Two IPs In A Pod
Brilliant inventions, fresh product designs, iconic brand names and artistic creativity are not only the building blocks of successful business - they deliver a better world for us all. But these valuable forms of intellectual property must be protected in order to flourish. We are the Chartered Institute of Patent Attorneys - the UK's largest intellectual property organisation. Our hosts Lee Davies and Gwilym Roberts chat with entrepreneurs, creatives, patent attorneys and the occasional judge about how patents, trade marks, designs and copyright can improve our lives and solve problems for humanity.
Two IPs In A Pod
Inside The EPO with Heli Pihlajamaa: Paperless Plans, Unitary Patent, And How Rules Get Made
Ever wondered who actually turns evolving case law and global agreements into the rules you use every day? We sit down with Heli Pihlajamaa, Principal Director of Patent Law and Procedures at the EPO, for a candid tour of how European patent law is shaped, tested, and delivered at scale. From examiner guidance to implementing regulations and user consultation, Heli opens the black box of decision‑making and shows how the system stays predictable while technology races ahead.
How are you? You alright? I went a bit a bit to then apologize. I don't know why that was. That's a really bad moment to lose your voice there. I think. Yeah. No, I think I think I'm good. Hang on. Let me just take a sip of tea from my two IPs in a pod mug, which I always have ready. This is why people tune in to listen to Lee Drink. Yeah, it's it's not the most viveting of podcast formats. I'm gonna start, I'm gonna start again just in case we don't want to use any of that. Hey Grillum, how are you, mate?
SPEAKER_02:Fine, I think we should keep the thing we just did. It was great.
SPEAKER_03:Okay, fair fair enough. Fair enough then. And I just must, for the for people who aren't able to watch us online, which is basically everybody, because it's only those of us who are here today that can see us, it does in fact look like you are sat in Joe 90's chair. And I do need to say that again for full comedic effect. You've got the Joe 90 glasses on, you've got a background that looks like the Joe 90 chair. I imagine that you've got some kind of like jewel keypad on either side of your hands that you can kind of program devices to save the world. And I'm I'm gonna, after this, go to watch some old Joe 90s just to remind myself how good it was.
SPEAKER_02:I think our guest is really, really well versed in British culture, but may not know who Joe 90 is. So for your edification, Ellie, he's a really handsome action star from 80s TV shows, uh, to be very clear. Actually, also culturally relevant. Uh I'm actually basically in a very small sauna. This is one of our pods in the office, and it's really, really good, but it's kind of warm. And so, yeah, I'm gonna be a very kind of slightly sweaty Joe 90 by the end of this.
SPEAKER_03:That's exactly what we're here. So, uh you got any pants, or uh have we just done it?
SPEAKER_02:I know you've got four million lights, but you've now got a very large house. Did they go all the way around it?
SPEAKER_03:I don't go all the way around yet, but they will when I finish it off this weekend because the weather, the weather the weekend just got on was horrific. So I only managed to get about half the house done, but they will. But as I was explaining to you, I made a fatal mistake, which was I've put lots of kind of tinkly, jingly, jangly bright white LED lights up. And for convenience, I've clipped all of the cables to the same cable that goes around my house that is providing um the broadband and therefore the Wi-Fi. And for the last two days, the Wi-Fi has been entirely unusable, keeps dropping out. And I was sat there last night thinking, what could it possibly be? And then I put two and two together and thought, yeah, it's because some idiot has clipped cables to the to the to the broadband cable, and probably there was some kind of interference going on. So 11 o'clock last night, went outside with my torch, undone all of the cable clips I put on with my little pair of pliers. I've always got the hand, obviously, because I'm a kind of handy kind of guy. And yeah, lo and behold, at the moment I'd taken all of the cables off, the Wi-Fi was working fine again. So there you go.
SPEAKER_02:Your your own compliance nightmare. And how are the neighbours? How are the neighbours finding this massive glowing house suddenly in the lovely, peaceful neighbourhood?
