Reviewing Patent Attorney Training

The rules of qualification aren’t being rewritten overnight, but the questions are getting sharper. We sit down with Debbie Slater, Chair of CIPA’s Education Committee, to unpack the IPReg Education Review and what it could mean for anyone training as a UK patent attorney or trademark attorney over the next few years. The focus is forward-looking: what skills, knowledge, and professional behaviors should someone have at the point of registration, and how do we build training and assessment that actually matches the work attorneys do. 

We explore why the UK pathway can’t be separated from the European Patent Office and the EQE route, especially when so much UK practice runs through Europe. Debbie and the hosts dig into the apprenticeship model, mentoring, and why the profession often talks about “exams” when the reality looks much more like competency-based assessment. We also get practical about what proportionate quality assurance looks like for a small profession, and how costs, resources, and fairness shape access and diversity. 

Then we take on the topic everyone’s wrestling with: AI in patent drafting, prosecution, and client communications. If a large language model can generate a first draft and clients can arrive with AI-assisted interpretations of prior art or office actions, what must trainees still learn the hard way? The answer keeps circling back to judgment, fundamentals, and the ability to review critically, not just produce text. 

If you have views on the IPReg call for evidence, now is the time to share them. Subscribe for more conversations on intellectual property, send this to a trainee or supervisor who’s affected, and leave a review so more people can find the show.

Transcript

Cold Open And Setup

SPEAKER_02 0:22

What I probably trying to do is I hate to use the word future-proof, but looking at long-term. So they're looking to the future in terms of the education, training, qualification to be a patent and a trademark attorney. We've got to um be very clear, this is about the two professions. It's not just about patent attorneys.

SPEAKER_00 0:46

Lee Davis and Willem Roberts are the two IPs in a pod, and you are listening to a podcast on intellectual property brought to you by the Chartered Institute of Patent Attorneys.

SPEAKER_03 1:03

Hey morning, Willem. That's a bright, cheerful office location you've got there. Where are you today?

SPEAKER_04 1:09

I'm at work. Um and we yeah, well, we refurbed it a while ago, and this is everyone's favourite room, and I managed to bag it this morning, so I'm very happy.

SPEAKER_03 1:17

Is that is that some kind of shield on the wall behind you, or is it modern art subscription?

SPEAKER_04 1:22

No, it's all coats, you know, we've got the coats of armour, shields, weapons. We've gone for the kind of medieval look, as you can see. A lot of wood, a lot of stone. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:32

Has KNS got a heraldic crest then? Have you got some uh coat of arms or some such?

SPEAKER_04 1:37

You should see our security. They're slow but safe, that's how I put it, the armour they wear. Uh I was gonna tell you about my stamtish, Lou. No idea what you're talking about. It's it's a so a while ago I was in Germany and I was invited to a stamtish, and I said, What's that? And it's a thing where in some beer keller or other somebody has a table every same day every week or the same day every month, and then you can turn up, have a couple of drinks, have a bite to eat, and you know it's always on every every month or every week. And so I was talking to my yeah, it's a really good idea, actually. I was talking to my son about my oh yeah, you well, you're no stranger to complex family arrangements. I was talking to one of my older batch um about it, and we agreed it'd be a really good idea to do a stam tish. So uh we had one last night, and it's really good. That's our third one. Uh we meet once a month. He invites his mates, I invite my mates, all my three boys all turn up. Um it's very gentle, it's not a huge it's not a it's not a heavy night or anything, but it's really nice. I recommend it to everybody. Have a stamp tissue.

SPEAKER_03 2:37

You know, I'm gonna go and do some research on this immediately after this podcast recording, don't you? I need to find out more about this. For a couple of reasons. I mean, yeah, so one one I'm thinking is council a standish, because it it meets on the first Wednesday of every month, whether it needs to or not. So it seems to it seems to fit the definition. But also and it's enormous fun. It's enormous fun, just like a standish. So um, I'm always fascinated about German words and how they how they come together. So I'll have a look at it from that perspective as well.

SPEAKER_04 3:09

Well the T shit is a table. I think schlamm is something to do with standing, but I don't maybe it means continuing or something. I don't know. Look it up, yeah. And try it. I mean, because I th I like it because I can catch up with a bunch of people once because of my complex family arrangements. I've got a four-year-old at home, so I can't hit the road too much, but it's quite nice. I recommend them to everybody.

SPEAKER_05 3:28

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 3:28

I'll um okay, I'll uh I'll do a little bit of research, and maybe maybe that's what the CPA happy hours, the socials can become. Great. Stamp stampishes.

SPEAKER_04 3:39

Embrace that inner Europeans.

Meet Debbie Slater

SPEAKER_03 3:40

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Or certainly we should make that the Munich version, shouldn't we? If it's if it's something that would be known to the locals. That'd be great. Yes, agreed. There you go. So I'm gonna come away from this podcast moderately educated. Oh no, oh no, I'm gonna come away from this podcast entirely educated because we've got the leading light in the world of patent education with us today, Gruden, Debbie Slater, chair of the education committee. How cool is that?

