Two IPs In A Pod
Brilliant inventions, fresh product designs, iconic brand names and artistic creativity are not only the building blocks of successful business - they deliver a better world for us all. But these valuable forms of intellectual property must be protected in order to flourish. We are the Chartered Institute of Patent Attorneys - the UK's largest intellectual property organisation. Our hosts Lee Davies and Gwilym Roberts chat with entrepreneurs, creatives, patent attorneys and the occasional judge about how patents, trade marks, designs and copyright can improve our lives and solve problems for humanity.
Two IPs In A Pod
Inside IP Leadership with INTA President Deborah Hampton
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This episode features Deborah A. Hampton in conversation with Gwilym Roberts and Lee Davies, exploring the realities of modern trade mark practice, leadership, and career development within intellectual property.
Deborah reflects on her journey from working as a receptionist in a paralegal department to becoming a global brand enforcement leader and the President of INTA. She discusses how trade mark administrators and IP paralegals play a far more strategic role than often recognised, contributing to brand protection, business decision-making, and stakeholder management at the highest levels.
The conversation also examines practical challenges facing today’s IP professionals, including trade mark infringement, counterfeiting, and managing external counsel effectively. Deborah shares insights into translating complex legal advice into clear business options, building credibility with senior leadership, and why understanding the commercial side of a business is essential for successful trademark practice.
Alongside discussions on leadership through INTA and the future impact of AI on the profession, the episode closes with a candid reflection on resilience, mentorship, identity, and navigating workplace challenges while continuing to grow professionally within the IP community.
Welcome From London And Introductions
SPEAKER_03I got involved with Inter because you know the paralegal profession or the trademark registrating profession is still relatively young.
SPEAKER_00Um and so there were situations where at times attorneys and others didn't necessarily know how to use them or candidly didn't always appreciate what Lee Davis and Gillam Roberts are the two IPs in a pod, and you are listening to a podcast on intellectual property brought to you by the Chartered Institute of Patent Attorneys.
SPEAKER_01So good to have you off. Really excited to have you here. So um how you find the London festival.
SPEAKER_03I love London. I've been here several times, and I feel like I want to come back several times more.
SPEAKER_01Maybe the weather's a bit nice up.
SPEAKER_03Well, you know what? Each time that I've been here, I think I've bring the weather with me because it's been uncharacteristic. Um the forecast was originally green. Yeah. Something's going right. Thank you. Thank you.
SPEAKER_01So tell us a little bit about you and your professional background before we get into the internet stuff.
Acting Like You Belong
SPEAKER_03Sure. Um, so I've been a trademark administrator or a paralegal uh for 43 years. My original intent was to go to law school. So I got a major in political science. I graduated from files with a uh BA in political science. And um, but I wanted to take a year, I guess now I close the gap a year, but I still wanted to be a legal, and I wound up getting a job. Um, or the only job I could really get was as a receptionist in the paralegal department. I had never even heard the term, what they did. Um, and uh a few months in, my supervisor said, What are you doing here? And you need to be doing so much more. And she said suggested that she said, Go get your paralegal certificate. See, you know, then you do that for a couple of years, and if you don't like it, continue on your path to becoming a lawyer. And so I did. And the first job interview I had was with the trademark attorney, wasn't it? Okay, the US truly is history. So I'm not looking back and all, and it's it's been really good. So that's how I got here.
SPEAKER_01What what messages you would you have for people to like do it starting today? So if you start as a parody today, what's your um what's your big tip?
SPEAKER_03Uh my big tip would be work and act as if you already have a seat at the table. Many of us start out thinking, oh, that I can't do that, or it's gonna take me forever. But if you if you start out at least with the confidence, you may not get the seat at the table, but if you start out with the confidence, I I have I will have a seat at this table, then I think the next thing that kicks in is to know what do I need to do to ensure I'm gonna have a seat at this table. So that's the one thing I would tell uh Harold and I would also say to them um we are not support staff. We are part of the staff. And we work we do substantive work. And uh, but we have to carry ourselves in the confidence that we're not administrative. Not that there is anything with administrative support, but we are the backbone of every IP practice, whether it's in-house or outside council.