SPEAKER_03:So that's a very good question because someone mucked up the timer on the first night. So I put them on live for the first time on Saturday night, and and I managed to get the timer set to come on for seven days at the same time. But when I did the going off time, I hadn't realized that it was only on Friday. So I'd effectively set them to come on Saturday evening and not go off again till Friday. And yeah, and and we did have we did have neighbours Sunday morning saying to us, are you gonna keep those lights on all night? Well they you're gonna get you're gonna get petrol bombs. What have you done? But yeah, no, so I I need to get a very long ladder and finish doing my lights, and I'll do it this weekend if it's not too wet. But it was yeah, it was just the weather was really horrible last weekend, so I didn't manage to get it all done.
SPEAKER_02:If anyone thinks they can see the northern lights coming from Daniel Wade's not the northern lights, it's your house.
SPEAKER_03:But the tree is up, but if you can see the tree is up. What? It certainly is, isn't it? The tree is up. That doesn't work well on a podcast, does it? It doesn't work well in real life either, just for the you know, for the record. But you've just you've just gasped in terrific admiration, which I appreciate. Thank you very much. That was the gasp.
SPEAKER_00:Lee Davis and Willem Roberts are the two IPs in a pod, and you will listen to a podcast on intellectual property brought to you by the Chartered Institute of Pattern Attorneys.
SPEAKER_03:Hey, home with the podcast, eh? Yes, crack on with the show. Hi, Halley. Welcome to the podcast. How are you?
SPEAKER_01:Hi Lee, thank you. I'm very fine, and I have been listening to you and uh Quillem to talk about lights and Norton lights. Uh so uh I would very much like to see a photo, how your house looks like with all the Christmas lights outside. In Munich, it there are the Christmas markets, but otherwise the sun is shining, it's warm, and it doesn't look much like Christmas.
SPEAKER_03:We were over in Munich a couple of weeks ago, Gwillam, weren't we? Actually, it's probably three weeks ago now, wasn't it? It did it did feel unseasonably um warm there. Uh uh I was normally like Munich in November because it feels proper Christmasy, but it didn't.
SPEAKER_01:There was a short Christmas uh period uh with a little bit colder weather, but now it's back to sunshine again. All the snow is melting on the on the Alps.
SPEAKER_03:But of course, climate change and global warming and all those kinds of things aren't real, so it can't be any of that. We don't do controversy though, Gwillam, do we? So um we'd probably say no more about that.
SPEAKER_02:I think the lights in your local neighborhood probably are a controversy, but there we go.
SPEAKER_03:So shall we crack on? Willem, do you want to do a little bit of driving? Because I know you and Helly have worked together for uh kind of a good number of years now, haven't you?
SPEAKER_02:Happy to kick off. Hi, Heli, nice to see you. And yeah, I think we first met. Uh you spoke at a union dinner, I remember, years and years ago. And we've been in touch ever since. And it's always lovely to catch up. In case the listeners don't all know who you are, which is I think unlikely, but you never know. Would you mind kind of introducing yourself and just explaining what your current role is at the EPO?
SPEAKER_01:Thank you, Quillem. With pleasure. My name is Heli Pihlayema. I'm uh Principal Director of Patent Law and Procedures at the EPO. I'm of Finnish nationality, as you certainly will hear from my Nokia Finnish accent. And I have been working at the EPO for quite a long time, but I have some experience from the other fields of patent industry before my time at the EPO. And Quillem, you asked me earlier that I should also explain not only my title but also what I'm doing then actually, or what are my responsibilities at the EPO. And uh yes, uh so it's a list of different things, but the main commonality there is that uh the unit I'm heading is about patent law and procedures. So we give guidance and advice to both the management and the examiners and also the formalities officers about any patent law or EPPCT related uh topics, issues that might come, procedural issues. Of course, that means that we are also drafting the guidelines, revising the guidelines for all the three sets of guidelines. And uh we are also doing that kind of uh special patent law uh or patent grant procedures related tasks like uh the registers of patent attorneys, the register, the register changes, and also the unitary patent uh related tasks of the EPO. What uh you were specially asking me to tell is also that we are representing the president at the enlarged board of appeal when there is a referral pending. We are also drafting the president's comments uh when there is a case at the UPC Court of Appeal or UPC, a first instance court concerning decisions the EPO has taken. And relating to the whole patent grant procedure, this unit is also drafting legal changes to the EPC implementing regulations for adoption by the Administrative Council.