SPEAKER_04 4:09

Almost as cool as that segue, almost as cool as how you did that. That was very professional. I liked it.

SPEAKER_03 4:14

It's almost like I've been in a podcast for quite some time now, and I can make these connections entirely naturally. Debbie, are you ready to educate us?

SPEAKER_02 4:24

Oh god, leading light.

SPEAKER_03 4:28

Hey, low, halo. I I was speaking to somebody who needs to remain unnamed for the purposes of what I'm about to tell you. Um, but you referred to you were referred to yesterday as probably the hardest working pattern attorney at the moment.

SPEAKER_01 4:43

Oh my goodness.

SPEAKER_03 4:46

Because of everything you're doing on education, but more kind of specifically because of the work that you're doing on it, Greg's education review, which is I know where we're going to be heading for the podcast.

SPEAKER_02 4:56

It's keeping me busy.

Debbie’s Route Into IP

SPEAKER_03 4:58

Yes, obviously others have noticed because that's how you were run that's that's how you were talked about. So we know you've been on the podcast a couple of times before, uh, but there will be people listening to this who don't know who you are. So can you do us the great honor, first off, of reminding us who Debbie Slater is?

SPEAKER_02 5:17

Um I've been in the IP profession since 1983. So that's how long I've been around. But I started as an EPO examiner, so that's how I got into the whole thing. Um, which was in the early EPO days. I mean, it the EPO hadn't been going very long in those days, and um had a great social life, I have to say. Um, but I managed about three years at the EPO and then decided it probably wasn't a long-term career for me. And I managed to get a gig as an in-house IP manager for Vickers PLC, which was a doesn't exist anymore, but it was a big um engineering company in the in the sort of post-war period. Vickers Defence, Vickers Shipbuilding, all that sort of thing. And I ended up finding myself at Rolls-Royce Motorcars in Crew, um, which was also owned by Vickers, um, managing the the group's IP portfolio. So that that was uh introduction into sort of IP management in a commercial setting, but no patent attorney work. We outsourced all that patent attorney stuff to firms. And after a couple of years there, about four years there, I decided really I thought I ought to be um maybe actually trained as a patent attorney. And I spoke to one of the attorneys that was um handling some of our work, Paul Cole, who some of you may remember. Um, he wrote one of the seminal books on patent drafting. Um, don't know whether it's still you may know whether it's still in print. I imagine it probably still is.

SPEAKER_03 6:52

Um you can't talk about sem you can't talk about seminal books on patent drafting with Willem in the room, I'm afraid. He wrote the other seminar book on patent drafting.

SPEAKER_01 7:00

Exactly, exactly. I'm not I'm not denigrating what you've done, Willem, at all.

SPEAKER_02 7:07

Um and I I sat down with Paul in the City of York pub and um Hoban and said, should I become a patent attorney? And he said, Yeah, and if you want, we've got a job going as a technical assistant. So next thing, Anya, I was training to be a patent attorney. And over the years I've I did finally qualify, but again, talking about education and training, um, it took me from beginning to train to actually qualifying fully nearly 10 years. So um I took time out, I was having babies and all that sort of thing. So yeah, it took me a while. So um, and part of it was self-funded. Yeah, my own journey to qualification was not necessarily that straightforward. Um, but I've worked in private practice, I've worked again in industry, I've worked for myself, I've worked in the UK, I've worked in Australia. So yeah, I'm currently have my own small consulting business just south of Cambridge. And since about 2015, which is when I came back from Australia first time, and helped with the introductory patent paralegal course. That's how I got involved in the education sort of side of things. Yeah, I've been involved with CPA since then. So just over just over 10 years, I suppose, in various guises. Um, and currently find myself on on council and chair of the education committee. And and I have to say, I really enjoy it.

SPEAKER_03 8:37

It's um it's entirely evident in everything you say and do, I think. It's uh yeah, it's clear, it's clear and obvious just how much education means to you.

SPEAKER_02 8:45

Yeah, look, I my dad was a teacher. My dad was a teacher, and he used to, um, you know, I I used to go with him beginning of term, you know, I I used to go with him and help him set up his office and things like that. So I was a burst in teaching and he to he taught in lots of different schools, and and I just loved what he did, and I was convinced I was going to be a teacher. Did my physics degree, thought I was gonna be a physics teacher, but then got you know drawn into the world of intellectual property. Um, but it was always in the back of my mind that I might do so. And in fact, I did when we lived in Australia. I um took time out and I I just turned 40 and I decided to train as a secondary teacher of maths and science and did that for a while. So I sort of, you know, I have done a bit of teaching to sort of and I loved I did love it, but the IP got me again and I came back.

SPEAKER_03 9:42

There's um you know, I'm a qualified teacher as well. Yes, yes. And that's you know, most of us who are qualified teachers think about the definition of a teacher as being much kind of wider than someone who's simply qualified and stands in front of people. Essentially a teacher is someone you can learn stuff from. Um and in that in that respect, you're one of the best.

