Two IPs In A Pod
Brilliant inventions, fresh product designs, iconic brand names and artistic creativity are not only the building blocks of successful business - they deliver a better world for us all. But these valuable forms of intellectual property must be protected in order to flourish. We are the Chartered Institute of Patent Attorneys - the UK's largest intellectual property organisation. Our hosts Lee Davies and Gwilym Roberts chat with entrepreneurs, creatives, patent attorneys and the occasional judge about how patents, trade marks, designs and copyright can improve our lives and solve problems for humanity.
Two IPs In A Pod
How The New EQE Changes Training, Exams, And Exemptions
Want a clear roadmap to the new EQE without the confusion or the myths? We sat down with the people who helped design it to unpack the why, the what, and the how, so you can plan your path with confidence.
Lee and Gwilym unpack with Chris Mercer, Julia Gwilt and Debbie Slater the new EQE structure with the leaders who shaped it, explain why the change was needed, and map the staged path from Paper F through M3 and M4. They share guidance for trainees, tutors, and firms on training registration, materials, exemptions, and transitions.
Hey Gwillem, welcome back to the world of podcasting. I think this is the first one in our new series. How cool's that? Very uh very cool. Very cool, Lee. So it's been a little while since you admit it's not that we've not spoken to one another, but it's we've not spoken to one another in the context of being the host of two IPs and a pod. Uh what have you been up to? Anything exciting?
SPEAKER_05:Yeah, it feels like it's quite a lot, but so much that if I start listing it, I'm not sure we're going to keep any listeners. However, I know you've done something really exciting. What have I done? Moved house. Moved house. Yes, I've moved house. Yeah. Up upscaled. Obviously, we've got everyone done the operation.
SPEAKER_06:So swiftly approaching my 60th birthday, I've decided to move house and get a longer mortgage, which is terribly scary, but possibly keeps me at cheaper for longer. So that may that may be a good thing or it may be a bad thing. Who knows?
SPEAKER_05:Oh no, no, we we're actually literally working to get the interest rates to go up to keep you longer as well. That's part of that fine.
SPEAKER_06:Good job. I fixed mine then. So that that tactic won't work. Yeah, no, it's good. Yeah, I mean, it's I didn't I'd I mean it's been 25 years since I've moved out, so I'd forgotten how terrifying, exhilarating, and exasperating it was in equal measure.
SPEAKER_05:Oh, how is it clearer? And did you get rid of a lot of stuff because you brought absolutely everything? Yeah, but higher van.
SPEAKER_06:Uh also just forgotten, I didn't know that actually, because I've never done it before. How complicated it is to get a higher van and then arrange to go to a like municipal tip. They they variously think that you are either some kind of fly tipper or um an industrial waste disposal man in a van and that you're kind of pulling a fast one. So you have to have all your higher papers with you and things like that. It's yeah, can I can I see your papers, please, as you go into the tip? But I made six runs to the tip over three days, and it was quite a big van. And you know, in 25 years, you store a ridiculous amount of rubbish.
SPEAKER_05:And what was the thing that you were most torn about whether to keep or trash?
SPEAKER_06:Oh, so probably my desktop grinder in the workshop. Is it an app? No, no, no, no, no, no. No, that's a thing that's a that's a physical set of spinning wheels for the purposes of uh removing metal. And yeah, it's my promised myself I'd get a new one. And in the end, I couldn't couldn't bring myself to part with it. So it's now set on the floor of the new garage.
SPEAKER_05:You never know when the grinders always come in useful.
SPEAKER_06:It's it will stay there because then we're going to buy a new one, and I'll get moaned at for not getting rid of it in the first place. Well, Lee, it's great to be back. It is absolutely on with a podcast.
SPEAKER_00:Lee David and Willem Roberts are the two IPs in the pod, and you are listening to a podcast on intellectual property brought to you by the Chattered Institute of Platinum Attorney.
SPEAKER_06:Well, today uh we're taking a look at the new EQE. That's exciting stuff to be talking about. We have Julia Grupt with us and Chris Mercer, both well established in the EPI and well connected in terms of the EQE and the EQE Secretariat and all things EPO. Uh Julia, Chris, warm welcome to you both. Julia, do you want to introduce yourself first?
SPEAKER_01:Thanks, Lee. Yeah, no, I'm partner at Aquileard Lee's, but the educational background comes from um setting up the PEB, which some people may not thank me for now they're doing their UK exams, but hopefully we're trying to make it as fair as possible. And after 10 years doing the joint examination board, followed by the patent examination board, I focused more on the EQE side and moved across to becoming chair of the professional education committee for EPI, which I appreciate is a mouthful. And as a consequence of that, got involved in the complete overhaul of the EQE as we went into COVID.