SPEAKER_02:There's loads to go through there actually. Just before we do, you mentioned that you had some experience before. We always like people's stories. So, you know, what do you I don't know this? I don't actually know what you studied at university. Um what was your what did you do before the EPO and what was your kind of uh path through the EPO?
SPEAKER_01:So I have always been, or I have been very long time of my life, I have been a patent nerd. That's what I'm calling myself. And because I started uh with my passion or laugh to patent law already when I was studying law in Finland in Helsinki. And then I have done, I've been at Max Planck Institute, I have worked for the Finnish Patent Office, I have worked for a patent attorney office, I have worked for industry, and during those times uh, and also still when I studied at the EPO, I kept on uh teaching IP law at the um technical university of Helsinki. So many of the Finnish uh engineers uh have learned something about patent law when I was teaching.
SPEAKER_02:You were patent nerd before you studied law.
SPEAKER_01:But during when I started law, I uh I found it uh interesting and fascinating, the whole combination between the technical things and the tech uh the innovation and the innovation aspect, and then combined with the uh principles of law and also the global aspect of patent law, because uh innovation is global. Of course, you cannot have patent law uh that would be different in different countries to in its fundaments and also the long history. So I found it uh very fascinating, and uh yeah, that's why I became a nerd.
SPEAKER_02:Quite unusual. I don't think you're a nerd. I think if that's a derogatory comment, I don't think you're a nerd. If you like being a nerd, you can be a nerd. But um at the at the university, I would have thought it's quite unusual for that to have such a focus on intellectual property. Was it an unusual module or did you choose it?
SPEAKER_01:Oh, um, I had uh quite an inspiring um teacher at the university, and somehow I don't know, of course, it was also the time in Finland when people started to understand a little bit more about the existence of uh IP rights, and so somehow I don't know, I just fell in it. How can you how can you explain uh why you fall for something or somebody? That was it. And then you asked also about my career at the EPO. So actually, I joined the EPO before before Finland uh joined the convention a couple of months earlier because it was already known that Finland will join. I started here as a lawyer and um continuing my nerdy career, I have actually been more or less in the same unit the whole time, at first as a lawyer. Then I was at some point I was also in charge of the uh information services, so the so-called information office. And uh then I was uh team leader, then I was director, and now I'm principal director. And with every step, there has been some additional responsibility.
SPEAKER_02:Well, we've I've bumped into in all kinds of different guises actually over the years. Um I think probably more recently with SAKIPO, the Standing Advisory Committee to the European Patent Office Working Group on guidelines, which I've been I was involved in for quite a few years. And that was fascinating for me to watch a little bit about how the EPO kind of manages the huge amount of law that's evolving all the time in a way that's practical, but also obviously reflects what needs to be done under the EPC. Lawmaking at the EPO is very different to how it's done, for example, under the UK uh common law system. I think it's really interesting. Can you kind of summarize very quickly how how how a change that maybe you or your team recognize can filter all the way up through to a change in the rules, or I guess exceptionally in the convention itself?