SPEAKER_02 10:00

Oh, thank you very much. I have to say, I I, you know, particularly working, for example, on the paralegal course, which you know, I've I'm still I'm still doing now the advanced course more than the introductory course, but I've just loved um developing those programs um to give people, I don't know, a sense of just success when they when they do the course, they learn stuff, they get to know people, it gives them confidence. I mean, certainly that's the feedback we've had from from the first iteration of the APPC is that you know a lot of the people who started it thought, I'm not sure whether I can do this. And they did it. And they a number of people have said to me, Do you know, Debbie, I've got so much more self-confidence in the work that I do. And to me, that's what education's about. It's about holistic learning, it's not about just learning facts and figures or whatever.

SPEAKER_03 10:58

But it is great. Thank thank you for all you do. It um yeah, it's such an amazing contribution. But we're here to talk about a particular aspect of the work, aren't we? And we are. I know it's quite a conversation we're gonna have, so we should probably focus in on it now. Gillum, please feel free to speak at any time if you choose to. Um, although equally happily sit there in the co-pilot seat and have a coast this time.

SPEAKER_04 11:23

I'm a bit I've actually got I'm enjoying the ride. I would actually just check in. I come from a family of teachers as well. So my sister's teacher, my mum's a teacher, my dad was a university lecturer, um, my aunt's a teacher. It's a complete family business. And I've been involved in education on the law over the years. And I think again, you kind of just it just fits in as one of the things that I think is quite important to do. And and just one other quick point, and I'll hand it back, is that yeah, I I didn't qualify the for fastest either. And I think it's a very good way of really making sure you understand the law. Taking your time, getting a couple of things wrong.

SPEAKER_02 11:58

I do remember, Gwillem. I don't know whether you do, but you and I, I think I first met you when you were probably still training at KS back in the late, no, in the early 90s, it would have been.

SPEAKER_04 12:13

Oh really?

SPEAKER_02 12:14

Yes, yes.

SPEAKER_04 12:14

Oh my gosh, I'm don't worry. There's some blank spots in my memory from most of my career actually. But what what what happened?

SPEAKER_02 12:21

I was doing some work for KS, uh, some freelance work for KS, and I was in Michael Mazer's office.

SPEAKER_05 12:30

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

What The IPReg Review Seeks

SPEAKER_02 12:31

And and you came in to tell Michael something, and you Michael said, This is Gwillem. Gwillem, this is Debbie.

SPEAKER_04 12:39

That's yeah, that that that yeah, he was he was very social like that.

SPEAKER_01 12:44

You were young and fresh faced, like we all were in those days. Still are, still are right.

SPEAKER_04 12:50

I've I've I've derailed things enough. Back to you, Lee.

SPEAKER_03 12:54

Cheers, yeah. Why did I bother bringing you in? I never learned, do I? Never learn. So um, so Debbie, obviously, we've had um Sally on from it break to talk about the review. So that's something that people can always listen back to if they want to know more about the context. So don't don't feel that you have to labour too much to come at the purpose of the review. Uh although I think it would be helpful to have kind of a whistle stop tour through what it'd break her up to and why why they think now is the right time to do it. And then and then maybe talk to us about the committee's approach to this and uh where we're going in terms of a response, then also how other people can get involved in that.