SPEAKER_06:I think it would be quite right to say a big, big thank you for all that you do around education for formerly for CEPA, but now uh in relation to the EQE, it's uh I know it's a huge commitment. So uh yeah, big thanks for that. Chris, just in case there's anyone out there who doesn't know who you are, do you want to introduce yourself?
SPEAKER_04:Yeah, hello. Uh yes, I'm I'm now uh a retired person, sort of, but I have been uh involved in matters education for a long time. And uh what people again will most hate me for was I pro I was deeply involved in the drafting of the previous version of the IPRE and the REE, so the rules for uh the EQE, and I've had a strong interest in uh all matters educational, and unfortunately Lee made me be the lead name on the Mercer review. So um I've done quite a lot on education all the way through. I do an awful lot of um uh tutorials for everything you can think of. So I've always had a big interest in anything to do with education.
SPEAKER_06:Yeah, no, apologies to the Mercer Review thing. I remember the conversation well, and it was important that it had an eminent name attached to it, and I couldn't think of any more eminent. So uh Gwinnam, you're obviously you've been through the qualification system. I know it was quite some time ago. Uh, so you'll be familiar with the the EQEs as was. But I imagine, like me, you're quite excited to find out about what the new system's gonna look like.
SPEAKER_05:I am. I thought I mean I've always been a um well, first of all, to echo the thanks for Julia and Chris for just the astonishing amounts for our education. It takes people who really care to do it, and it's something that I think the well, the European profession slash UK profession benefits from hugely in terms of being competitive, providing all that good service. So getting that one down straight away is really important. Um, and I think the exams when I took them really quite a long time ago, both the British and the Euros in the mid-90s, um, they were exacting back then. Uh, but I'm what I'm confident of is that you know the standards stay high, but obviously things have changed. And so, probably my first question, if I'm only, is to kind of what's occasioned change? Why, why, why it was working before, why why are we changing it? Everyone will be asking that.
SPEAKER_01:It's that dreaded before times and after times occasioned by COVID, really, is what prompted it. But I think it had been in people's minds beforehand. So with COVID, we had to stop the EQEs at very short notice because you couldn't get a thousand people together, even if it was spread over all of the European countries. And so, you know, there were maybe 10, 20 venues that had to stop and move online at very short notice. And our exams, which were designed 44 years ago, were not really fit for purpose for the online environment. So that was a big catalyst, but to be honest, it had been in people's minds for some time before then.
SPEAKER_04:Yeah, I think you know, one of the things that was already in people's minds, and in particular because of paper C, was just that the time that everybody had to spend doing the exams. I can't remember how long paper C eventually got, but at one stage I think it was seven hours. And so that sort of burden was something which was just getting ridiculous. So that was another a big factor.
SPEAKER_01:Yes, I sat paper C when it was six hours in person with the last, just before it went down to one language. And then with it had got down to five hours, which is still an acceptable length for sitting in one place doing an exam. But then the reintroduction online meant it got split into two three-hour exams, so back up to six hours. And clearly this is not sustainable for an education system in the future.
SPEAKER_05:Well, the exams aren't they're not a test of endurance. EQES, let's say, Oh, I've got a TV show, EQ EQE, who dares wins. That's about that. Apart from that though, so so do you want to take us through the kind of the new structure? I mean, obviously, we've been through a phase having the preliminary EQEs and everything else. So what's what's the what's the whole story now?
SPEAKER_01:So the idea behind the framework now is to make it a more gradual step through the profession. So you have an exam that you can be eligible for after just one year in the profession. That's called paper F, stands for foundation. And then after another year, you can take another set of papers, M1 and M2, which are meant to be another layer along the journey. And then finally, yeah, after three years of professional training, as you had with the previous set of exams, you can take the final two exams. And the the whole pathway is designed to start with more foundational knowledge, moving through, building the skills and building to advising the clients. So that's the general framework now.
SPEAKER_05:Uh oh, I mean, I know that there's always been a kind of a slight bias as the language requirements have decreased, it's got easier. But there's always been it's always been a bit easier if you're a native speaker, I think, in one of the exam languages. Um has that been factored in as well? We've got what, 40 countries with candidates here? Are we looking after the whole pan-European profession?
SPEAKER_04:Well, I was gonna say we we still have the requirement that the papers are only in English, French, and German. And you can use your native language in the exam. So there is an allowance for people who do not have a mother tongue of English, French, or German. It's not often used. I mean, the the most you normally get is uh a script in one of the uh EPC languages with suddenly a word in the native language where they can't work out what the translation is. But the you know, it there is an allowance, but it's not very much used.
