Two IPs In A Pod
Brilliant inventions, fresh product designs, iconic brand names and artistic creativity are not only the building blocks of successful business - they deliver a better world for us all. But these valuable forms of intellectual property must be protected in order to flourish. We are the Chartered Institute of Patent Attorneys - the UK's largest intellectual property organisation. Our hosts Lee Davies and Gwilym Roberts chat with entrepreneurs, creatives, patent attorneys and the occasional judge about how patents, trade marks, designs and copyright can improve our lives and solve problems for humanity.
Two IPs In A Pod
Christmas Bants, Rants, and Reflections
We celebrate five years of IP conversations with a festive look back at the moments that shaped the show. From lockdown origins to Earthshot wins and live sessions at INTA, we share what we learned from judges, founders, and the quirks that make IP human.
• Launch during lockdown and early interviews with sole practitioners and Tim Moss - link to episode here.
• Judges’ perspectives with Sir Colin Birss (link here) and Sir Robin Jacob (link here)
• Seaweed innovation, Notpla’s Earthshot win (link here), and Seagrown’s journey (link here)
• Trade secrets, pub recordings, and Donald O’Connell’s insights (link here)
• Live podcasting at INTA from Atlanta to San Diego
• Playful bants, jargon gripes, and crafting better closing questions
• Plans for future guests, UPC debates, and interviewing AI
• Personal holiday plans and a warm seasonal sign-off
Merry Christmas and amazing 2026!
Lee Davis and Gillem Roberts are the two IPs in a pod, and you will listen to a podcast on intellectual property brought to you by the Chartered Institute of Patent Attorneys.
SPEAKER_01:Gillem, happy Christmas to you, my friend.
SPEAKER_02:And to you.
SPEAKER_01:How festive are you feeling?
SPEAKER_02:I've got three and a half, three and three quarter-year-old at home, so there's there is no escape. She's met Santa already. She's I've got Brandon. Her immediate question was um, how does he eat? Which I thought was really quite sharp for three-year-olds. But I know, but there's the she just saw this massive bag of hair in front of his face. That's a really good question. Uh we said we say just uh Santa just uh drinks soup through a straw, so poor child.
SPEAKER_01:But uh that's I mean, obviously I've had quite a few children, as a as a view, as a view.
SPEAKER_02:Not a competition, see.
SPEAKER_01:And it's Christmas through the lens of celebrating it with children is amazing, isn't it? I've uh I mean that now my my grandchildren are my surrogates for enjoying Christmas. Yeah.
SPEAKER_02:Oh, it's and I mean obviously Santa exists, which makes this conversation much more straightforward, but it explained just how he manages to get to Nottingham and London and Spain, probably, visiting the in-laws, uh, is it's good, but she's not too she's not asking too much. I think she just already eats enough, really.
SPEAKER_01:So that's that's because you're a physicist, though, isn't it? You know, you would go to the lengths of trying to explain how those kinds of journeys were possible. I just say it's magic.
SPEAKER_02:Oh no, the physicists have actually done some work on the amount of energy that would be required, uh, and the basically I think it would potentially melt the planet just because of the infinite practically infinite speed, the amount of energy involved. There's relativistic effects basically kicking in.
SPEAKER_01:I I I gave up after you said physicists have done some blah blah blah blah blah blah. We should probably explain. We've got no guest on today, it's just thee and me doing a little bit of a Christmas kind of giveaway, really.
SPEAKER_02:It is, it's battle uh it's obviously Santa's Bants and I thought some rants.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:Can I just do can I just do a little shout out? Because I had David Williams and the team from Optos up in Scotland, the in-house team, in yesterday. And they were all waxy lyrically about the podcast. So I'm just hoping they're gonna listen to this one. Uh and I've given them a little name check.
SPEAKER_02:Shout out. I like that. If people we can never work out, we need people listen to it.
SPEAKER_01:It could just be you and me and so many people talk about it, don't they? Everybody you bump into is listening to the podcast. It's amazing. Sorry, I cut you off when you were talking about bants. Apologies. And rants and rants and rants and ants in your pants. Okay. Is it just gonna it's just just gonna be a rhyming podcast? I'm gonna I'll I'll struggle.
SPEAKER_02:I'm gonna give you a bant, which is also a rant. I wrote it down a little while ago, and it was 80 pence under payment.