SPEAKER_01:Convention itself, its articles, so there uh amend some of the articles of the convention, if it's more than just some time limits in the convention, that uh would require a diplomatic conference of all the 39 contracting states. And however, the EPC implementing rules or the rules relating to fees, or um, so I'll start with them. The let's uh leave the unitary patent regulation on the side for a while. So there, the administrative council, which is composed of uh representatives of all the contracting states, is is competent to adopt uh amendments to the rules. I'm starting from the end and coming back. The administrative council needs uh a majority to adopt uh any uh amendments to the rules, and uh before anything is decided then by the administrative council. The administrative council has uh committees which will discuss any proposals in advance. So there are different committees for different topics, uh financial issues uh or legal issues, so legal patent law related topics go to the patent law committee where those are discussed, and there are also all the contracting states and the observers, which I forgot, are represented there. And uh the contracting states have a voting right uh then also in uh the decisions. Before that, we consult the users, and consultate for the consultation of the users, the offer cell channel is uh Sakepo, what you already mentioned, Quillem, and a standing advisory committee of the EPO, which also has different working parties. Use the you mentioned the SACEPO Working Party guidelines, which uh goes through all the revisions of the guidelines and accompanies the whole process. And now, Quillem, you are also in the Zakepo Working Party on rules, which is discussing uh changes uh to the implementing regulations, and uh which is also uh where also larger uh changes or bigger changes to the procedures are discussed. So then we consult uh the users through Sakebo. But before we get so far, now I'm coming to the starting point. Of course, what uh um why do we do uh changes to the uh rules or why do we do changes to the procedures? There might be different triggers, there might be some case law, for example, a decision from the enlarged board of appeal that uh triggers uh legal change. There might be some international uh legislation, for example, changes in PCT rules or other legal framework that requires us to make uh changes in the implementing um regulations, or there might be some need from the either from the EPO practice side or from the user side that uh requires then also a change in the uh in the rules. Of course, when we see that kind of trigger, then there is a very careful assessment also involving different units in the office, and uh before we even go to the user consultation. We need to know what it what would be the impact, what would it mean? For example, now at the moment uh we are discussing the paperless patent grant procedure and the necessary rule changes for that. And of course, there we have got a lot of feedback from the users, which we are reflecting, and it's not only via Sakepo, also all the other we discuss in different user meetings, we get feedback there, we get the letters, we get mails, we take all the feedback into account too that we get when we have started with the process. And similarly, also as a further trigger for any possible changes, we are also doing consultations in the Sakiapo working party rules, but also there are many other groups where we are hearing users and hearing what is uh an issue and what should be considered, should that be a change or not. And of course, also the contracting states they are coming with proposals uh for changes. I think that that was quite uh mouthful there.
SPEAKER_02:It's really helpful. It's a complex organization. It does fascinate me. I think the because again, the differences between what we're trained up on in the UK with the common law, um, which is where the the the idea of precedent of a case, and once a case is there, you stuck with what the case said and all that kind of thing. Whereas with EPO, it's binding only on the relevant division, um, but afterwards the other, etc. etc. It's it's kind of a guide. So I've always thought the guidelines are a remarkable work in the sense that they are the things that make the they'll have the oil of the EPO that just keep it moving. And when there's a decision that comes out that's confusing everybody, the guidelines help you get through it and give obviously give the examiners a good position, but practitioners equally. And I mean, certainly when I'm training people, I just say, yeah, don't read the case law, read the guidelines. Probably shouldn't. Um, but that's that's kind of the day-to-day reality, my experience. So um, I mean, just just before I move on from that, because I want you raised a whole bunch of other stuff I want to get back to. Uh, out of interest. So, could you want to break down the sort of constituency of the working parties to give people a feel for who's involved in these discussions and consultations?
SPEAKER_01:I'll start from the top uh again because I already mentioned the administrative council and its uh subcommittees where the contracting states are involved, but also the observers. And as observers, we have I mentioned the user organizations that are there, so it's EPI and Business Europe that are represented in the Administrative Council and it's uh and then also the Committee on Patent Law. In Standing Advisory Committee in the SACEPO, uh we have different and we have all um EPI and Business Europe, they nominate their delegates, but we also have other international or European associations that nominate their delegates for those committees, and we have also ad personum members of the SACEPO groups. The Sakiapo groups we have already spoken about too. So Sakiapo on rules, which is for changes in the rules and the bigger changes in the procedure. Then we have Sakebo Guidelines uh group, which uh is discussing the changes for the always the guidelines to come the year after. And then we have SACEPO quality. So the Sakebo rules and guidelines, they have Europe, um the members are European. In Sakebo Quality, we Have also overseas members because, of course, the quality of the European patents is a global issue as well. The applicants come from everywhere. Then we have the e Sakepo, which is discussing uh issues uh related to the online tools and uh the online uh workflows uh with the EPO, and there is also a large participation. And then of course there is a main SACEPO which meets once a year to discuss the largest topics of the year.