SPEAKER_01So nice to hear that, because at the Charles Institute of Panzerleads, we've just gone through a process of transforming our previous panel administrators and our IP parallelines. That's what we've gone from our standing start in 2018 of just a handful. So we've spent long a uh qualified IP paralegal members now. That's really something. Yeah.
SPEAKER_02Oh, and everyone knows what keeps the business going. We know it really.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, and and and we know that you all know, but it ironically, sometimes we don't know. You know, I hear a lot of my colleagues say I'm just. You will never hear me say I'm just anything. I am not just.
SPEAKER_02Um, so when you started out, you talked about act like you deserve a seat at the table. Did you, did you, uh this is something you've learned from experience, or did you have that confidence at the episode?
SPEAKER_03Um, it's a great question. So, number one, my mother always said, just do your best, and whatever happens, happens. So I always had that in the back of my mind. Um, but I've always been curious, I've always wanted to be challenged. And with that first position, um we had some type of case. It was in New York where the New York Supreme Court had their attorney was going to court one day. And I said, Can I go? Um so sometimes it was impulse probably, sometimes it was being young and naive and not necessarily knowing. But um, she said, sure. So I showed up. Um today it would probably be considered legally wild, but I had this hot big excuse. I'm here on the court. And when I got it, she said, you're a vision. Years later, I realized that probably can't remember it.
Brand Enforcement And Practical Strategy
SPEAKER_01So it was sticking with the day job. Where do you find yourself today? What's what's not getting company there?
SPEAKER_03Uh so I work for the former company and and this long term, see if I can remember. I've got them down if you could. Yeah, if you might have a little brand.
SPEAKER_01No, global, yeah, so I've got written down global brand enforcement and trademark leader.
SPEAKER_03That's that's that's the data. And so essentially what I do is I I oversee the grant protection portfolio. So I really focus most of the day on brand enforcement and counterfeiting um trademark infringement. There is there's a junior paralegal, she doesn't report to me, but there's a junior paralegal, and she's primarily um responsible for like a trademark renewals, maintenance, those types of things. Um, you know, if the clients are asking for reports, etc. But uh what I'm also trying to do is train her up to the level that I am, but I interact daily with senior uh level uh colleagues in the department I've gone as far as the C-suite. My job is strategy. Yeah, uh and is this gonna work, is it not gonna work? And I I work a lot with our US Council and all about the International Council. And um, yeah, me as your client, um, especially being a trademark administrator, I think at times that they think, I'm just gonna say, do this, and I'm gonna say, okay. Not at all. Not at all. I am I'm outside counseling the worst nightmare. Um, don't give me a cookie cutter, don't give me a template. I I want to know why, pros and cons, but I also want our council, you need to learn our business.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_03You need to learn what our drivers and our factors are, you need to know in terms of the companies that I, I mean the different divisions, what their tolerance level is and you know who their competitors are, because then you're gonna give us better advice. It's to be legal, but it also has to be practical, and that's the other thing. Don't give them five pages. Because number one, I've I've got to summarize what you said to the clients, but number two, where's the business part of it? Yeah.
SPEAKER_02Uh yeah, you know, we know that it's legal, but and that uh yeah, and you you you pick out there quite one of the aspects I think sleepers are really key with our training at every level, which is to remind people it's not an academic question, type. It's a business tool. So you've got to be thinking beyond interesting points of trademark, or it's not what you want to hear.
SPEAKER_03Right exactly. You know, they're they're they're not gonna want to hear if you quote me statue or whatever. Can I do it? Yep, why, why not? If I cannot, what are my options? And um you again, the confidence part comes in. You have to go up to that, you know, into the room or wherever you are, and say, you know, counselor has said, or some, you know, from the general, because I don't practice a lot, and I never want to cross that line. But uh here's the situation, here's your business here. Typically, here are the options. We're working with outside counsel to find out if there's anything else. But yeah, that they're not gonna want to hear, um, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, this, that, this, that, that, da, da, da. How does that help me? Because if we think like business or like the business people that we support, that means if we're not spending a whole lot of money on legal suits and things like that, that's more money that's in the company, that's more money than the company's gonna make, which ultimately means more money that's gonna be in my pocket.