UK Training Meets The European System

SPEAKER_02 13:34

Okay, okay. So, yeah, the review was launched, I suppose, middle of last year. Um, my understanding is that what I prego trying to do is I hate to use the word future-proof, but looking at long-term. So they're looking to the future in terms of the education, training, qualification to be a patent and a trademark attorney. We've got to um be very clear, this is about the two professions, it's not just about patent attorneys. So it's not a retrospective, it's not about looking back and saying this is what happens at the moment, and this is what's wrong with it, this is what needs changing. It's it's not that they are very clear to say that this is about looking forward, trying to think with your crystal ball what are the requirements going forward to um train the future attorneys in the profession. Um and so that's their sort of standpoint. Is it it's not about saying, oh, the exams are wrong, this is it, this is wrong, we need to do something about this, it's about looking. Well, things are changing. Um and to be honest, um, I mean, it's a question that gets asked quite a lot. Why now? Um and and it it is that it's a good question. And but actually thinking about it now is probably a good time because there is no doubt that things are changing in terms of the work that we do as patent attorneys, and therefore the skills, knowledges, behaviors as we talk about in IT's being that we need to have as a as a patent attorney. So they tell us um there is no hidden agenda about this. It it it is, you know, they are looking at getting as many people's views about it, um, and looking to see how they can uh they can put in place, if needs be um things that will make uh the profession better for the future in terms of education and training. So um it's early days at this point in time. Um they have uh they prec, which has a small team working on this, of course. Sally and Katie are the main people that people may have have come across and listened to. Um they started, they did a sort of initial talk to lots of people and they consulted widely talking to people. Um, so what they've done now is come out with a call for evidence and feedback. So they are asking anybody and everybody who's interested in this to submit their views if they can support those views um with evidence, concrete evidence, but of course that's you know that's not always easy. And what they will do is review the call for evidence. And the the idea is that there are there are sort of underlying themes around the review. So things like what are going forward, what do we see as being the skills and the knowledge, and I say the behaviours that are required for a newly qualified patent attorney or trademark attorney at the point of registration? Is what we do at the moment sufficient to support that? How can we widen entry to the profession? So, how can we make the profession more diverse? How can we help people who um may not have the resources to come through the traditional route? So, how can we widen entry to the profession? Um and also how is the workforce changing? How is the workforce changing? And do we need to think about how that impacts on recruitment of new entrants to the professions um and how they're trained? And then last but not least, how do you know how do we need to educate and train and support the stakeholders so that they can get to that point of registration um in the best possible way? So it's not about saying we need to change the exams, but if we decide or decide that you know this is what the future is going to look like, do we need to change the qualification routes? How are they proportionate? How are they um meet the needs of everybody, really? So it's very it's very open-ended, which also makes it quite challenging to respond to a lot of the questions because it's making us think about, yeah, well, what actually is the profession about? What what are we doing? And the obvious thing at the moment is is the use of AI as a way in which it's changing the professions. So um from the education committee's perspective, at the moment we are focused on drafting a response to the survey, the call for evidence. Um and the challenge is certainly from from the CEPA perspective, is making sure that that response reflects the views um of CEPA and and our members, particularly. Um and people are gonna have varying views, and I, you know, I'm spending a lot of time at the moment wherever whenever I'm in with a group of bank attorneys, I hone in on the you know people's views on it. And there are some there are some diverse views, but there are also um there are some commonalities around it. So, you know, for anybody listening to that to this podcast, if they have uh any views around it, um you know that there's 25 questions in this in this survey that that you can respond to. Um so it's quite it is quite a lot of work. But you don't have to respond to all the questions. There's even a free form bit at the end. You can just put something in the freeform bit at the end. So yeah, it's interesting at the moment because that's going on. Going forward, this review is going to take years. It's not it's not a six-month thing. So there's the call for evidence, that'll close on the at the end of April, 30th of April, that'll be looked at, worked, there'll be more discussion, there'll be more thought. They will then come up with some recommendations that will go out for public consultation. Any final recommendations will be not implemented until probably early 2028. So that's the sort of time frame that we're talking about. Um, one thing I forgot to mention, um, as part of it, there is an ex what they call an expert advisory group, which is um a group of about 15 people from both professions, both patents and trademarks, from academia, from the professions itself, um people with some sort of um expert information that they can provide to to IPREC. So I happen to be on that as well. There are other uh C members. Chris Mercer from Council is on there, for example, of course. Chris did a lot of work a couple of years ago with his group around the Mercer review, which sort of nicely feeds in to the work that um we're doing in terms of responding to the review. That's it in a nutshell.

SPEAKER_03 21:50

So very very it's a coconut shell, maybe it was um because it's the as I'm not I'm not sure coconut is a nut, I don't think that works very well, but

SPEAKER_02 22:00

It's it's going to be a very interesting process. Um but it is important that we you know have our view. Yeah, sorry.

SPEAKER_03 22:09

I'll carry on for a bit.

SPEAKER_02 22:10

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 22:11

Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. So can I can I maybe pick your brains on some of the things that have struck me about the review? They're conversations you and I have had, so none of this is gonna um it's gonna come um kind of left field or anything. And and I know that some of this in any case will factor into Singpa's response, and you may so you may or may not want to say stuff about it, therefore. So but the fr the first thing that strikes me is that you can't look at the UK profession without looking at the European dimension. It's it's so important to us. We we rehearsed this a lot, but the the work that we did with our members to determine just how important it was when we were doing the CPTPP uh campaigning work, is about 85% of the work of the UK profession is with and through the European Patent Office. So it's it's you know it's seismic, it's that important to us. And of course, the we don't need to talk about this in detail, but the European system, qualification system has been reformed. And we know we know what that looks like going forward. And whilst the examinations themselves have changed in sort of style and content, the the way the examinations are administered haven't, they are still a set of professional examinations to stand alone from the route that people take to get there. So you can train in many and varied ways before you take the European professional qualifications, yeah. And and that they're they're agnostic when it comes to the the point of qualification. You you can get to it from by attending courses, by learning in practice, by learning yourself. Yeah, many and very different ways. It would be, in my mind, it would be very difficult for the UK position to change significantly from that, because of course you wouldn't want two very, very different models of qualification when when the majority of the profession is looking towards Europe as the principal um down a qualification path. Thoughts on that?

SPEAKER_02 23:59

Yeah, absolutely. And and you know, the European, as you say, the exams are changed in format. Um there's slight changes in timing. So, for example, you can now take paper F of the EQs after one year, which does potentially have impacts for training for the UK exams, but it is you train how you train. And look, we we've always trained in this master and servant apprenticeship model, which works very well. It it, you know, you talk about formation, you know, this idea that you take people from being a trainee and they work their way through, you support them, you mentor them, and they come out as somebody with status, you know, and and it's exemplified here, you know, as being a chartered PAT attorney or charter chartered trademark attorney. So that works well. It works well. And you know, we've we've often said if it ain't broke, don't fix it. That apprenticeship model works well. The quality of training sometimes can, you know, vary over the profession, and maybe that's somewhere where you know things can be improved. The fundamental understanding of what you're doing seems to work well. Um you know, if you look at the European system, you know, our trainees do extremely well in the European exams. So we must be doing something right.