SPEAKER_02:Thank you. Um it's as again, it's a massive organization and hundreds, hundreds, over a hundred thousand grants a year or something like that, isn't it? In terms of grants.
SPEAKER_01:Over 100,000 uh grants and uh and over 200,000 applications a year.
SPEAKER_02:So you need you need a lot of input from a lot of people. Uh I I think in the past, maybe the EPO um ran into a couple of arguments many, many years ago now about whether it was consulted fully. But I do feel these days you consult as much as you possibly can. You're still not gonna make everyone happy. You know that. Even you and I have even you and I have argued before now, but anyway. So I was gonna talk a little bit about some of the other points there. You touched on paperless, and I know that that's a really high priority for the EPO. Do you want to quickly run through what that's gonna look like if things pan out and what the feedback's been from the user community?
SPEAKER_01:Paperless, the aim of the EPO is that we would have about 95% paperless patent grant process in April uh 20 uh 27. We have uh chosen so-called smooth approach, which would mean, uh and of course, that is all based on the amendment of PCT rules that entered into force uh this summer. And uh we have chosen so-called uh smooth approach, which would mean that for filing, of course, we hope, and already now we see that uh more than 97% of um applications are filed, or actually, sorry, I need to correct myself. Over 99% of applications are filed uh online, and also very large majority of oppositions are filed online, and uh, but then subsequently filed documents that we would like to see even more online filings. And in the future, with the sub smooth approach as of uh 2027, it would be electronic filing, would be the main line. There would be a possibility to file on paper in order to get the filing date or to meet the red line. However, then um electronic re-filing within a set time limit would be necessary. And on the notification side, because of course it's not only that we would uh like we would ask applicants to file online and then we would send paper. No, we would also not send paper. Notifications would be via the mailbox. And the notifications would be electronic and online, and also the communication with other stakeholders, authorities uh linked to the patent system would be mainly online. Of course, we would need to make some exceptions. For example, if if a court requires something from us, a national court, and they don't do electronic. But the principles are all online. That requires a lot of changes in the rules because we want to make sure that uh also then the famous safeguards in the system are fit for the electronic world, and uh so that uh if there are some internet outages at a large scale that is covered and not only earthquakes or similar. And one reason why I'm talking about it or why we are talking about it now already, we started to talk about it in Sakyapo Working Party rules uh almost a year ago, and uh is that we would like to have the rules uh adopted well ahead when we start with the paperless system, so that there would be a really long period for everybody to get the information, receive the communication, learn to know all the tools if they have been using paper until now, and uh so that nobody would be left behind in that progress. Because we also see that in our contracting states, in some coun uh in some of the contracting states, also the governments have moved uh very much, or all the authorities have moved to digital um communication, but there are other countries where that is uh not at the same level. And of course, we need to make sure that everybody is at the equal level.
SPEAKER_02:I mean you've you've touched on it there. I think what I've seen of the feedback, the big concern is over that whole earthquake, what if it all goes wrong kind of position. And I my understanding is that you're very aware of that. You're gonna be sympathetic, as it were, because people are gonna worry about that. And of course, you had we had a down the EPO website was down, what, a week and a half ago or something, with that weird cyber attack on Cloudflare or something. And you I think you dealt with that very quickly.