SPEAKER_01:And can I just add, yes, we do sit the exam in our native language, but the exam certainly for the last few years hasn't been written with much involvement from native language speakers. And a really positive step forward in the last year is that we have now an English member of the exam board. So that's the equivalent of like the governance board at it at Pebb, who is um based in UK. It's Liz Elmhurst who gave her presentation on one of the new exams with me. So, because sometimes actually I think we can overthink what's written in the papers and we can see more than one meaning, which was not what was intended by the question writers who were familiar with how it's been translated into German and French as well. So it is a massive advantage, I think, being a native speaker, but it occasionally has its quirks.
SPEAKER_05:And you've you've I think both apologized at some point for being involved in the education system, but I think actually obviously that's not the correct thing, and we're delighted that you've done it. But who else is involved in the decision making for all of this? Uh, there's obviously a panel of people who've looked at it, made it, put in the foundation, put in this kind of evolution of exams. Who I'm guessing EPO is involved. Maybe who else is involved?
SPEAKER_04:Basically, um the uh the main thing, the REE, uh the so that's the the top-level rules, are decided on by the administrative council of the EPO. So actually right at the top. But to get to that draft of the REE, we had a joint working group between the EPO and EPI, who did an absolutely tremendous job. They were uh you know really, really active on that. And below that you've got the IPRE. And although those are decided by the examination supervisory board, so they don't have to be seen by the administrative council, they were all developed at the same time by the same working group doing that. Um the only way you ever get those through all the levels, and in particular through the admin council, is basically if the EPI and EPO agree and basically say yes, we think this is good, and then the admin council will vote yes. So there's an awful lot of work carried out uh by lots of people to firstly get EPI to agree. Um, and in particular, we had an extraordinary EPI council meeting, and I use extraordinary in every possible sense of the word, where you know, I think I I don't remember anywhere near as many motions per square inch as there were during that. So it there was an awful lot of work by lots of people, some you know up there in lights, and a lot of people uh whose names you know are not very well known, but they did an awful lot of work to get this whole package together and eventually through the admin council.
SPEAKER_01:And just to reinforce that, and I think a lot of people think that the EQE comes from the EPO, and very definitely it couldn't happen without the EPO supporting it from a computing and administrative side, because they do that function. But it is definitely an EPO EPI project with most of the examination marking done by EPI members, so European patent attendance like you, me and and Chris Gwillem. And um, a lot of the exam setting is done also by EPI members, although the EPO is also involved in the exam setting as well. And just to mention that extraordinary council meeting, it was online, it ran over by several hours, and I had to leave because I had to board a plane. I'd sat at the airport listening to quite a lot of it, and it and then just had to had to um as I was standing there waiting for my passport and boarding car to be checked, I finally decided I did actually have to drop out of that meeting. But it was a very heated meeting. A lot of questions asked about why we were implementing the new EQE system and and what the benefits to the profession were. So maybe we could come up, we should come on to the detail.
SPEAKER_05:I was going to actually, yeah, I was exactly going to ask next to give us a flavor for the kind of the content of the different levels of exam.
SPEAKER_01:So I think the the most important thing is that the standard is the same at the end. So the final three-year exam is intended to be the same level overall as as what we've always had previously. And actually, we're not allowed to say this because the EPO don't like it, do they, Chris? It's really what's happened is all the skills that were tested and have been tested for decades have sort of been thrown up in the air and scattered back down in a slightly different place. But they're they are all there, and and candidates are doing the same sorts of things that they've been doing that you did in the 90s, Gwillam, and I did in the 2000s. So um hopefully that gives some comfort. Did you want to add anything, Chris?
SPEAKER_04:I think the only thing that I might add is that they have actually modernized it in a sense, in that uh, if you think about it, there was almost nothing about what happens if you go to appeal, uh, apart from in you know the legal paper. But now there are there's a possibility that you might have to draft a response to an appeal statement or something like that. Uh so it it does cover much more, you know, not much more, but it covers more than uh the previous uh exams, but only in a sort of fairly technical sense. The actual skills that you're going to need are exactly the same. Um, it's just that you might have to apply them in a different place.
SPEAKER_05:And so those three stages, is it the case that at each stage uh a review of your abilities across all the relevant skills, but more and more difficult? Or do they split them up between the different stages? For example, oppositions. Did you touch on opposition three times, or do you just do an opposition paper at the end, something like that?