SPEAKER_03 25:25

Shout about it, the best by a margin year on year. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 25:29

Absolutely. So what we do is training, and and you know, training for the Europeans, training for the UK is there's a lot of similarities, a lot of the skills are exactly the same. There might be slight nuances and differences, but you know, it's essentially the same thing. What has also got to be understood, of course, and again we've said this quite a lot, is that to act before the EPO you have to have passed the exams, the EQEs. You have to be a European patent attorney to act for your clients before the EPO. That is not the case in the UK. You don't have to be a registered patent attorney to act before anybody can. Is the profession going to, is it already actually saying, well, the primary qualification is the European qualification and the impacts that that has. So you have you can't you can't disentangle the two really, even though they're two distinct professions. Yeah, most people qualify as both. Um, and certainly, you know, I I would imagine, and Gwen, you can you can put your bit in here in terms of you know, from the private practice, you know, people who who employ trainees, um, and how you feel. Certainly, most would want people to still have those UK qualifications, if any be because of the you know, the patent law focus and in the infringement and validity aspects that obviously are not tested in the in the European system. So those two those two are going to run side by side. And so I think it is important for this review to to that's got to be one of the fundamental things, the context in which these people, you know, new trainees work and learn.

SPEAKER_04 27:24

So thank you. I mean, yeah, from my uh perspective, yeah, the it is it's a set of complementary skills. Um, we have noticed that in some instances we're in a very good position to give quite holistic advice because we handle the infringement side so clearly. And it's kind of the skill of the thought that says you've got to look at both sides of the equation to write a good pattern. You can't just focus on validity, which is kind of more what the European exams test without thinking about infringement, which is the commercial point of the pattern in the first place. So, yeah, I think we dev, I think yeah, almost everybody would agree that you need that full set. And so these two exams, complementary exams, basically make sure that you do have the broad one. If I may, I was actually just reflecting on I love an overriding objective, and I was trying to work out what the overriding objective of our the education system is. And I don't haven't got an answer to it yet, but I was wondering is it to create the best patent attorneys or is it to create the best patent attorney profession? Because there's a slightly different question. I haven't got to the bottom of that one, by the way. But for me, it's quite interesting. But in the end, realistically, I think it has to be the latter one because we have to make sure we can we create a profession that's busy and has work to do. Um sustainability, it's got to be sustainable, yeah, absolutely.

Exams Versus Competency Assessments

SPEAKER_02 28:38

But ideally, if you're if you're a great patent attorney, you are part of hopefully what will be a great profession, but it has to be sustainable. We have we have to think about the attorneys of the future. Um, and and as I say, that's why you know I have this feeling that some to some extent, you know, the review at this point in time is actually quite pertinent because with, for example, the introduction of AI, you know, is that going to change the the capabilities, the competencies of attorneys going forward? I don't know, different people will have different thoughts, but um it is one of the things actually that I pre honing in on as one of the things to look at certainly.

SPEAKER_03 29:35

I know I know there's not a better word for it. Uh well, actually, you two being patent attorneys will be able to advise me if there is, of course, a better word for it. Um, but our our use of the word examination. So I was in a conversation with somebody yesterday. There's a person I know who's looking to um perhaps research careers in being a patent attorney. Uh, they're a chemist, uh, undergraduate at the moment. So I was speaking to another um uh chemist patent attorney, and she she said to me, she said, um, or and I've heard others say this, she said, the thing about examinations is you come out of a university system where you're groomed to succeed, and then for the first time in your life you meet failure because you fail an examination, and you only actually work it out to past examination when you realize it's not an examination, it's a skills test. And um, and and I I do wonder whether because we fright it's the patent examination board, we set a series of professional examinations, but they're not examinations in the sense that the higher education world see them, they are a series of competence-based activities where we where we are trying to assess whether someone is capable of doing real life work. And and I I think that's very different to perhaps so and I think that might be one of the things that maybe we can help it break understand through the reviewers. And we when we use the term examination, we're actually talking about some highly complex interlinked competency tests.

SPEAKER_02 30:59

Yeah, absolutely. Um, I mean I I prefer the word assessment rather than um examination.

SPEAKER_05 31:07

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 31:08

Because examination is is one form of assessment, but there are other forms of assessment.

SPEAKER_05 31:13

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 31:13

Um and to to backtrack a little bit, but you know, talking about the particularly the advanced paralegal course that has assessments, but they're you know, they're open book. They we give them a month to do a series of tasks based on the sorts of things that they will encounter in their work. And you know, I'm not saying that is necessarily but but that's another way of assessing competencies. Um you know, some people have mentioned things like portfolios, for example, you know. I mean, there are issues around you know, confidentiality and things like that, but you know, getting people used to actually putting their work, you know. I mean, I don't know what it's it's like at all.

SPEAKER_03 32:06

Surely there'd be not a little bit of um workplace assessment based on um observation by a supervisor and then external verification of that, that would be an extraordinary path to travel.

