaim that name.
Speaker 3:Absolutely genius, Charles. You got any.
Speaker 1:Honestly, I think I'll have to join Willem in that.
Speaker 3:This is such a deflate. I was really impressed with this question.
Speaker 4:Only because you got it. Well, I've got my answer now, which is tangential because it's a cheat answer. My grandmother's name is Dorothy and she was known as Dot, and so when Beth, the one who was born her middle name was Dot.
Speaker 3:Brian's alarm is going off, so that's the end of the podcast. Carry on.
Speaker 4:So her name is Beth Dot Roberts. Oh, everyone says that's a good domain name.
Speaker 3:Mine's very, very quick if you've got just a minute left. So we were tendering for a new SEPA database some years ago. So we had a number of firms come up to show us their wares and one was very, very excited because they were doing something for the British psychotherapy um organization and it was therapist register.
Speaker 4:Oh, yeah, okay, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 3:And he was so proud, he put therapist registercouk up on the screen and stuff like that. Yeah, there's only one way you can read that. Yeah, yeah, guys, thank you so much for coming on. It's been a it's been a pleasure. Enjoy the rest of of inter and I'll catch up at some point, I'm sure. Thank you very much.
Speaker 1:Yeah, thank you very much on behalf of wipe out. Been a pleasure speaking with you.
Speaker 2:We'll see you next time.