SPEAKER_01:So you do touch on all of the knowledge at all stages, and the skills are built in gradually. And by skills we mean the ability to analyze the information and give advice, but it is across the whole range. So even in the first paper F, there are some legal questions which would focus on the sort of fundamentals of novelty and procedure. But there are also claim analysis questions, so looking at some claims, maybe looking at a bit of priority, but it would all be very short, self-contained information that you can read and pass quickly, and then the questions are around novelty and clarity at that first stage. Maybe a very basic question on inventive step, but you know, very basic. So yes, it's the whole range at each stage. Year two, you bring in more um skills, knowledge as well, but it so and it's difficult because and we're still working out how to best express this and bring the documentation forwards, is but the intention is it's the sort of material that people could handle after two years in the profession. So probably more focused on amendment in terms of the practical skills, but you would be looking at all aspects of normal team venture step. And as Chris said, it could be potentially amendment in relation to some third-party observations or amendment in relation to an opposition or in an appeal. So not very limited to the the way it has been in the past.
SPEAKER_05:And in terms of kind of preparing for it, is there is there was always kind of training through the EPO and of course at the firm level and various courses, have there been changes to the the training program or the resources available, or um are we is it still basically self-driven?
SPEAKER_04:There will still be lots of um resources. I mean, EPI is already doing um course on uh various bits of the EQE, um, as are lots of other people preparing to do them. Um so it's all developing uh as we go along. The the main problem at the moment for anybody who's trying to do any preparation is there is very little material to work with because there are obviously no past papers. There are example papers around, and there are further, well, you know, not example, but uh things that would be papers if they could be. Um so there there is preparation being done, and so people are working very hard at putting together uh educational materials. So on at that level, there's not as much as perhaps anyone would like. Uh, but I'm sure it will develop very quickly. And you know, those people who are providing courses have within their organization people who were involved in the whole thing, and so they will be able to tailor the courses they are providing uh to deal with that. I think the biggest problem may be for uh people in smaller firms, smaller where there probably would have been no involvement in the development of this. I think they will probably still be able to do very good education as long as they did just about the same thing that they did for the EQE anyway, because as Julia said, the content is the same, it's just going to appear in different places.
SPEAKER_01:Sorry, can I just add one very important thing that hasn't changed but came to light again this year? Is that there's two things to think about for the EQEs. One is registering your training, whether that's training with a professional who's already a qualified EPA, which is probably 98% of candidates, or whether you're doing that much rarer but still used route of working directly for an employer. You have to register your training. You then enrol for exams. We don't talk about in the EQE system, it's just semantics, as we're well aware with in our profession. Words that have an ordinary English meaning can then be used in context to have a very specific meaning. You register your training and you enroll for the exams, and you need to have registered your training as soon as possible, and certainly before a cutoff date, which is a long time before you actually need to think about enrolling for the exam.
SPEAKER_04:Yeah, everybody needs to know that as soon as they join the profession, they should register for the EQE, even if it's on the day you join your first employment, register for the EQE.
SPEAKER_06:It's always exciting when we get a surprise guest on the podcast. Uh and and we've got surprise guests now. So Debbie Slater has joined us. Debbie is uh TIFA council member and chair of CEPA's education committee. Hey Debbie, welcome to the podcast.
SPEAKER_02:Yes, patent attorney, understanding member of the profession, and council member, and as you say, chair of the education committee. I've been involved with the education committee probably for well over 10 years now, so a reasonable length of time. I have a passion for education, having taken time out of being a patent attorney to train as a high school teacher, to follow my father's footsteps. He was a maths and a P teacher in the day. So when I was a little girl, I used to line up my teddies and teach them using a blackboard and a piece of chalk.
SPEAKER_06:So maybe we stop there. Let's not go too far too fast, too far into charge of memories. So yeah, welcome to the podcast. Just to bring up today, we've talked we've talked a little bit about the history. So what happened previously, why the changes, we've we've not got deep into the new structure, which I think is probably the place to go in a moment. But I don't know if you wanted to say something about the role that Education Committee has had in kind of watching the development of the EQE and the stuff that you've been involved in.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, so I mean, as the name says, the Education Committee is involved in a lot of things educational. And we're going through a period of um change, I think, in regards to education and training, both with the EQEs and with the IPREC education review. So what we're trying to do is the committees to be involved with both of those and perhaps to bring all the strands together because they, you know, with not unique probably, but the profession has these two strands of education and training that they need to go through, both the Us and the UK exam. So I think as a as a committee, what we try to do is provide a way to provide feedback to the various bodies that are involved in the qualification process and to bring the specificate, to bring the strands together and encourage people, the wider membership, to become involved in this, because I think it's it's very important to be able to ensure that people are involved in education and training have the information and the support that they need for this, because we do need support members of the profession who are involved in training new entrants to the profession so that they can they can help develop the candidates and the trainees' understanding of the profession and what they need to do to progress their career. So I suppose, yeah, we're we're there as a sort of central point, I suppose, and hopefully to be able to bring things together and disseminate information and facilitate people to have a say.
SPEAKER_06:We've thought a lot about how the change impact on candidate students, but maybe not enough on how it impacts on those that support them and and and help them through their training.