SPEAKER_02 32:19

Wouldn't it just my education duties are flowing now, though you know, lots of I mean if you think about the teaching profession, you know, you you do your your one-year PGCE or whatever, um and then you're an NQT, and then you you know you go out and you get supported a bit more in those extra years. And and you know, part of that is you know, you're observed, somebody comes into class and watches you teach, gives you feedback, you know, you've got usually got somebody, a mentor, somebody who's with you for the first couple of years to provide you with support and extra guidance. So there are there are all sorts of different ways of assessing competency.

SPEAKER_03 33:06

But I know there are some more kind of areas that we can probably squeeze a little bit out of in in terms of this. Proportionality given the size of the profession. Do you think that's an an important aspect to the review?

SPEAKER_02 33:17

I think I think it's one of the fundamentals. You know, that there's all this research out there about, you know, at least for assessing the quality of the assessment. And I think this is particularly where proportionality comes in is that the award, the awarding bodies, the PEB or you know, universities are required to show that their assessments are consistent, of a certain quality, all the right stuff. You can you can be made to jump through hoops to show this and and provide all sorts of stuff. But that requires resources, not just money, but people, you know, and and time. Whilst you might, you know, those are the sort of, you know, you can ask somebody to do something, one of the awarding bodies to do something that is you know the ultimate gold standard of quality assurance, as it's called. Yeah, the QA bit. But actually, we are a small profession. And that that way of saying, oh, you have to do this, you have to show this, you have your document control, you this and that, sometimes you you go, well, actually, do we need that? And I think that's that's always a risk um for anything, is that you you you want to achieve you know this sort of notional gold standard of anything. But if the resource, if the cost is such for an awarding body to do that, mean cost in terms of hold hard cash, they've got to find that money from somewhere.

SPEAKER_01 34:47

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 34:47

And that money is gonna come from typically exam fees. Um and so you know, you've got to balance that all up. And that's where the proportionality comes into it. You know, we need to have, we need everybody needs to be absolutely sure that the assessment, whoever does it, a university, a standalone examination board, is consistent, applies the same standards, assesses routinely in the same way, make sure that you know the examiners are trained appropriately, supported appropriately, that they follow all the guidance, all that sort of stuff, which which they have, which they have already.

SPEAKER_03 35:30

So, what I'm hearing you describe, Debbie, is we always think about the training and examination of um patent attorneys as fitting somewhere in the higher education framework. You know, we don't necessarily know where it is, whether it's level six, level seven, but it but it's in there somewhere. There's a more obvious place for it to sit, and that's in the national vocational qualification framework. It's more like an MVQ than it is like uh kind of a traditional higher education qualification. And maybe in part the answer to this is to switch to focus and say this is a this is a vocational qualification. National vocational standards might be the way to go. Um because because MVQs are exactly this. They're employer-led, um, they're they're competency-based rather than rather than examination-based. Yeah. There may be an answer staring us in the face and the one that you described there.

Proportionality And Assessment Quality

SPEAKER_02 36:19

Yeah, I don't, you know, I think you're quite right. It's it, you know, and that goes back to, you know, centuries ago when the professions first started. We we didn't have all that stuff. I'm not saying we go back to that. Fundamentally, we come out of university at whatever, bachelor's, master's, PhD, with a with a technical competency. We've physics, chemistry, biotech, whatever. We then but we hone our other skills by being in the workplace, essentially, because it's very difficult to teach. And I know in some countries it is taught as a course, the whole skill set. But I think in those cases there are particular needs for that sort of setting. Um, but everything we learn and most of what we learn, we learn by doing and being somebody saying to us, that's great, or have you thought about this? Yeah. And over over time, we develop it to the point where somebody says, You're you're good enough to go. Well, take your armbands off now and you can go and swim.

SPEAKER_03 37:22

Single swim. Well swimming, swim preferably.

SPEAKER_02 37:27

Yeah, but ideally, you wouldn't take the armbands off until you know that that person didn't.

SPEAKER_03 37:32

They were lifeguards. They're lifeguards, so it's it's cool. It's cool.

SPEAKER_04 37:35

I'm glad Lee didn't teach me to swim to ask the question. Oh, thank you. I am so first of all, glad Lee didn't teach me to swim. That sounds terrifying. Um, Chuck, I mean, lifeguards are sorted, but more so actually a couple of things. First of all, I think very early on, and you've repeated this, we do know that we've got a really effective and successful system. And so I think when the news first came out about the consultation, I think there was concern through the profession that you know there'd be wholesale changes and we have unintended consequences. So it's really reassuring to hear that everyone's picking up the message across the whole consultation. This is a good system, this is about making it better. I certainly Lee, I know when we had the managing partners session, there was a lot of commentary from almost every stakeholder, basically, this is a good system, let's be aware of that. But yes, and and recognition is always room to improve. But my actual question was um just another parallel topic that's coming up in the office, uh coming up in every conference you go to now, and one I know that Vicky and future presidents got very much in the sites, which is dealing with the impact of AI and what that's going to be doing to training. And I'm just wondering uh if for me it is not I haven't worked out what the solution is personally for sure. I was just wondering whether you're addressing that and what's happening there.

