Two IPs In A Pod
Brilliant inventions, fresh product designs, iconic brand names and artistic creativity are not only the building blocks of successful business - they deliver a better world for us all. But these valuable forms of intellectual property must be protected in order to flourish. We are the Chartered Institute of Patent Attorneys - the UK's largest intellectual property organisation. Our hosts Lee Davies and Gwilym Roberts chat with entrepreneurs, creatives, patent attorneys and the occasional judge about how patents, trade marks, designs and copyright can improve our lives and solve problems for humanity.
Two IPs In A Pod
Protecting IP Across Borders: Insights
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Recorded at INTA, this latest episode explores the challenges businesses face when protecting and enforcing intellectual property rights overseas, and the practical steps organisations can take to strengthen their international IP strategy.
Kayleigh Nauman, Adin Samson, and Samuel Stone discuss the risks businesses can encounter when expanding internationally, from trademark disputes and enforcement costs to misconceptions around automatic IP protection across borders. The conversation also covers strategic trademark filing in the US, post-Brexit IP considerations in Europe, the role of the Unitary Patent and UPC, and why China requires a tailored enforcement approach.
With practical guidance on building a strong international IP strategy, this episode offers valuable insights for businesses looking to support growth, investment, and global expansion.
Welcome And Setup
SPEAKER_04So let's start from the top then. There will be people listening who don't necessarily know what the IP attache network is, what it sets out to address, what your kind of problems are, your challenges, the stuff that you get involved in. So big big question, who else to pick out this?
SPEAKER_00Lee Davis and Willem Roberts are the two IPs in a pod, and you will listen to a podcast on intellectual property brought to you by the Chartered Institute of Patent Attorneys.
SPEAKER_04Well, last podcast of the day for me. I'm doing it on my own because my um partner in podcasting, Gullen Roberts, has decided that he would run away and leave me because he's got client meetings to attend to, and that's what it's about, really, isn't it? So um so fair play, Gulem. Uh, hope it's going really, really well for you. I've got the best podcast till last though. So you missed a treat, mate. You missed the treat because I'm sat in the inter-podcasting booth with three of the top um IP attaches. Um so lovely to have you all with me. This works best if I get you to introduce yourselves, if that's okay, because it kind of gets your voices into the podcast and stuff. So,
Meet The IP Attaches
SPEAKER_04Kaylee, should we start with you? Is that okay?
SPEAKER_01Yeah, so Kaylee Numin. I am at the uh UK IPO's North American Intellectual Property Attache, meaning that I cover the US, Canada, and Mexico very much um in that order. I've been in the role for almost seven years now. Wow. I'm the first and only at the moment to have served in North America.
SPEAKER_04So you say first and only, does that mean there might be more than one?
SPEAKER_01I mean, I suppose eventually I might leave maybe one day in the far, far away future. Um, but yeah, at the moment, um only wanted to have served in the pumps.
SPEAKER_04I didn't know you're suggesting like a clone or something like that. So there are multiple use.
SPEAKER_01I could really use the support. Maybe we should try to make that happen. Yeah.
SPEAKER_04And I only because my host CD will drop me on the benefit, don't do it clockwise. Aiden. So I tell you about yourself, sir.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, thanks very much for having me here. Um good location, right next to IPO's booth over there. Um I'm Aidan Sampson. I am the IPO's Europatache. Um, I'm based in Brussels, uh, but I cover uh the EU and the EU institutions, but also wider Europe as well. Um I'm also the first Europe tache, the uh first IPO's Europatache. Um hopefully not the last one. Um but uh it was a post that was created um post-Brexit, as of course we needed to work on implementing our trade and cooperation agreement with the EU, but also generally resetting the relationship with the EU institutions and then sort of widening the process of the process of the project. No pressure then. No pressure at all. Yeah, it's been quite um quite a religious, I think. Yeah.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, and thank you for for setting the context because I normally would ask multiple and use the word Europe by then asked them which of the multiple versions of Europe is the geographical exactly, the political, the economical.