SPEAKER_01So, Deborah, I think you said that you started this July 43 years ago. Is that right? Yeah, yeah. Uh, and I know I read about you that you've been active in Inter for over 40 years.
SPEAKER_03Uh, since nine, well, I've yeah, I've been remembering since 1983, I joined my first community, I think, in 1990.
SPEAKER_01So my my rudimentary math math tells me, I should say math, shouldn't we? Yeah, my rudimentary math tells me that um you got involved really early on in your um in your journey. What so two parts to the question? What made you get involved with Inter? How have you seen it changed in four decades?
SPEAKER_03Um, great question. I got involved with Inter because, you know, the paralegal profession or the trademark historian profession is still relatively young. Um and so there were situations where at times attorneys and others didn't necessarily know how to use us or candidly didn't always appreciate what we brought to the table. But I would meet entered bulletins, and I would always be fascinated because they'd give updates and people moving and things like that. And when they sent out, the first time I got the committee, I think, you know, to fill it out, and I did, and and I was accepted. And that first meeting, it was something. It was was very very high level, but it was about, are you willing to work? They didn't ask me about my title, they didn't, they didn't ask, you know, whether I was a lawyer or uh non-lawyer, it was, are you willing to work? And if you didn't know something, or were you willing to but the and the staff, it was things about the staff that they were very welcoming. So it really became a time to say things, but it also became um a place for me to gain real knowledge.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_03Um, and so the more I did, so I started out, I think, doing table topics. Um, and from there, I would say, I'll host a round table. Uh, and then I wound up, you know, I started going to the conference, and then I wound up being asked to be on a project team for a conference. And then after that, I was like, I'm gonna go to your conference. And I went on doing that. So it was it was kind of progressive, but with all of that, you're meeting people, you're meeting counsel, domestic and international, you're starting to meet your peers, you're starting to meet other attorneys, and there the energy was always a lot, it was always a confined out more things, and they're you know, there are a contingent of us from my generation. And so we've all grown up and got married and had kids and some grandkids, some of them got great-grandkids. Um, but I quickly realized it the community aspect of it was really important, and that's what carried me. And and I mean I gotta go back to my mama because always just do me best. And so that was my MO. I just want to do my best. And if you failed, have a solution. Don't say, oh, I failed, I don't know. No, if I fail at something, that's for sure. I'm gonna be looking for a solution. It may not be the right one, but at least you will have seen that I've I've proactive. So, did I answer both of your questions? Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_01I thought more than someone. I'm not I'm not you still gwinned alongside me, so I have to keep looking at him to see if you need to uh kind of interject at any point. No, no, I've actually just I'm loving the ride actually.
SPEAKER_02So your mother does sound like a very wise person, dude.
Building A Career Through Community
SPEAKER_01I'm making notes of your lessons there, yeah. So at some point then you thought, oh, presidency, I can do that. No, not at all.
SPEAKER_03Not not at all. Um Jay Scott Evans, who was now a past president. I went up getting on the board. Um now I did think I can work on the board, you know, yeah, I could be a good board member. But we were in Phoenix. And I guess we were coming from an event or something, but it was me, him, a bunch of other folks. And for me, it was like out of the blue, he said, you can be president of Inter one day. And I was like, how much of you had to drink? No, because that so wasn't on my radar. It just wasn't. Um and after I got on the board, off the board, uh, then I was nominated to TAC. Uh the US PTO's trade article advisory thing. And there was a dilemma of, hmm, but it never was something that came across my.
SPEAKER_01Well, that's that's you immediately get involved in policy there, isn't it?
SPEAKER_03That's yeah Yeah, and and you know, you were getting involved in policy, but by then, by that time, I I had done a number of different things. And I did a what I call the circuit. A lot of people, a lot of members sometimes they'll they'll stick to, you know, two or three committees and get turned in and then go back. And then I wanted to know everything there was about Intel because I figured if I went through advocacy, resources, and those things that one, I would learn better my job was learn to meet more people, and it would be interesting. Um it's and so things just didn't scare me. They probably should have. Probably should have, but but they didn't. But when Jay Scott said that, I I I really think you're gonna tell what's the truth, though. Um but there was there was a brief period where I thought the kind of the way things were happening and the places that they were I was being put into, I thought, am I an officer dad? Um and then I kind of did start thinking about it, like, hmm, that would be great and all. But then a couple um around 2013, 14, 15, I was like, yeah, that shouldn't say up. I'm good. Um and I pretty much had done all that I wanted to do, or was doing what I wanted to do. So yeah. But here you are, your personal. Oh, sorry, yeah.