SPEAKER_01:Yes. Uh of course we already now have the uh have the principles that when there is the audit uh outage uh on the EPO side, so then we um put the communication out and then uh the deadlines are prolonged. And uh the safeguards that we are talking about, of course, we also need to make sure that if there is a cloud problem uh or some kind of uh cable between uh countries at the bottom of the sea is uh somehow damaged by some passing ship uh so that uh those uh situations are covered. And uh that is what we want to have uh also then um covered in in the relevant safeguard rules. Of course, we cannot, as I hope that everybody understands, if somebody doesn't do the updates in their computer or they have one just uh UQL, uh your laptop crashes, so uh we cannot really excuse that. There are the normal means of redress uh for that kind of situations. But uh if it's then, let's say, a whole territorial area where um where the systems don't function, so that would be covered the same way than what we have had in the past about ash clouds or earthquakes.
SPEAKER_02:Ash clouds, yeah. Um, I think all these things are very important to make provision for. But yeah, laptop downtime is is a is a biggie too. No, I think I think you'll take I know you're taking that feedback. I think you yeah, you'll you'll continue to get it as as you know, because what you're trying to do is change something. And um professionals, we don't like change, but but thank you anyway. We'll get there. Um I was gonna ask you.
SPEAKER_01:May I interrupt you? Uh uh so the the feedback is um we see the feedback that we get when we have a proposal to change something, we see the feedback as very useful because uh, of course, um we cannot take all the feedback into account because also sometimes the feedback is very controversial. So A says uh no and B says yes, and uh should we listen to A or to B? And uh so um, but there is uh what I have been often saying in all these meetings is also that uh we see a different way to look at the proposed changes, and uh there might be some uh need to change what we are proposing because sometimes somebody might understand it differently than what we meant, like always when you speak or when you write, so uh the recipient might uh hear or read it differently than what it was meant, and also that we can then prepare ourselves for any possible cases that might arise, because you patent attorneys, you are often very good in imagining the worst case scenarios that we would not even dream about. And it might be that they come or they never come, but uh at least we know that something like that could come.
SPEAKER_02:Thank you. I I accept that, although I would mention it was you who talked about Ash Clouds, not me. But there we go. So we're all thinking.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, but the Ash Clouds they came from Iceland some years ago.
SPEAKER_02:Um so a couple more. Um actually that's the that that transition to paperless is a huge priority. Any of the big priorities at the EPO? Any big changes that you think are worth mentioning?
SPEAKER_01:Um of course, the unitary patent system has been a big, big change, and it will continue because it is a real change in the European patent landscape and in the whole infrastructure. And uh what we are following very closely, of course, we are following very closely the case law from uh our course of appeals and uh in last court of appeal, but now also then the case law from um the Court of Appeal of the Unified Patent Court. And now we have seen that there is already in many fundamental aspects of patent law, there is uh very much alignment between their decisions and what has been the established EPO practice, and it's a good um basis to build on. Um of course, also there are all the pending cases at the Enlarge Court of Appeal, which uh which are big uh to be followed, similarly than um what the UPC Court of Appeal, so or even more um relevant for us than what the UPC Court of Appeal is doing. And uh certainly at European level, there are a lot of political discussions that are touching upon uh us as well, like new genomic techniques or AI and um the AI systems. Certainly the AI inventor has uh has been a topic uh, and um, but now at the moment we are looking uh certainly I think that you as well are waiting for the enlarged board of appeal then to decide on G125.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, there was all the exciting stuff there, and you beautifully segue me to my nearly last question, anyway, which is that obviously you do quite a lot for the enlarged board as well, and you effectively stand in as though you're the president. So, how does that how does that work? Because I'm I saw you when you video cast that one about simulation, the the the decision on that.
SPEAKER_01:Yes, uh so the uh the president is uh has always a right to comment and is invited, you know, that there is uh when there is a case uh or when there is a referral pending at the Inland Board of Appeal, the general public can file uh their amicus curious or their letters of opinion in those cases, and but the EPO president is uh always asked uh for comments in those cases. And uh then the president submits uh the comments and in the oral proceedings the president is also uh represented and is presenting the opinions and answering any questions the in last board of appeal might have. Of course, um the president has a different position than the parties to the proceedings, but uh it is important because um the as you mentioned earlier, the decisions of the technical boards of appeals are pending for the case at hand, but uh the decisions of the in-last board of appeal, because uh we know that all the technical boards would follow them, so then they also have a very clear and significant impact on the EPO proceedings. So, therefore, it's important that the president can then also comment on those cases. And of course, it's uh it's uh what would be the nice adjective? It's interesting, it's enriching, it's challenging to dig into that kind of fundamental topics of patent law.