SPEAKER_02I I I don't exactly know how many countries are in my portfolio because sometimes it it varies a little bit, you know. Um but uh I've had some conversations with um one of our other attachers about where where the border of Europe ends, you know, and where where other other regions begin. But I I focus myself in uh in Brussels anyway. Cool.
SPEAKER_03And finally, Sam. Finally, so I'm Samuel Stern. Um, it's fantastic to be back again for the second appearance for us on on this podcast. So I am the attache to China, or I was until about a month ago. Yeah, I was surprised to see you here. So this is my last hurrah. Uh uh and nice to be able to step back into the the role again to talk about um uh the last four and a half years or so. I was out there.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, first time I met you, it was across the camera in lockdown, yeah.
SPEAKER_03In the middle of uh COVID-China restrictions. So I was there four and a half years, and I just got back. And um actually the post in China has existed for uh quite a while. I I believe it was our first attached post. You can imagine it's a big market, it's a market that lots of UK companies care about, it's a market that was changing very quickly and you know has lots of existing issues, sort of priority market. It's still um it's it's an attached team out there. So there were four of us. Um three, three still exist, even though I've left because they're they're in their local staffs, they're engaged locally. Gotcha, they've got that expertise of the market, how IP works out there, yeah. Um and then I will have a replacement China attache coming in very shortly.
SPEAKER_04Excellent. We'll look look forward to that. And apologies, of course you I could do stand without asking you whether you'll stand or stand hills though, is it's not a good idea. Oh, but it's all right. I'm normally standing on the I'll correct that immediately then. No, no, no, no, no, no, no. I'm I'm just it's the end of the day, I'm tired. Normally I ask people just slipped off the tongue. So but apologies for that. So um so let's start
What The Attache Network Does
SPEAKER_04from the top then. There will be people listening who don't necessarily know what the IP attache network is, what it sets out to address, what your kind of problems are, your challenges, the stuff that you get involved in. So big, big question, who wants to pick it up first?
SPEAKER_03Yeah, so I was I was hoping that we could start with a bit of an overview of the attache network. Um partly we want to get the message out, right, of who we are and what we do. So a really good opportunity to frame it like that up front. So the IPO has essentially this attache network uh globally, and that essentially means liaison officers that are based overseas in some of our priority markets. Um they're based usually in embassies, high commissioned missions, and then they can represent IPO and they can also um work together with the other departments that are out there, yeah. Department for Business and Trade, uh uh Foreign and Common Master Development Office to kind of support. I can ask that question, actually.
SPEAKER_04So is it an apologies for me being cutting in the way you're doing your explanation, but um is it is it uh an IPO post? Is it FCDO posts?
SPEAKER_03Yeah, it's an I they're IPO posts. So we we use the embassies or the missions as a platform, gotcha. And yeah, but it's still really we think of it as UK ITO stuff. So they are primarily there to work on IP and one um uh one support the IPO abroad. Yeah. And so there's uh I say it's a global network. I think there's um eight different regional locations where we're based. So that includes uh China, North America, Europe. We also have Latin America, India, um, one person in Middle East and covering North Africa. Um we have two posts in Southeast Asia, although one is vacant at the moment, and then we've also got two posts in Geneva to work on the multilateral side of feed that uh who we do quite a lot of work with, actually, because it's yeah, it's been it's been a really, really, really important um area of work for us at the moment around, particularly around the anti-pattern narratives and stuff like that.
SPEAKER_04So, yeah, it's been a really good network.
SPEAKER_03And then I can just say a little bit quickly about so what you know, why do we exist? What kind of problem are we there to solve, if you will? So um one for UK exporters, so especially SMEs, you can imagine navigating overseas markets can be very uh complicated and difficult. They might need guidance, they might benefit from information about the risks or the issues, they might require support when they run into it, it shows. So that's the first one. And then the second one is um so that we can um have a certain degree of policy influence so that UK um IP priorities will be sort of represented in global uh rulemaking. So I think the others will can definitely touch on sort of the specifics of what we might do in the role, but just as a at a high level, think of us as we're the sort of attachment network, is like the boots on the ground for IPO, so that we can have um sort of experts in country, they can be closer to the IP authorities there, they can be closer to the procedures, the problems, and that way they can give support to UK businesses. And they can also help to advance those UK IP uh policy interests with foreign government as a international organisation.