SPEAKER_02I was gonna jump in actually a little bit. So how long is it a one-year term? Is it how long is that?
The Long Road To Leadership
SPEAKER_03Okay, so that's a great question. That's a really good, not necessarily simple question. So when you're when you're nominated to become an officer, typically it's become secretary. If you you know you work hard, let's just say you work hard and you're doing really good things and you continue to do good things, the odds are you go from secretary to treasurer to vice president, vice president, president-elect president. Unless I think unless you do something really crazy, it would possibly be like, ooh. Or they might extend that time. Yeah. Or if you at least have the time that I became an officer, if you uh no longer worked for a brand or that would have possible taking off.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_03Um so when you when you're nominated, it it they kind of give you like six years. So it's six years, and then you have a couple more years after, because you be uh immediate past president, then you're chair of the nominee committee, and I think you sit on the board for two. They never let you go. And some people don't want to go. Yeah, yeah, they never let you go. But it it makes sense the progression because you like we by the time you get to president elect you get you get to these roles, to believe roles, because of what you've done. Yeah. But uh you start to see the current people back, and it's like it's so much more so much.
Giving Back Through Mentorship
SPEAKER_02So I kind of follow-on question to that was uh this is my next to it. Better question. Um you've had plenty of time to kind of learn, as you say, all the kind of what goes on the internet and everything else, and also time to think about what you're gonna be doing in your your big year, as it were, you know, your peak year this year. So, what do you what do you what are you like what are your aims, president?
SPEAKER_03What do you want to bring to So that that's a great question. One of the things I always tell people when I when I got the call renominating, I thought about two things. What the subject matter would be for a presidential task force, and what was that gonna wear for my speech? And that was after 20. And that theme has uh continued up until literally last week. Um I have had 43 years thus far of the highs of the high, the lowest of the lows, somewhere in the middle. And all along that journey, I had the the mentor for my very first job is still my mentor. But I've I've gained mentors and friends and supporters and colleagues and all. And um this is it, this is an industry where you don't necessarily go to school and say, I mean, you don't go to school and there's a major in uh intellectual property. You learn on the job. Uh if you have the right teachers, you go with it. If you had bad teachers, you don't know you've had bad teachers. And so I've had tremendously, tremendously, I mean sometimes I forget words, but um it seasoned. But overall, I have this great, I want to give back. I've always been one that um if if I've learned and I've advanced, then why can't I share it? I mean, why can't I pay for it to somebody else? And so um I want to represent enter the best that I can. I want to promote and make sure that our members and the greater community understand what our strategic flame is. And finally, I want to be able to mentor because I've got more years behind than I do here. And um I just want to make sure. Um, I just want to make sure that I pass on knowledge and all. And if anything, so some folks can potentially bypass some of the mistakes that we made.
SPEAKER_01So I mean, what I've heard there, Deborah, is how passionate you are about growing future generations. Yes. Um, what challenges do they fix? What's the future professional look like? And obviously I'm thinking about AI and things like that. But um, yeah, how how how do you imagine the future?
SPEAKER_03Oh actually. For for me, you you know, I started out with um we we didn't have email, we didn't have facts.
SPEAKER_02I was there. Uh although I have facts. I have facts.
SPEAKER_03We we didn't have facts, we didn't have email, certainly didn't have um he's doing the phone.
SPEAKER_02Hi, Jasphine.