SPEAKER_01:Oh, yeah. This is the this is the health move, which is now like two months on, so I've kind of forgotten about it. We I decided, we decided to go for the full packing experience uh because I just couldn't be bothered to do all of the packing that you need to do. So you get a hire company come in, a removal company come in. I won't name them, obviously, terribly unfair. Uh they come in, they do the whole experience for you. So they come the day before, they do all your packing, they load the next day, they move you in, and then they don't do your unpacking, but they at least take all the boxes to the rooms that you need them in and stuff like that. So it's entirely stress-free. Except we're halfway through day two, they've half-loaded the van, sir, and the foreman guy comes over and he says, Sorry, mate, we've got to stop. You've underpaid. So I went into a panic. It was like, No, no, I'm sure I haven't underpaid. Yeah, you're gonna get a phone call from uh finance team, get a phone call from the finance team. She starts berating me about how I've underpaid, and I'm feeling awful, feeling absolutely dreadful. And and then she said, and I said, Okay, can I just settle over the phone? She said, Okay, yeah, I said that'd be ATP. In a bill that was over three and a half grand. It's like it's it's uh brilliant.
SPEAKER_02:Can you um give just say keep a knickknack? They could have kept one of your knick knacks. The amount they broke.
unknown:Right.
SPEAKER_02:Well, I've got one which is not it's a bant rant. Got it. It's kind of fond. I've come across in the same conversation with somebody recently, I had two new turns of phrase I've not heard before, which I think the bit of me that hates new words hated, but the bit of me that kind of thinks, oh, why not change a bit quite light? First one is when you're talking about something and you want to go into it into more in more detail, you say, let's double click on that. I say that.
SPEAKER_01:Do you say that? No, I don't think I've ever said that. I thought you were saying that was said, oh, just uh you as in the general you.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, one one double clicks on it. So from going forwards, you need to double click and say let's double click on that. That's the first one.
SPEAKER_01:It doesn't work, does it? Because you don't double click on something to go deeper into it, you go double click on something just to open it up.
SPEAKER_02:Oh, you get the menu. Maybe or is that left click? Oh no, is that right click?
SPEAKER_01:Oh, I don't know.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, I don't I don't understand how that works. Maybe it's right click. Oh, maybe it was right click on that. I wish I I didn't listen. Anyway, that's the first one. The other one was we're peanut buttering it. What? Peanut buttering it. Never never heard it. When you've got budget and you've got to allocate it, but you don't know what to do, you peanut butter it, you put a bit everywhere.
SPEAKER_01:No, never heard that one.
SPEAKER_02:Well, let's let's let's double click on that, Lee, and go into a bit more detail.
SPEAKER_01:What circle what professional circles do you move in to hear this stuff? Or is this it or is this all down the um down the preschool?
SPEAKER_02:Is it no no it was hanging out with my condiment friends, is what it was. Anyway, there you go. That's that's the bant rant's done. I've got more, but that'll do. That'll do.
SPEAKER_01:That's that event's done. I'm disappointed. I thought we were gonna get more than that.
SPEAKER_02:Oh, I've got a long list if you want. Okay, one more. One more. You know, when you start typing your password in on the the in the internet, and you type in it, and it says that's not a valid password because you haven't finished typing yet. Yes. That's irritating. That is infuriating.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, I yeah, I I share your um frustration. Yeah, that that yeah, yes, I know it's not. I've not finished.
SPEAKER_02:Okay, one more then, and I'm done. When's the last time you put your laptop on your lap? Can we rename it, please?
SPEAKER_01:I always work with my laptop on my lap. Where's your laptop now? It's on the table. But we're we're podcasting. If it was on my lap, you'd be like, and things like that. Yeah. I do generally work with it. I've I've got one of those trays that you get for older people when they're have to eat on their laps when they're slightly infirm. You know the ones with like a cushion underneath? Yes. So yeah, so I've I have a cushioned tray that my laptop sits atop on my laptop.
SPEAKER_02:That's um oh, do you have one of those one in the bath as well? The one that goes across and you put your soap on it.
SPEAKER_01:No. Okay. I would not have my laptop anywhere near my bath. Don't take your laptop in the bath. That's okay for safety reasons. Yeah.