SPEAKER_04God that's that's my honest nutshell. It's a very large nut. But thanks, thanks.
What Attaches Do And Do Not Do
SPEAKER_04So next one then is I mean, what on a on a daily basis, how does that translate into the kinds of things that uh tache do, and perhaps equally importantly, what they don't do?
SPEAKER_01Well, the best part about that answer is that it varies pretty dramatically by posting. Um so you know, I think I can say further confidently that Aiden and I's roles and maybe Lizzie a little bit in this bucket too, are a lot more similar than a lot of the other postings, wherein we're in very much diplomacy role, interacting with local authorities, you know, we're talking policy developments. I'm, you know, certainly not going to United States or Canada and telling them that they could enforce their IT better or asking them to change any of their laws for a number of reasons, being, of course, that's they're pretty solid and you know, we're not trying to find our partners. Um you like giving that. Yeah, great benefits. Yeah. Um, you know, so our work, I would say, um, you know, is not necessarily high level, but it's really at that level of sort of evaluating sort of the wider picture and how does the UK best fit into it? Where can we be of assistance? I know, I know that you and I have talked in the past about how I've um, you know, helped coordinate with congressional staff and ICO to sort of talk about some of our own systems like website blocking, like our iPad, um, you know, versus our colleagues, say, in China or in India and in Latin America, who I think are much more in that position of working really in-depth with local governments. You know, my colleague in Brazil has brought delegations of judges out to meet with judges here in the UK. She's brought delegations to meet with PIP who's she's helped participate in raids, much to our line manager's consternation. Umforcement. Um, you know, there's also a lot more of that in-depth um SME support and you know, really helping address enforcement challenges or even just trying to understand the complexities of applying, you know, the wait times in Brazil, in particular, to my knowledge, for like a trademark application, are very, very long. There's a very long backlog. So helping navigate in that space and knowing like what response, you know, when it really is time to sort of feedback into that process as the applicant and sort of all of these details. Um, so it can vary quite dramatically. Um, I was hired to work on our bilateral trade negotiations with the US. At the time, I was the only post that was doing so, but then our previous India Tache Prague did a lot of work on um the India FTA, our colleague Diviat has sort of picked up now that it's been done and is starting to help support sort of the enforcement work. I believe the China posting will be getting involved in that pretty soon here, it looks like maybe a couple of the others. So um, it's also been interesting for a few of our colleagues who've been opposed a little longer, who are sort of now in this role where they might be pivoting a little bit into sort of a more joint sort of policy from that trade angle, but then of course continuing their other efforts. So um it, you know, we're all sort of dexival trades as well. But in terms of what we don't do, um, you know, none of us are able to provide legal advice. We, of course, are not talking to anyone in particular, um, the particular one talk between us and me and saying, like, you absolutely need to do this thing. Yeah, you know, we we have to, of course, keep in mind that we are we are government officials. Um and, you know, especially for those of us who are maybe in countries that are a little bit more politically sensitive at the moment, there's also, of course, that that knowing how to sort of delicately handle whatever situation you're in, you know, with the exception of the China Post, everyone is locally engaged at the embassies in terms of the IT attaches. The China Post is the only one that has support staff to my knowledge as well. So you have a lot of local experts on the ground, um, you know, doing doing our best to be everywhere at once.
SPEAKER_04Sounds sounds like it's a busy, very gig.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, it really is.
China Post And SME Support
SPEAKER_03Can I just China specifically, just because it is, yeah, it's fascinating how different it is. Well, like Southeast Asia, for example, is holding a relationship with so many IP office. In China, the business support angle of it, like you said, supporting SMEs, Kaylee, is is huge. And absolutely right, we're not uh giving uh legal advice, but then on the other hand, I would say the team so we we on average we get more than a hundred direct queries from SMEs and other businesses a year. So the team is dealing with a real, a whole variety of different cases and they're building expertise. So although they can't, they're not that lawyer that will give you advice on what to do, they can give you a lot of context about what issues across that uh crop up and how you might resolve them and where you can go.