SPEAKER_02:I think it I think it's it's a very important aspect because I I think for a lot of people who have been around the profession and who would like to support trainees perhaps feel a bit worried about doing that because they're not quite sure how to do it. They themselves will have been trained, but they maybe want to be able to do it differently or have there's a different set of circumstances. So it's I think it's a really important part of this is to support the trainer. Yes, definitely.
SPEAKER_06:Yeah, that's a good that's a good point. So, Chris, Julia, if I could kind of come back to you. If that's okay, if I continue. Yeah. So the thing we've not done yet is to talk too much about the structure of the new system. And I know that's going to be quite difficult without the ability to put up charts uh and talk through graphics and so on. And I know there's been some really good stuff, Julia, particularly on that. Could you give could you give us a little overview of of what the new qualification looks like in terms of its structure?
SPEAKER_01:Yes. So in paper F, this is um uh a fully automatically marked paper. So it has a series of questions which you can answer without giving a free text um, sorry, you don't need a free text answer. So they're not all multiple choices. So I'm struggling not to use the word multiple choice, because we all have horrors, or those of us who've taught the pre-exam are not particularly enamoured of multiple choice questions as they've been implemented at some points during the the EQE. So there may be just some straightforward multiple choice questions, there may be some other question formats, drag and drop, other things which are handled automatically in the examination system, which is called WiseFlow. And the the same styles of questions can be used both for the legal questions in part one and then, as I said, for the the claims analysis questions. So it's more flexible, the multiple choice, but it's all going to be marked automatically. So the results are available a few weeks after the exam is actually sapped in March. Then we move on to the next set of papers, M1 and M2, where part of the exam will probably continue to be automatically marked, but the second part of the examination will be a free text answer. So for M1, which is testing the skills, that at the moment is going to be like a mini paper B for those of you familiar with B, i.e. a mini amendment paper. And by mini, what we mean is it'll just have a smaller amount of information so that all the words will be fewer, it'll be simpler technology, and what you're actually asked to do will also be broken down and explained rather than just sort of prepare a response. You'll be given a breakdown of what you're expected to do and how many marks each section will have. Then for M2, which is the legal paper, in 2026, so that's the next session, that will be very similar to the old style D1. In fact, it will be the old style D1 paper, which is the short legal questions and short text answers, where you have to give the basis. It'll be it will actually be exactly the same exam, minus one question, and then it will evolve in 2027 and beyond. And then finally for the third year, M3 and M4. I'll do M4 first because that's the easier of the two. That will be basically like part two of D. So it'll be a longer legal analysis question with various things going on. You have to break down the information, work out what's gone right, what's gone wrong, what the client's position is, and then give advice accordingly. The reason I've left M3 till the end is because this is the the mammoth paper, which has a part A, a part B and a part C. Although strictly speaking, I think we're supposed to call them part one, two, and three, because we're not meant to refer to them as the amend the drafting paper A, i.e. part A, the amendment paper, i.e. part B, and the opposition paper part C. But effectively that's what it is. So the first part of the paper you'll be writing a patent application, some claims or some part of a patent application. The second part you will be defending some claims that you're already written, and then sorry, and and in the third part you will be attacking. So something like an opposition, but as Chris mentioned, it could be later in the opposition stage, it could be part of an appeal process, or maybe even dealing with some TPOs or something that've come in. So there's more flexibility in the in the the three parts.
SPEAKER_06:Even I understood that, but I've been talking about it for a long time now, so you would hope that I would, wouldn't you? Chris, do you want to add do you want to add anything to that from your perspective?