SPEAKER_02:That's good. I mean, I like the and I I know Mr. Campinos takes a keen interest in the detail of the law, but it's a nice legal fiction as well that the president cares about the law. It works both ways. And I think then obviously having somebody super competent to step in and do the um do the talking is a nice move too. And it must be fun for you to go a little bit back to the actual kind of practicing lawyer advocate element of your training.
SPEAKER_01:No comment on that.
SPEAKER_02:Okay, okay. Interesting then. I think it's still without adjective. Good. So, Lee, thank you for let thank you for indulging me. This has been there's been at least one pattern that having a great time uh on on this conversation. That was me, by the way. I think hopefully I'll even draw. Actually, one last question if I can before I hand back to Lee, which is you mentioned diplomatic conferences. Now, they sound amazing. They sound to me like they must be held on exotic Caribbean islands with all the most high-powered members of national governments turning up, spending a week absolutely gorging themselves on patent law before coming out with EPC. It was EPC 2000 was the last one, wasn't it? Which didn't come out for a few years after that, as I remember. Are we gonna see one of those again? Not not the fancy island, but I've just made that up. Actual diplomatic conferences. Uh is it are we get is there anything ever gonna happen again? Are we stuck with the EPC now?
SPEAKER_01:So uh the last diplomatic the last diplomatic conference was 1999, and it was uh not fancy tropical islands uh in Munich in uh mainly in Isap building in the meeting room. Okay, I wasn't involved, uh I was uh on maternity leave that time, so I don't have any memories of that. And uh for the time being, there are so I'm talking about um this uh status. Uh there is there are no plans for a new diplomatic conference in that sense.
SPEAKER_02:It's interesting. I mean, I I don't particularly hear calls for adequate changes to the EPC. That's a that's what 26, 26 years ago, um, that conference. It's quite an impressive bit of lawmaking, really, that it's managed to hold up to uh some significant technology changes, changes in the legal environment, everything else.
SPEAKER_01:So but Quillem, that is exactly uh coming back to the no nerdiness, but of course, that is exactly the fascination of patent law that starting from um the Venice uh uh the Venice uh convention, uh the Venice Act uh and uh old Paris Convention and all that, so patent law is so adaptable because the fundaments are so uh say clear that uh it is adaptable for the techno uh technological and technical developments, and therefore you don't uh necessarily need to go make some uh changes the whole time. And of course, that is also what our enlarged board of appeal said in G119. You don't need and you cannot actually define what is technical or technology because it's uh it's developing.
SPEAKER_03:So, Gwen up, I've I've had to take a back seat and let you crack on today, which is um I mean it's not it's not a rarity, we do occasionally, but uh it's been quite good though, because in the background here, all you can hear is drilling noises. So I wouldn't have been good audio company today, I don't think. Henny, thanks to other neighbours taking your lights down again. We'll come back to lights in a minute, okay? Uh Henny, thank you so much for joining us. It's been an absolute pleasure to have you on. As I was explaining at the beginning, we um we don't just let our podcast guests get away with the professional stuff they come here to do. Me and Gwillem usually have a quite a kind of a whimsical closer, and it's my job to try and set that for today. So over to Gwillem first. You ready for this, Gwillem? So all things Christmas then. I was I was sat here contemplating where might be the most unusual, strange, or otherwise irregular place that Gillam might have spent Christmas, either Christmas Day or around about Christmas time. What's an odd thing you've done at Christmas, mate?