SPEAKER_01And maybe why you've been asked this weird question by the IP agency in question that you wouldn't have anticipated. For contrast, I speak to like 15 to 20 SMEs individually every year in the US and North America. So huge difference.
SPEAKER_04Imagine I'm uh kind of young, frosting UK business, entrepreneurial business. Can't do it. No, no, no, no, no. Yeah. As the words were tripping out of my mouth. As the words were tripping out of my mouth, I thought, no, no, no, I'm I'm setting a kind of my other chip in the basket. But uh spin belief momentary, put yourself to their place.
US Market Shocks For SMEs
SPEAKER_04So Kaylee, what if and I'm I'm gonna launch in the US. What's gonna shock me? What's gonna feel a bit different from life in the UK?
SPEAKER_01Yeah, I mean it it would depend on what your business either doing in the UK. So I talked to a lot of UK Sunnies who hadn't actually anticipated that exporting might be part of their business model. So they've been thinking very, very local. Um, I think it goes without saying that the UK is much smaller than the United States. Yeah, yeah, not quite as litigious. Um, so I actually talked, one of the first things I talk to businesses about, of course, is what kind of IT do you already have in the UK and how long has it been registered for? Um, if you've had a patent in the UK for a decade, you were long past the opportunity of registering that patent in the United States, you know, and then we can talk about sort of what other options might be available in terms of protecting your rights overseas. But sort of the thing I see most consistently is that um UK SMEs in particular seem to really rely on common law trademarks here in the UK. Um, but obviously the US is huge, and the US trademark registry has a number of um trademark registered. And so one of the first things we talk about really is how important it is to have that trademark presence in the United States, not only to be able to enforce in case someone you know violates it in the future. Um, but for example, the very first SME I ever worked with in the US had been operating in the UK and EU for over a decade at that point, um, had been operating in the US for two months and received a cease and desist from Intel, who had a subsidiary with a similar but not quite the same mark. Um and of course they couldn't afford to really you know do anything subtitle about that. They had to rebrand. And obviously that's a huge cost. They probably lost a lot of customers who didn't understand what was going on. You know, they had just relocated a huge part of their workforce to the US. Um, you know, so it's it's also important in order to make sure that you are able to, you know, have that chance without sort of stumbling along the way. Um so I talked a lot with my with SMEs too about you know the Madrid treaty and various ways of you know registering in multiple places at once so that while it's a slightly increased cost on the onset, it does reduce that administrative burden for them. Um the other key thing, you know, on trademarks in the US too. Here you can just register a mark. In the US, you have to prove you're using it in commerce.
SPEAKER_04Yeah.
SPEAKER_01Following the approval of a number of erroneous applications from China, you now have to list a local attorney.
SPEAKER_04That's that's a state issue as well, because I think we're all experienced.
SPEAKER_01Yes, but to the US extent, it was it was clearly very targeted.
SPEAKER_04Okay.
SPEAKER_01There have been a number of congressional hearings about the state.
SPEAKER_03Do you not stop this Samuel? Uh not only is it maybe difficult to stop it, but it's quite hard to understand in terms of what's driving it. Yeah. So there's maybe a few different factors behind it that really interests.
SPEAKER_01Certainly the US perspective was that there was this really strong attempt to sort of make the USIP IT regime sort of worthless, and then maybe to sort of reduce the pressure on Chinese, what has been perceived in the US as Chinese forecast transfer and trade secret theft. Um, this was all about the time I started in 2019. So it was at the time um a really substantive conversation. But of course, I think six months after they imposed this rule, they did a review, and most of the attorneys listed were actually dead. So it's not necessarily been as highly effective as um PTO.
SPEAKER_03That was mainly aimed at the decluttering the register.