SPEAKER_04:Well, I think the only thing that we haven't mentioned is all eggs in one basket approach. In theory, this is set up, as Julian said, that you do uh a graduated approach, you start at year end of year one and take F, and end of year two, you take M1 and M2, and then the end of year three, you take M3 and M4. And you don't have to take them actually like that. You can you have to take in most circumstances F first, but then you take uh you can take the other ones in order or spread them out. But there is the all eggs in one basket. You can take all of M1, 2, M4 in one fell swoop and not take paper F, which sounds a good idea. Oh, miss out on the exam. The big drawback with that is that if you fail any one of those papers, you have to uh go back, resit that paper, and also take paper F as well. So that's uh how confident are you feeling sort of thing. So it's a nice idea, but I wonder whether anybody will want to uh follow that route. I've got that right in my Julia.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, yes, more or less. It's just you might you may or may not have to resit paper F, depending on what combination of the papers of M1 to M4 you pass on the first sitting. And please don't ask me to give any more information than that because I've been through it and I'll probably say it incorrectly because yeah, it's because there's a mix of legal and and practical questions in all of the papers, and so not all combinations give you the exemption, if you like, from taking F, but some do. So yeah, and I think the other thing that's worth mentioning is well, there's two things. One, we have finally moved away from a fixed pass mark of whether it was 70% for the pre-exam or 50%, and the pass mark will be set between a range, there is a range, um, and it depends on which paper they're looking at, and will be set based on the performance of the candidates in that paper. And by that, I don't just mean a bell curve will be looked at, although that might be obviously looked at as a sanity check, but it's more did the questions perform how they were expected? Because obviously the questions can only be tested on qualified people. We can't use guinea pigs who haven't yet sat the Exam as before they're actually going to sit the exam three three weeks. And so there are sometimes, inevitably, in any examination system, some questions that don't quite perform how or candidates interpret the question differently and and write a different answer. So this gives the flexibility to set the pass mark based on what is a reasonable pass rather than being fixed constrained by the fixed pass mark and then having to adjust the marking to fit the pass mark. So that that's an important change. And then the other important change was with M3, where you have the three skills drafting amendment, and let's call it opposition, although as I say it it might be slightly broader than that. They're tested at the same time. The three parts of the paper are shorter than the very definitely shorter than the sum of A to C, as they currently are. I think it's probably at least half the length of time. I can't remember exact numbers. But that's because some of those skills have already been tested in F, M1 and M2, but also because the paper is constructed in a way that avoids the duplication of testing of the same skills. So at the moment, as we know, added subject matter can be a really important thing that you need to analyse for amendment and opposition. But you don't necessarily need to be analysed on it twice or assessed on it twice in the same year. Same with novelty and eventually. Same concepts come up time and time again in all three papers. So the idea is to be more efficient over the three papers and avoid unnecessary duplication. That's not to say that there won't be some duplication because some skills are really core, but you won't be doing the same thing multiple times. Like sometimes it fills with paper C, Chris, doesn't it? I've seen you mark those paper C's, and it's like yeah, keeping the will to live while you're writing your fourth inventive step attack. Is it a challenge?
SPEAKER_05:So that thank you. Thanks for that. That's that's that's really clear. I just think it's just the different constituencies kind of affected by this. Obviously, there's these the trainees themselves. I think there's lots of information we've stunned for them there. There's the firms or industries kind of handling it. I think again they're gonna they have a feel here for some of the tips. And we've touched a little bit on the other one, but let's just talk a bit more about that. So the majority of people actually involved the trainers, not trainees, probably. Statistically, that kind of makes sense. What's the biggest message? What's the biggest change trainers need to think about, maybe in addition to the login training that you mentioned already?
SPEAKER_04:Well, I would have thought the main thing to do is say, as Juga did, we are testing the same skills. So if you can do any of the past papers and you would have passed the pay those past papers, you will have the right skills. But they're not going to come up exactly as you see them now. They could come up in many different forms. So just be, you know, don't be surprised by the unexpected, because it's almost expected.
SPEAKER_01:And I think what's important as well, there are some webinars and sessions which are targeted purely for the tutors. And I think sometimes they get overlooked or trainees attend them rather than tutors. And I don't think it's necessarily a bad thing that trainees are there, but but the trainers could also be there. So, for example, last a few weeks ago, Liz and I did a a session on M1 and what to expect in the first edition of M1, which is coming up in 2026. Um and as I mentioned, Liz Elmost is the UK member on the exam board, and she actually has responsibility for M1. So hearing what she thinks about it is really useful. Obviously, she can't tell you what's going to be on the paper. That would be too nice, wouldn't it? But um, she can give us a good indication of the types of topics and the level of the topics that are going to be examined. So we had that and that's recorded, and you can go back and look at that. But also, and I think this I I'm gonna say I didn't know that this was a as big and important meeting as it was when I was tutoring um until I got my other title, is there's an EQE tutors meeting, which is held annually, it just was last week. It isn't recorded, unfortunately, but I don't think the UK tutors are as represented as they could be at that meeting. It's quite intense, it goes on for two half days where all of the exam boards present on their paper that happened in March and answer questions on it. Um, and this year we had breakout sessions and we also had dedicated sessions on the new papers. And in fact, the breakout rooms for A and B. No one really wanted to talk about last year's A and B because I've only got one more left anyway, haven't we? The conversation was very definite about what's happening and how are these skills going to be tested next year. So I think it's I know it's too late now to say you should have gone to that meeting last week, but next year it will be even more important because we'll be talking about the first year of all of the new modules in 2027. So I think it could be a really engaging meeting to go to.