SPEAKER_02:Bitary, it was actually having a pub lunch. I've never done it. And I did it for the first time ever, about two or three years ago, for various domestic reasons. And I was astonished at how much it cost. It was unbelievably expensive. And and but it ran out of time and we had to take our Christmas puddings away in a little bag. So it's not very exotic answer, but it was quite a surreal experience. I think I'd do it again, however, because it was zero stress.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah, no, I'm I'm I'm I'm a big Christmas lunch cooker, but I it does mean that my blood pressure is through the roof by about three o'clock. Yeah. How about you, Henley? Have you got any interesting Christmas time stories?
SPEAKER_01:Interesting Christmas time stories. Okay, maybe it was uh one of the interesting Christmas time uh stories was when we were the whole family having spending the Christmas time in uh in our lake uh so summer cottage at our summer cottage in Finland. And uh we were discussing the climate change uh earlier in southern Finland. You don't necessarily have snow and reindeers uh wandering around uh around the Christmas time. Uh it was again a big storm, dark and icy, and the electricity went down.
SPEAKER_03:Well, actually, that can be really good, that can be fun.
SPEAKER_01:In uh in the summer house, everything is with electricity, even toilets and the water pump. So there was a certain necessity to find a place where to spend the day, which was the hotel spa.
SPEAKER_03:Perfect solution for a technical problem, I think. That's yeah, brilliant. Very good. So I've got two Gwillam, and I'm wondering which one to share with you. I might save the other one for another day, and we'll probably do a Christmas question at some point in the future. When we're doing this in 20 years' time, I'm sure we'll do it again. So I'm gonna go for, I think this was 1998, because I know where I was working and I left there in September 99. So it must be the Christmas of 1998. So that's going on a bit, isn't it? So I was working at uh Hybrid uh Further Education College, um, Hybrid College in Portsmouth, and for one of my many areas, portfolio areas there was I was in charge of prison education. And this wasn't Christmas Eve, this was Christmas Eve Eve, so 23rd of December, and me and a number of the senior staff at Hybrid have been invited to go into the prison to be served Christmas dinner by the inmates. This is the lifestyle prison, okay? It's one of the, and it was one of the it's closed now, but at that time, but it's one of the only lifers prisons in the UK that had a geriatric wing. So people would go there to see out the rest of their sentences and were most likely going to die in prison. We get served this lovely, amazing Christmas dinner in uh you can you can imagine it's not the greatest environment. You are literally sat in kind of like surrounded by cells and stuff like that. But we've been served this lovely Christmas dinner. The chef comes out, we congratulate the chef, and he leaves. And someone then asked the warder, what's the person in charge of a prison called? It's not the warder, is it? Don't know, name escapes me. Governor, governor, governor, governor, the governor, yeah. So someone asked the governor, oh that's that's that's great. Um, what's he in for? And with with like absolute deadpan, straight face, he poisoned his wife.
SPEAKER_01:Yes, obviously that he poisoned his personality. That is the sad story in double um, yeah.
SPEAKER_03:Clearly not sad, not funny that he'd poisoned his wife, but funny in the sense that we just had a lovely dinner and were then told he was a poisoner.
unknown:Yeah.
SPEAKER_03:I probably need to be more careful about how I tell that story, couldn't I? Not and not laugh at the way he poisoned his wife, but didn't mean that. I'll take I'll take advice from opinion about whether we take that laugh out. I'm overthinking this, Gwillen. I'm overthinking it. I don't know. No, yeah, sorry, I'm doing a great job. Henry, thank you so much for coming on. It's been an absolute pleasure. Guillem, I'll see you on the next one. Uh, and just a little reminder to our regular listeners that if they leave us a review on the podcast platform of their choice, that will help more people find us.
SPEAKER_01:Thank you very much, uh Lee and Quillem. It was my pleasure and it was fun. It was it's nice to meet other nerds.
SPEAKER_03:Oh, he's he's king of the nerds, this one.
SPEAKER_04:Two outfits in it, one of the two out easy, one, two out of easy, two out of easy, two out easy.