SPEAKER_01That was part of it. Um I think also that was that they if they even if they approved something that way, they could still retroactively go, actually, now we've had another look at this, and they have a means of getting a hold of you if you're you're based in another country. Um, because of course I think part of the issue was they tried to contact some of these businesses and go figure those phone numbers aren't real, or it is a real address, but it's not at all affiliated with what the application was for. You know, these are definitely things we see here too, but definitely not to the extent that the US saw it.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, yeah. So continuing with the disbelieving kind of aspect, maybe in a uh entrepreneurial business. Give me give me a couple of top tips, two, three top tips for wanting to break into the US market.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_04In in whether that's um US, whether that's Canada, whether that's Mexico.
SPEAKER_01I mean, if you're gonna operate in Canada, you might as well also just be assuming you'll operate in the US. Right, okay. You know, the um the USNCA formally NAFTA relationship certainly has sort of made that very, very fluid. And um we actually had a meeting um recently with Etienne, who's the head of the Canadian Intellectual Property Office, and he said that the majority of Canadians are filing in the US and the majority of filings in Canada are American companies. So um it's it's completely kind of more fluid than you would expect. You know, certainly the number one recommendation, you know, really look into registering a trademark. It's just so crucial to your success to be able to show that this is your brand, that these are your materials, not only to enforce, but also to protect again, it's potentially stepping on someone's toes who has a much bigger war chest. Yeah. Um, but when we talk about other bits of IP to register, you know, it's it really comes down to what the SME is going to be able to afford to enforce in the future and it's going to want to enforce in the future. Um, so while it seems like a great idea to register absolutely every relevant trademark or every possible patent or to find an equivalent for every possible design right that you might have in the UK. Because of course we don't have design rights proper in the US. Um, there's sort of no point in registering them all if you can't enforce it.
SPEAKER_05Yeah. Right.
SPEAKER_01So you gotta prioritize what's gonna make the most sense for you, you know, and and really sort of have that strategy to the best of your ability. Because of course, sometimes you're just never gonna know.
SPEAKER_04I mean you're growing that new business, so quantifying that on a balance sheet can be really difficult, kind of. That's that's a great idea.
SPEAKER_01Well, there's actually another um UK brand that I've worked with, um, who uh funnily enough, I had come across them quite a bit in my personal life. But when I spoke to them, they had had their mark registered in the US already, but a Chinese entity filed their mark as their brand name with USA added onto the index. They were talking to their US attorney who goes, Oh, I didn't know you were gonna register this. And they went, What are you talking about? Um and happily in that instance, because China has been such a central focus of the US government for a moment, there's now like a China-specific email address at the patent work office. So they were able to go down that route to report this, and of course they sent an MOU, or I believe a C C desist rather, um, to the finely entity. But um there's that it also gives you that much more legitimacy that you can say, like, no, look, this is clearly our same brand. You know, we didn't attack on this end, bit, this is a completely different entity. So it also gives you that leverage because there are sort of particularly in trademarks in the US now, some um less time and they're time intensive, but they're not financially intensive.
SPEAKER_04Yeah. Um now sort of going down that route.
Working With EU Institutions
SPEAKER_04So I did let's kind of reel you into the podcast today because you've been even sat there. Uh I know you're a champion a little bit, so uh to come into it. So what what does engagement with EU institutions look like kind of on a day-to-day basis? How how how does your gig play out?
SPEAKER_02Um yeah, so uh the EU institutions are engagement is um I think for multiple purposes. I mean, firstly, it's a part of uh resetting uh the UK EU relationship. Yeah. Um and very clearly this government um is keen to uh promote closer ties um with with the EU. Um it's about sharing Sharing best practices and experience. There are a number of areas where we are looking at policy and the EU is looking at policy. If you think about AI copyright, you think about standard essential patents, both of us are making forays into those into those areas and is worth um talking and sharing experience and expertise. And it's about ensuring that policy developments and legislative developments within the UK are also explained fully to the EU so that they do not see European businesses as facing unnecessary additional barriers in the UK. And I think it's also about um implementing also, of course, the uh UK EU trade cooperation agreement, which is R FTA with with the EU. So I I mean that's what that's what the engagement looks like. It's um you know the EU institutions, there's there's multiple different institutions. I mean primarily the Commission is is the key one um which which we need to work with. But again, even there, there's um the splits you have uh DJ Grow, which does most of the industrial property rights, DJ Connect, which covers copyright trade, it looks at the TCA, a trade cooperation agreement. Um so there's different bits there that you need to work with. You've got parliament, you've got the council, which is the member states.