SPEAKER_02:I think this is where the institute has an important role to play in terms of disseminating information about these sorts of things, because you know the the informals are very well connected in terms of being able to get information out to fellow candidates. But as I said not that long ago, you know, supporting the trainers is also very important to give them the skills and the information so that they can support their candidates and provide them with the right information. So I think that's a big role that the Education Committee and the Institute can play in terms of networking into what's available and then passing it on to them, and something that you know we can definitely work at. So that'll be certainly part of my role will be to make sure that I can try and make sure that um we we do as the same network in and give people that information.
SPEAKER_06:Because that's one of my jobs on the podcast, is to try and keep us to a reasonable length of time. I think I I'm usually quite successful. I suspect we could keep on talking forever about examinations. And Debbie, keeping with you maybe, first off, although I know that Julia has also had a big, big role to play in this, can we talk exemptions? So um so so in the past, obviously people are used to the fact that you can get exemptions from aspects of the UK qualifying examinations uh once you pass the EQE. And I know that there's been lots of talk of thought about what that might look like in the future. Anything we can share at this moment in time.
SPEAKER_02:Julia and I have spoken a lot about this. And in fact, we have some informal groups of people who are involved in in both the EQEs and the UK SAM system getting together to talk about how we can make this good for people. I think I think the underlying principle is that we want to keep the exemptions if we can, and there should be no reason why you can't, but there has to be a process and that needs to be done through formally. And obviously, IPREG and the PEB are part of that process. I'm hopeful that we can get an exemption, but I think you know we do have to go through a process, the exams have changed, and so we need to make sure that we are dotting the I's and crossing the T's. We now have some mock papers that have been issued, so we get a feel for particularly M3, which is the paper that's most significant for the exemptions. So at least we can we now have sight of at least one mock paper, but it's definitely work in progress, but something that is important. I mean, Julia, what would you well?
SPEAKER_01:I think there's I think you've got to distinguish between two types of exemptions. There's the exemption from passing the EQE as a whole, and there was a recent announcement that that will not change. So if a candidate passes the whole EQE, which it for many UK candidates is on their first sitting, but I don't want to put pressure on candidates, often it might take two or three sittings, but UK candidates are generally successful in passing the EQE after one or a small number of attempts. If in that case, you would then carry the exemptions, the plan is that they're going to carry forward. What is still up for debate and needs further analysis is the individual paper-by-paper exemptions that we've grown used to over the last decade or longer, where if you had A, you didn't have to do drafting in the UK or FD2 as it is now, and B in Europe meant you didn't have to do FD3 in the UK system. Those individual mappings have not yet been done because we didn't have the mock M3 to look at. We only had very basic information about what M3 would consider. We now have the mock M3, but we literally landed last week or the week before last. So there's a piece of work to be done.
SPEAKER_02:So I think the message has to be please don't stress about it. There's a process to be gone through. The will is there to keep those exemptions. And I think that's the underlying message that we have at present. But again, Julia or Chris, I don't know if you've got any thoughts on that.
SPEAKER_01:Well, and and just to be clear, 2027 is the first time that anyone can sit M3. So we've got time on our side. I know that's not nice for candidates. They want this, they want the um, they want to know now, but it will be done before 2027, July 2027, which is when the first EQE candidates would be coming through with their passes in M3.
SPEAKER_02:But it's certainly on the radar and it's certainly been considered. It's it's not something that's been put on the back burder. But as Julia said, you know, at the moment the status quo is is happening. So please be assured that you know it's something that's been worked on and looked at.
SPEAKER_06:Thanks for that update. So I'm gonna draw us to a close now, unless there are any kind of final remarks.
SPEAKER_01:Well, the only other thing that comes up time and time again, Lee, is the transition provisions because you talked about the link to the UK system, but what about the people who are halfway through the old system? And there, all I can say is it's quite a generous system of allowing you to carry through your passes, but only your passes are not compensable, fail, so marks between 45 to 50 through to the new system and uh avoiding taking um corresponding papers in the new system. So the one thing I think is worth mentioning, as it was mentioned in the EQE Tuesday's meeting, it is quite a generous system, but it's once you start claiming the exemptions, it it's five years, it doesn't last forever. So it's not going to be that if you took and passed paper C in I don't know, 2020, it's still going to be valid in 2025, in 35. So, you know, you you do need to crack on and get qualified.
SPEAKER_06:Yeah, understood. I thanks all. If you've been on the podcast before you've listened to the podcast, you will know that we always try and end with some kind of tangential closer where I surprise Gwillam with a question and then we surprise you with it as well. So, Gillam, I've got one. Um I'm gonna I I wanted to stick with the education theme and qualifications or examinations. So I would like you to share with me, us, if you will, the examination or qualification that you are most proud of. What gives you the greatest pride in your life? But um, try and stay away from the normal kind of run-on-the-mill academic stuff that you can.