SPEAKER_02:You I think you also want to you want to take a trip down memory lane.
SPEAKER_01:Well, only because thinking that we were doing this sort of like 20-25 minute gig for Christmas, I thought, well, what what would be a good thing to do? And I I just did I did a bit of reminiscing or prep, as we like to call it in the podcasting world. I know I know you don't necessarily do reminiscing, but you know, we launched on 30th of April, 2020. So over five years ago. Who thought we'd still be doing this Malaki five years on? No, maybe neither.
SPEAKER_02:I thought we might get about 10 done, possibly eleven.
SPEAKER_01:Do you remember what the first podcast was, Gillam?
SPEAKER_02:Well, I wasn't on it.
SPEAKER_01:Anyway, the first the first publisher on you were.
SPEAKER_02:Oh they didn't realise that. I thought, okay. Uh no, uh.
SPEAKER_01:Actually, I'm now gonna go and check just in case you um you've now got me worried and I've got to be a little bit more than I've got.
SPEAKER_02:You didn't want to at me and you felt it was empty and lonely and it didn't work. Oh, it was me on my own.
SPEAKER_01:The first one was. Yeah. No, yeah, you're entirely right. And then we had to rope you in because I just wasn't good enough. So the first one was uh in isolation with sole practitioners when we were looking at the effects of the lockdown on people that were only running small firms so didn't have a big infrastructure around them and stuff like that. In fact, the first half a dozen that we we did were all around the effects of lockdown on various different people that we come in contact with. The second one, your first one, was in isolation with Tim Moss, who at that time had fairly recently started as the chief exec of the UK L IPO.
SPEAKER_02:Yes, okay, that that makes sense. And of course, then he went on to basically run whales. Yeah, he did, yeah, he did.
SPEAKER_01:He'd be he joined us from his farm, if you remember. Yes. We we made lots of animal noises to make him feel at home, obviously.
SPEAKER_02:Oh, that was a hadn't he been milking just that morning or some or birthing. He birthed something, don't they?
SPEAKER_01:I'm not entirely sure if it was milking, but he yeah, think you're right, actually. Yeah, it would listen back. James Harriet. Yeah. You want me to give you some of my highlights? Just to because I occasionally listen to the podcast. Yeah. So and I have done a little bit of listening back this morning, not to whole episodes, but just to little kind of extracts. Uh I went back to the we've we've had Sir Colin Burst on a few times, and he's always amazing value, isn't he? He's such a such a great character. He um for me he always brings the human side of the judiciary to life, and that I think is really important. So we had him on, I think we had about three times now. We've had him on when we were in the pub, but first first time round, he was regaling us remotely with all sorts of stories, and he and I found out that we had a shared interest because, of course, we had both early in our careers done a bit of plumbing. Me properly professionally getting paid for it, him doing from memory, it was plumbing in science labs.
SPEAKER_02:Yes, that rings a bell. Yeah, I think he yes, and he prepared because I think he thought that through before he got there. So he he was um he was all as usual all over it, and now he's uh incredibly important. He was there, though. Now he's incredibly important.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, he's been elevated at least twice since then, hasn't he? If that's the if that's the right phrase.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, I saw him in his Chancellor robes, it was spectacular.
SPEAKER_01:I imagine they're hugely impressive. Oh, would he pass as Father Christmas with a beard in them? Are they that kind of spectacular?
SPEAKER_02:He flips the wig upside down, yeah, totally.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, we need to get him to do that. Yeah, we still need to get him to do that. I'll stick with the judges theme for the moment. Um we also had an early podcast with Sir Robin Jacob, and to me that was one of our best podcasts, not least because we didn't actually manage to get a word in edgeways. He absolutely ran rings around us with his various stories.
SPEAKER_02:He's quite relaxing in that sense. No, he's still, of course, still going strong at UCL as a prof, running all kinds of things, yeah, lots of initiatives. He's an incredible bundle of energy. It's a lesson to us all league. We can do this.
SPEAKER_01:Very active in the the UK must rejoin the UPC initiative.
SPEAKER_02:Yes, yeah, no, and of course, he's got such good connections. He's he's yet to meet anybody who disagrees. I think he maybe needs to meet a few more people, but even so, it's fantastic. And hey, good on him.