SPEAKER_02 38:46

Uh IPREG certainly has got AI. Um, there are specific questions in the current call for evidence around AI. I know they've been speaking to our AI committee, so it is it is definitely on their focus. I think one of the questions in the, you know, is is things like what skills do you think a newly qualified trainee should have that's not in the current competency framework? And conversely, what things are there that maybe you don't need to have at registration? And obviously the skills around AI, um, particularly around judgment, you know, and and in fact, funny enough, I was I was at a training day yesterday and this came up. And it it's this fact that, you know, AI definitely is going to have a place without a shadow of a doubt, it already does have. But you there's still that requirement for human judgment. So the human works out what do we want to do. The AI, in conjunction with the human, says, Well, this is what you can do, or I'll do it. And then the human comes back in, looks at the output and goes, that's great, or no, we need to do this with it. So I think there's still the understanding that humans play a fundamental part in that. But of course, you know, if you're talking about things like getting an LLM to generate a patent specification, if you get to the point where that's the routine, you put an invention disclosure in, it comes out with a specification. The human judgment bit then comes into putting in the right prompts to start off with and then looking at the output. If you haven't had that skill of just drafting a patent specification in the first place and knowing what the process is, how can you review? And I think this is to me, that's the big challenge. When I when I part of my training was at Nokia mobile phones, and most of my job in the early days was just to review incoming patent specifications that had been translated from Finnish into English, ready for filing at the EPO or in a PCT. And my job was just to review them, look at the claims, did they make sense? Do we need to that was really good grounding for just skills of drafting an amendment and reviewing and knowing what my concern is that that gets lost if we just start doing AI for everything? I don't know, but I think we're all we're all I think the conversations I've been having, you know, it it's still very unknown. And some firms are adopting AI much more than others. Um, and individuals are adopting some are adopting it, others are very reticent. Problem at the moment is we don't think anybody's that clear. I don't know what you think, Lee.

AI Skills And Human Judgment

SPEAKER_03 41:17

Aside comment on that, we agree with that entirely. I mean, it's not that the jury's out, is it? It's that the the trial's not even started. So that that's that's where we are. I'm conscious of time, Debbie. So I'm gonna have to kind of bring us to the case. Yeah, no, no, no. Talk too much, talk too much. No, no, no, don't apologize. This has been the most amazing conversation. Uh, we just may have to have you back, that's all. But uh on the AI thing, I had an interesting conversation with someone the other this was in financial services rather than law. And I did then put a little piece on LinkedIn about it, uh, where I was talking, I've had this long-term kind of notion of the future professional being the centaur. So the kind of the perfect combination of human and AI working together to challenge the world. And and talking to someone about that was that, yeah, the only trouble is clients are becoming centaurs too, was what I got. And it's and it was such a brilliant point. Such a brilliant point that future clients are also gonna be perhaps not the perfect human, but a human, uh, and maybe not the perfect AI, maybe a little bit of misdirection, and but but they're still gonna have that kind of combination of human and a kind of an artificial intelligence involved in there somewhere.

SPEAKER_02 42:19

Yeah, we know already, we know already that clients are turning up with either a draft patents patent specification that they've put through an LLM before coming to see you. Let's park all the implications of somebody having done that in free chat GPT, for example. But they're also doing things like you send them an exam report and say, you know, and here's the prior art, and you and they run that through AI, come to you and say, look, well, chat GPT says this. So they they're coming at it from a different, they're using AI too. And how do you deal with them?

SPEAKER_03 42:50

Yeah, yeah. Debbie, uh, thank you so much for coming on. Uh I feel really awful bringing us to a close because I I could certainly keep going forever. And um, but uh, but I I know listeners have a sort of like a finite capacity to to listen and wear it.

SPEAKER_02 43:04

Uh absolutely, absolutely.

SPEAKER_03 43:06

Don't worry. Maybe maybe when we've put our submission in and we want to kind of talk about it. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 43:10

Yeah. I think that would be that that would be quite nice, actually. I think. Um keep keep keep everybody informed as to what's happening.

SPEAKER_03 43:18

But you know from your previous experiences that we always end the show with some kind of tangential closer. Uh yes.

SPEAKER_05 43:23

I've forgotten about this.

SPEAKER_03 43:25

I'm pretty sure that the last time you were on, because we have teaching backgrounds, and I think Gwillem also talked about his sort of family teaching them. I went down the line of who would who was your most impactful teacher or something like that. So clearly I can't do that one again, right? So, and this is obviously directed at Gwillam and not you, and then we do the kind of like round the roundabout thing. So, Gwillem, I know you've dabbled in teaching, you've more than dabbled, I know you're pretty good at it. Okay. So I want you to think about um perhaps one of the most unusual things you've taught someone and the tactics that you adopted to get that lesson across. So yeah, something you taught in maybe an unusual Why or an unexpected way?