SPEAKER_05:Oh, it's got a fire safety certificate. I had the most brilliant time afternoon training when I was at I didn't go on the show, but years and years ago, to be one of the fire wardens, and we got to fire fire extinguishers into big things of water covered in petrol, and there's like flames everywhere. And I got my certificate for that, and uh it's the only one I had on the wall. That's my answer. Have you ever had a clear funnel? No, I mean you've got to use the right, I mean you've got to sit there for quite long deliberately which extinguisher to use. I remember that much, but I forget the answer, just to be careful. Yeah. So no, I I wouldn't, you wouldn't want you wouldn't want me near a fire after all that.
SPEAKER_06:Chris, how about you? You must have a long list of accomplishments. What's your what's your standout?
SPEAKER_04:Oh my I think my my favorite one, not necessarily standout, is uh I qualified as a uh what's it called, passenger vehicle driver, so that I can take patients from a hospital uh on trips. Um so I had to do a you know a rather extensive driving test on a very big van, and I much enjoyed that. And I like the yeah, it's a really good thing to do. The old PSP is a very good thing. It's not quite that's a passenger service vehicle, but yeah, because I I'm not allowed to charge people for my services.
SPEAKER_01:Well, I've still started, and it's actually nothing that I can claim credit for if I'm honest. It's but it's now my children are going through the process of learning to drive. The the difference between the license they get and the license I got just before the rules changed back in the the 90s is quite incredible. I can drive a 310 lorry according to my license. Would you want me to do that? Hell no. And more, I think it's a lorry with a trailer. There's no way I could drive that. Not even if I needed to go to the tip multiple times, Lee, like you did. And I'm not sure they'd believe you if you turn up with a lorry of that size that you've actually hired it, have they?
SPEAKER_06:Yeah, that recognise that entirely. Yeah, have that conversation with my children.
SPEAKER_02:Well, I'll I'll continue on that theme, I think. It took me five goes to get my driving license. I tried twice when I was working at the EPO in The Hague and failed both times. Sorry, no, I took it three times and failed in Hague. Then I decided to go back to the UK and do one of these quick courses, you know, and I failed again and then and then passed on the retail. I was really pleased that I'd got it because I was just about to start a new job as an in-house patent manager for Vickers and I had a company car. So I needed to be able to drive to have the company car. So the first time I'd ever driven a car on my own was when I picked up my rover from the British Leyland garage in crew, and I managed to crash it three days later. Apparently, the quickest claim on an insurer at figures at the time between starting work. And in fact, I hadn't even started work. I just so yeah, yeah. Passing my driving test anyway was quite an accomplishment for me.
SPEAKER_05:So thank you, Debbie, and everyone. Um now it's my turn to ask Lee. I'm gonna can I guess first though, Lee? You've got you'll have an you've I know you always have an answer before you put your questions in because that's your that's your cheat. But um, I'm gonna is it about fish? No. What is what is your what is your favourite surprise qualification, Lee?
SPEAKER_06:First of all, let me just make a comment, if I may, and that's that it was interesting that you all talked about things that are both knowledge and competence based. So that that was just an interesting observation I'll I'll take from that. And mine is the same, it's the very first qualification I got out outside of, I don't know, maybe a certificate you might have got at first school or middle school back in the day when that's what they were called. Uh so when I was 15, so before I'd taken any qualifications at school, I qualified as a football referee. Totally randomly, I just thought it'd be an interesting thing to do. Went along to the upstairs of a pub, which was where the the course was held for about 10, 12 weeks, did a few practical sessions running around whistling and stuff like that. Uh, qualified as a football referee, did it a couple of times, terrified me, the abuse that I got, never did it again.
SPEAKER_05:I've seen a local game um just in the park, and somebody just punched the referee, knocked him flat.
SPEAKER_06:It looks, yeah, that was bravely. That was brave. Yeah, it was I don't think I had any idea what I was having for it, just when I was, oh, this seems like a good idea.
SPEAKER_01:It wasn't it's a nice little urner for teenagers when my kids were growing up. The um teenagers were doing it. But I think if you're a teenager doing younger children, then it's perhaps not so abusive. Well, yeah, we try not to be.
SPEAKER_06:I've run, I've run I I have so many children, particularly boys. I spent 25 plus years running the line. So I did use my skills, but in a linesman capacity, and that was scary enough. And even with young children, parents can be terrifying. So I think we're gonna have to draw it to a conclusion there, Gillem. I I need to remember what we used to do in the old days when we were doing podcasts previously, and that's to say, if you've listened to this and found it as enjoyable hearing it as we have uh recording it, then leave us a little review somewhere, and that'll enable people to find us. Chris, Julia, Debbie, thank you so much for joining us. And Gwillem, I will see you on the next one.
SPEAKER_02:Bye bye, everybody.