SPEAKER_01:We we could maybe get him and one or two others who are of that thinking on to do a podcast in the new year, maybe about um pinions listening, pinya, on it. On it, yeah, yeah, because we could get uh who else could we get on? Oh, there's David Capos. David Capos would join us, wouldn't he? Yeah, he's he's written a paper on the UK rejoining the UPC. Yeah, that's a big cool one. Okay, this is this is a little kind of Christmas present giveaway, isn't it? We're giving away our thinking about how we plan podcasts.
SPEAKER_02:Behind the scenes, we plan podcasts during podcasts. Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:We we planned podcasts. When did this start? I also not not least because Tibor gave me a book as well of his life. Uh, the podcast with Tibor Gold stood out for me. Absolutely amazing life. He told us his story of how he fled Nancy Nancy Hungary as a Jewish refugee. I think he was just a wee a wee child, three, four from memory, maybe. Yeah. And then obviously came to the UK, English as a second or a third language, worked his way through the IP system, eventually becoming super president, and of course, went on to do some amazing work with various charities trying to improve inclusivity and diversity of the IP professions. Such an amazing, fascinating man.
SPEAKER_02:Oh, yeah, and the whole Hungarian backstory, he did all the Rubik work in the 80s as well. So just like this story.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I think that's the great thing about the podcast is we we do this mix, don't we? We look for like the hard IP stories, the inventors, uh, their attorneys, but also we we occasionally stumble across across podcasts when when the person is more interesting than the invention or the story. You know, the we mustn't forget that there are people behind uh creativity and innovation, and it's their stories that are the most powerful.
SPEAKER_02:A little secret, yeah, it's the people bits that I like most. I hear a lot about IP in my life. But yeah, no, the IP is really interesting insights, etc. But it is actually the human stuff that's fascinating.
SPEAKER_01:So shall I shall I remind you of a couple of really interesting people that we had on? So the first was the first was Pierre Palier, who um who entirely by almost by accident, although he was trying to find uses for seaweed in his kitchen, he told us a story about how he and a colleague in university just stumbled across the chemistry of seaweed and were just boiling it and making it into gels and all kinds of things to see what they could do with it. And inadvertently, accidentally, serendipitously, I guess, because they were trying to achieve something, discovered a way of making non-plastic plastic, which is which is where his company Knoplah came from. We um we at that stage had become uh a nominating organisation for the Earthshop Prize, and we nominated Pierre and Knopplah for the Earthshop Award, 1 million pounds, and they won. And he came on to tell us all about the story of Knopplah, and it was really an amazing podcast, one people should go back to and listen to again.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, and I think our whole Earthshot experience has been brilliant. We got quite heavily involved with super was it super nominators and everything. Yeah, we're a super nominator now, yeah. Yeah, well that's okay. Because I was in I was in Singapore for one of the awards, and um I just went along to represent CPR and Bastille turned up in a very small theatre to play one song, and I was thinking, gosh, that was good.
SPEAKER_01:It's good, it's cool. One one more earth shot story. Uh you're you'll remember this one. So we had on, and so this was again, it was about seaweed, so it was related, but this was about the the harvesting of seaweed because it can be used as sort of biofuel and so on. So a company called Seagrown had come up with a way of growing uh seaweeds vertically, uh chains and kind of structures and all c all kinds, and and we had nominated him for the Earthshop prize. And the extraordinarily named Wave Crooks came onto the podcast to tell us about Seagroan's story. Wave couldn't be a better name, could there, for someone who is uh making his living out of harvesting seaweed. But we spent more time on his backstory than we did on the story of Seagroan because he had lived, again, the most extraordinary life. He had he had been a former trawleman, a royal navy officer. And yeah, we always do this tangential question at the end. And can you remember what I asked?
SPEAKER_02:Something I can't remember exactly, but he won.
SPEAKER_01:So I I I I asked what was the most extraordinary thing that you've pulled out of the sea, and vaguely remember what my answer was. I can't really remember what your answer was, because we were both a dog at his story of how he was once employed to kind of subacqua, whatever the word is, down to a sunken uh vessel to try and release from it effectively briefcases containing money, I think was the uh was uh was the story. It's just just absolutely extraordinary.