SPEAKER_04 44:01

Um, I taught my mother-in-law to make an origami bot. And we don't speak a common language, so that was quite interesting. How did you do that? Actually, it was quite easy. I just said do what I do. I had to think I I there's a there's a verb in um Spanish which is hacer, which means to make or to do, and there's another verb which is poner, which means to put. And I think between those two verbs, you can basically get almost every everything across. So I could have used various variants on those two verbs and then just sat there very patiently going through it and keeping an eye on what went on. But it's quite interesting teaching without using words, but yeah, she made a great box.

SPEAKER_03 44:41

Debbie, seasoned teacher. You must have taught some pretty unusual things over the years in some fairly interesting ways.

SPEAKER_02 44:47

One thing I hadn't mentioned, but I I'm also a trained um antenatal teacher as well. So um I've done, you know, I've had groups of pregnant people in my living room, and they're about to have a baby, usually for the first time. And I've done role plays on what to expect when you've had a cesarean section, um, changing babies, nappies, all that sort of thing, which is not everybody's cup of tea. In my normal teaching, though, I taught maths at this high school in Perth. And um there's a there's a big uh horse race in in Melbourne, a bit like the Grand National here and uh the Gold Cup. And um what I did with well, we were doing probability and statistics. So we essentially ran a book on the race. And I they they the the race is on during the day. Um they weren't allowed to watch it, um, but I recorded it. Um I think it was on a on a on a VCR, that's how long ago it was. And yeah, they ran a sort of virtual book, and then we watched the race to see if anybody won anything and had we made any money. So yeah, that was that was probably my most practical lesson. I I used to do skateboarding as well and things when I was doing a bit of physics sometimes. I used to do get the kids to bring in their skateboards, and we'd do skateboarding in the in Newton's equations of motion.

Teaching Stories And Closing Actions

SPEAKER_03 46:16

There is absolutely a full podcast in this, no doubt. So uh go on then Lee, what have you got? Oh, would you indulge me when I have two? Because I can't decide between two. One one isn't teaching, one's assessment, though, to be fair. So teaching, teaching, you'll know that my teaching started off with me teaching plumbing. Yeah. But my my area of specialism, if I if I ever have one, was in lead work, traditional lead work. Uh, and I used to teach lead welding. And it's really important when you when you weld lead that your goggle kind of use is um is absolute. Yeah, you you should never ever ever do it without wearing goggles. But it's really, really difficult to get that across to students because students don't like wearing goggles for the first time. So I would always get them to put their goggles on, there'd be about 10 of them maybe, and I'd start some lead welding, and I'd gradually get them to come in closer and closer until they were looking right over the piece of work that I was doing. And only when I had all of them really in close would I then deliberately dip my welding torch into the pool of molten lead, so it would like explode. And and they'd they'd all like shock backwards, and then I'd ask them to look at their goggles. And when they took their goggles off, they'd obviously be covered in like little lead splats and say, that's why you wear goggles. Because if you weren't wearing your goggles, two or three of you would have lost eyes then. So that that was always quite an impactful way to get the to get the safety thing across. Gwynam has a question.

SPEAKER_04 47:31

Yes, little boy in the corner. Are you seeing a are you seeing a theme here with Lee's swimming training? Chuck him in, life girls will fix it, and drop a welding torch and molten lead. It's the only way they can learn. Lee, I'm like I'm never going to teach me anything. I might die. Health and safety combat.

SPEAKER_03 47:50

So yeah, yeah, I think I think to be fair, my teaching was of a different era, maybe. Um but yeah, but the other one, the other one is um it's more of an assessment example. So when I was on teacher training, I did my teacher training at um it's called the The Tower. High building. We're we're up top of it doing teacher training. And on one of the lessons on assessment, we were asked to design some criteria for assessing a paper airplane. Yeah. So in small groups, we had all done these criteria for a paper airplane, and then amongst the groups, we were then meant to pick the best criteria. Terribly frustrated that my criteria didn't get picked, so so someone's criteria got picked, and then we had to design a paper airplane and it would be assessed against those criteria. So 15 of us, however many, were then kind of diligently building our paper airplanes, and all I did was just screw mine up into a into a ball like that, okay. Um, and then the assessment was to throw the paper airplane. So people threw their paper airplanes, and I just walked across to the window, opened the window, and threw my ball of paper out the window, okay? Because there were criteria like flies the furthest, yeah, flies the straightest, all of those kinds of things. Never in the criteria that was chosen was it looks like an airplane.

SPEAKER_04 49:09

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 49:11

Yeah, yeah, yeah. So um, yeah. So e even at the age of 20, I'd have been 21 or 22 then. I was still an obnoxious um, yeah, quite. Oh Debbie, Debbie, thank you so much for coming on. It's always it's always a pleasure to have you on because the conversation is just so natural, and I know that people are really going to enjoy this. I have two calls for action today, though. The first is the normal call for action, Gwillam, and that's that if our listeners have enjoyed the podcast, then they really do need to leave us a little review so other people can find us. Much, much appreciate that. But the second is obviously if you've listened to this and you're in a position to put in a response on the It Break Education Review, and this has inspired you maybe to think in a particular way, do it. Do it now, because it really, really will matter. Thank you.

SPEAKER_02 49:58

Absolutely. Hold on. Hold on, thank you.