Running Smarter Outside Counsel Meetings
SPEAKER_03So it was so much harder. If you think you're doing this globally and you've got time zone issues, mailing issues, etc. So fast forward to now, I See AI in my world. There's always going to be a good human touch to it. But there's a lot of administrative or procedural or broke things that have to be done. If we can harness it in such a way that it can take care of a lot of that, because I don't think it's about losing jobs. I think it's about doing the jobs that are. So I see it in the right hands. And when you do that, then you get an opportunity to promote more innovation and promote more education and get out to either the small medium businesses or single entrepreneurs, but the Fortune 500 corporations. When you look at what we do, sometimes it gets a pencil. The steps we have to go through. As far as professionally, as a non-lawyer, if my hope is that the future is like me, in that I'm highly functioning in what I do. And war can be like that, which means that you get to travel, you get to potentially work with some groundbreaking primes that we can say I was there in the beginning. Um and um it really becomes like a beacon and a mentor for younger folks who may not know, but once I be in all, there's one other quick thing. I was fortunate. I love clothes, I love fashion, I love design, I love reading, I love music. This job has allowed me to combine all of that. Yeah. And and and so, um, but uh fundamentally we do what we do. There's some basics, some there's foundational baselines, that's not gonna change. I think it's gonna be how we interact with it, interact with each other and the tools that we use. It's gonna be all stick in that.
SPEAKER_02Any more for you, Girl? That's one one. Yeah, correct. So obviously you're in London, you've got about eight million other people at Inter as well. Are you having any meetings with your clients while you're here or is it you focusing on your interest?
SPEAKER_03Uh uh mostly focusing on uh inter We have outside council meetings tomorrow because this is a term that I learned uh when I first started coming to the hearing meeting. First, I ran around to wherever the outside council was because they said, let's meet at 8 a.m. across town. I said, okay. And then after a couple years of doing that, I said, wait a minute.
SPEAKER_02Who's paying the bills here?
SPEAKER_03We're the claims. Um but yeah, I'm the one running around, you know, accommodating. So I adopted, try to get them all in, either on the first day or the second day. Uh um, and or here's my window. If you can make that window, we're good. The second thing I did was things are going well, no real complaints, I'm willing to see you. Go meet with someone else. And and then the other thing is I learned a lot of time they show up, or more importantly, they wouldn't show up. The junior associate or the associate, someone who's only been out there a couple of years, and then again, I told you I'm the worst client. Um I'll I'll I'm looking for some self-standing. So I would normally say, This is what you're gonna do, because I know you have you running all over with the city meeting everyone up, go in that corner and sleep without what if we're supposed to meet for an hour, go in the corner for an hour.
Resilience, Identity, And Microaggressions
SPEAKER_01Best meeting ever. So Deborah, thank you so much for taking time out of your incredibly busy share truck tape to meet. Before we let you go, um, is there anything to thinking, oh, glad they didn't ask me that? What's what what what's on your mind that you might want to share with us?
SPEAKER_03Uh what's in my mind that I I want to share. You know, um sometimes I'm an elephant in the room in that really they're not allowed to look like me, even in 2026.
SPEAKER_01Um and some sometimes that's hard. No, no one listening knows what you look like, by the way.
SPEAKER_03So um, as an African American, as an African American, you know, I started out in they were hardly. I am right. Um and you can they can become weighed down by the responsibility I'm an African American, I'm a woman, and you can that can overtake you, or you can say, what my mother said, just do your best, um, and the rest will follow. It has not been easy. Um, and there there are times when no matter what I do, how I say, like if I'm quiet, I can potentially be angry. If if I'm too smiley, um not serious enough. Uh a lot of microaggressions, you have to learn how to deal with it. And you can either let the control your life or you control it. Because in my case, it's not just work. Um, this is not gonna change. My little skin is not gonna change. I'm dealing with that at work, the grocery store, etc. Um, and you just gotta have really good people around you. And uh the blind case, the other thing is face. Uh you know, God's not being here for a reason, he's giving me the tools, and um much is given, much is required. Um, but sometimes it is hard. Uh but it perseveres. Yeah, he persevere. So and I have JC. You have JC.
Final Reflections And Thanks
SPEAKER_01You have JC. We all we all need uh JC. Yes. Uh we should we should say that John Claude and not uh not your fight. Yeah, but thank you so much. It's been an absolute pleasure, and I hope you enjoyed the rest of your time at it.
SPEAKER_03Oh, thank you so much for this opportunity. I so appreciate it that you you know wanted to meet with me. And uh it's for me it's an honor because with all of this, um at times it just seems like it's really happening. It's really good.