SPEAKER_02:That was very cool, and also he found love, didn't he, during his there's quite Jane Off. There's a Jane Austen moment, the kind of reader I married him moment, her moment, sorry. Um he did research with one of the scientists that are out there looking at seaweed and they they they fell fell fell fell in love. It's beautiful.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, that's it was such a cool story. We've also had sort of a celebrity, I guess he's he's a celebrity, Oli Hornon, uh stand-up comedian to talk about intellectual property jokes and game formats and stuff like that. And uh stupidly we did try to out joke him, which was um which was a ridiculous uh attempt on both our parts because you can't out-comic a comic.
SPEAKER_02:He's a pro.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah.
SPEAKER_02:No, he was he was great. I liked his story. He'd been doing Asia and Australia as well, so these fascinating stories about comedy out east and things, which was cool. Um I think I mentioned you learn it. He's actually, this isn't a promo, but I've noticed he's actually playing Drury Lane at the moment. So he's in total. He's back in the UK, very active. It's great to see.
SPEAKER_01:And then two innovations of our own during the five years that we've been podcasting. First, the podcast, taking taking the podcast out to a pub, bringing in guests, encouraging them to enjoy a beer if that's what they're keen to do, or soft drink, and and having a chat. And one of the early ones of those, again, I I sort of picked it out as well, I had a little listen back to it, was Donald O'Connell, managing director of Chawton Innovation Services, uh, who talked to us about IP and trade secrets, and Donald came back to do the same thing uh at the IP paralegal conference earlier this year. And I could listen to Donald forever. Yeah. One because of that absolutely amazing Irish voice, but also, again, a guy with some stories to tell.
SPEAKER_02:Uh although Yeah, I do love those podcasts. He was fantastic. Broadly, it's just a lovely way. I quite like doing it back to back. And obviously, because we don't drink, we remain entirely professional for the whole thing.
SPEAKER_01:Throughout, yeah, it's never ever kind of descended into any kind of chaotic cake that we couldn't use. That's your more and then and then the probably the last one on my list of things to think about innovations was taking the podcast to winter, which which to be fair, you had kind of nudged, nerdled, nerdled, nerdled, is that the word? Absolutely encouraged me to do for a couple of years, and then I finally gave in because we went to Atlanta in when was that? Was that 24? I think it was 24, wasn't it? Yeah. Some of it, yeah. For the first time, and podcasted from a little ante-room in Inter. They found us a little cupboard, and we sat in the cupboard and we we interviewed various people who were attending into that year. And then they were just back when it moved from Atlanta to San Diego, and they built uh like a goldfish tank podcasting cabin. So we were on we were on the exhibition floor podcasting in all our glory for the world to see. Quite an amazing experience.
SPEAKER_02:That's great with the uh with the robot dog getting confused, trying to hop the wall perspecs because he relied on LIDAR. That was yeah, that was my point.
SPEAKER_01:And of course, we're hopefully we're gonna um we're gonna do the same again in 26 when Inter comes to London.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, no, that'd be brilliant. I think those those Inter ones have been interesting. It's we we got to interview people who involved with Inter and also people from you know who are at Inter, which is kind of a huge chunk of the IP community. And yeah, we got we got a lot. We did a yeah, we did a pop, we did a podcast in San Diego. Yeah, we did a podcast.
SPEAKER_01:We did a podcast in San Diego as well. Yeah, we did we did we did sort of four or five recordings in the in the inter booth, and then yeah, we did a podcast, mainly received for members, to discover why they were going to inter and what was the the draw for them.
SPEAKER_02:And I got completely um absorbed by guys sat outside who have more ketchup than food, if you remember. I do remember, yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_01:That's right.
SPEAKER_02:He had absolutely smothered his plate with a sea of ketchup and then like little kind of chips at the outside, there's like a kind of a rising sun kind of vibe. And I've not I think it's a cross has ever seen you with me, actually. Because you said, can you please focus on the podcast?
SPEAKER_01:We're doing a podcast here, mate. Can you focus? What are you looking at? And then and then I was distracted by the same one she pointed it out, as yeah.
SPEAKER_03:It was awesome.
SPEAKER_01:Anyway, yes. So that was it. That was my little kind of uh retrospective on being a podcaster.
SPEAKER_02:I've enjoyed it. This isn't a this is a Christmas edition, but no, it's not a specifically relevant number. We've got number 200 coming up.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, that'll happen in the next year. Yeah.
SPEAKER_02:And and the guests off of that, 250, and then I think just go on for eternity, don't we?
SPEAKER_01:We're gonna have guests, I would imagine. Or we'll the system will just keep churning them out for us, I guess, because innovation never stops.
SPEAKER_02:We seem to we seem to have more rather than fewer guests at all times, actually. Um I'm loving doing it, Lee, and I'm loving doing it with you. Just to be clear, I think it's brilliant.
SPEAKER_01:Why don't we? So Opinion can maybe be uh yeah, I'll come back to that. Why don't we? I'm just thinking, could we could we be the first podcast, unless anyone else has done it, where the guest is AI? Could we could we interview AI on the podcast? I don't know how you would make that work, but there must be a way you could do that. There must be a way you could have a conversation with Chat GPT and just ask it questions and read them out.
SPEAKER_02:I'd love that. I asked it recently if the giraffe is a sheep, which it obviously isn't. Got quite a good answer. Clear.
SPEAKER_01:It's not. Okay. I would have guessed that, actually, from my own.
SPEAKER_02:No limited donations there at all. It was absolutely right. Yeah, that kind of question for me, I'm very happy about that.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, but thank you for the little kind of nod. I've enjoyed podcasting with you, as it turns out. Who whoever thought we would. We learned a lot. Yeah, we have. Yeah, listen back to the earlier, earlier ones, and we were quite clumsy, a lot of editing. Whereas these days, yeah, no work in the background. We're just ready to pod.
SPEAKER_02:If I if I had to point to one skill I've I think I've got from it, it's your closing question. It's just always have an answer. And I think I've got quite good at that because they're quite difficult sometimes.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, and it's they're also quite difficult to come up with because you don't want to be disrespectful to the guest. It's it's about something that's been said in the podcast, and we go off on a little tangent at the end. But yeah, you don't want to be disrespectful to the guests, you want to you want to kind of come back to them, you want to be able to engage them in the question. But also, I want to take the nick out of you a little bit.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, and then also you'll have you always have a really good answer because you work backwards from the answer.
SPEAKER_01:Question. So obviously, I I build it around things that have happened to me in my life. And you know, I've I've lived a relatively uneventful life, not much has happened to me, so there's not much to say. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_02:That's why I was so happy when Wave demolished you with his his response.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, I really thought I had the best story to tell. But yeah. So, any plans for Christmas? Are you at home? Are you off to Spain? What are you doing?
SPEAKER_02:All all those things. I've got three now, so I'm doing my kids before Christmas, which I'm looking forward to. Um we can have a kind of a fake Christmas day just before Christmas, then my parents at Christmas, which I'm looking forward to. Uh, and then we're off to Spain to do um Lydia's parents, which I'm also looking forward to, which is why Santa's going to be pretty busy and very international, basically.
SPEAKER_01:And you? Yeah, so as you know, I've got six children, four of those grown up, probably grown up, they're all grown up, they're all over 18. But yeah, four of those kind of with our own families and stuff like that, and the two girls sort of still at home, although Evie's at university at the moment, so she comes back on the 20th. And it's just chaotic because we're we'll we'll do Christmas Day, just me and two girls, and probably Kyle, dear's boyfriend, who's been on the podcast actually, with his football shirt stories. And and then, yeah, then it's the round of going round seeing all the grandchildren. So so but between Christmas and New Year, there just isn't a break. It's like Christmas Day every day.
SPEAKER_02:Oh, that's lovely though, because I I I hate the step function, so it'll be physicsy again, about Christmas, because at four o'clock on Christmas Day, traditionally Christmas ends. It's very it's funny going to Spain, actually, because they don't end Christmas quite so quickly. In fact, they're playing Christmas music in the shops till the 6th of January, which is weird, but it does kind of keep it rolling a bit longer.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, New Year happens and it should all finish, shouldn't it?
unknown:Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:Turn it all off, turn the lights off, let's get back to normal. Yeah. Well, wherever you're having your Christmas, I hope you have a really brilliant one, mate. And I'll see you on the next proper podcast that we do, yeah?
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, oh, and to anyone who's listening, Merry Christmas! Merry Christmas and amazing 2026.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah. Cheers, mate. Bye.