SPEAKER_04There's a whole it's it's a very confusing mess of uh can I can I tease it out a bit more because it gets further confused, doesn't it, by the fact that you've got um so you've got the um EU IPOs, trademarks design sitting kind of centrally within the union. Then you've got the European Patent Office, which doesn't fit within it at all. Yeah. Then you've got the UPC, which is an EU thing, but not all of the EU.
SPEAKER_02Yeah I I that must make the job quite a jigsaw. Absolutely. I I've never come across a body quite like the UPC before. I don't think there's anything similar um in other policy areas. But yeah, the fact that it's um administered by the EPO, but um, you know, uh works under EU law and and and uh answers to the CJEU, I think is quite uh quite a unique thing. And then of course you have I think it's 18 EU member states are currently part of the UPC, so not all EU member states are in it, but um I I think you know for British business, it is obviously a very clear advantage that there is a level of regional harmonisation within the EU. So you can apply to the UIPO for your trademarks and designs and get them protected across um 27 countries. You can um get a European patent, which is you know a bundle of patents um in in however many countries there are in the EPO right now. Um, and then you can get this the Unitary pattern, the European patent with Unitary effect, which um gets you one patent right across um 18 countries. Maybe by the time this podcast is out, like there will be more, but who knows? Um so I mean that's that's yeah, very clear. Yeah, we'll go to that quickly, yeah. Yeah, yeah. Um but uh yeah, I think maybe sort of one thing I would add is is you know the the difference between in you know Europe and and other regions, not necessarily all of Europe, but if we're thinking of the EU, um there's obviously a very strong um IP framework there, very similar to our own, but there are some differences. And I think maybe what the kind of the key mistake maybe that some businesses make is that they think that the EU UK trade and cooperation agreement has got stuff on intellectual property in it, therefore, well, presumably my rights are protected in in the EU if they're protected in the UK, which is not the case. Yeah, it it has minimum standards for um protection, but the rights are not automatically sort of transferred over.
SPEAKER_04And that I mean that's quite difficult, isn't it, for businesses trying to grow into Europe in terms of understanding how that plays out.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. Yeah, no, absolutely. But um, I mean, I think the good thing about this region is that there is a ton of information online. Um, the EU loves that. Websites are full of information, so like very, very easy to find stuff. Um, and you know, there is a changing landscape in particular um in sort of Eastern Europe. The legislative frameworks are changing as countries are trying to align more with the EU. Um, but I think that's you know owned to the benefit of uh British business, really.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, and um so we certainly see the UPC, you touched on UPC. Uh we certainly see that as a great success. I mean we were uh kind of campaign. But hard for it to happen, but the the uh UK professionals kept within site uh UPC in terms of them patent attorneys and retaining their right audience, and we've been able to use that as a big lever to to really advance UK litigators in the UPC.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, yeah. Well, I mean, yeah, it's very clearly important for for UK litigators to be able to access it. Um you know, it remains an extremely important organ with within within Europe. Um and yeah, I think it's right that that we ensure that uh that UK businesses access it. Yeah.
SPEAKER_04Samuel, back over to you, sir.
China Enforcement Routes Explained
SPEAKER_04So similar questions really, but for uh for China, so and how does this all play out from a sort of like a Chinese perspective? What what mistakes maybe to the businesses make when they're trying to break into the market? How do you guys help them?
SPEAKER_03Yeah, so like I said, definitely quite a strong focus on that for the the China team. It's very much around um it's split between engaging with government and policy work, but then maybe about half of the work will be really focused on uh supporting businesses. So from a kind of a general IPO perspective, we would have general advice for people going out to countries, right? And and you might have heard one of our slogans is sort of know before you go. Yeah, yeah. So IP is territorial, therefore, you know, you need to understand uh the differences, the similarities in the market you're going to overseas, and you need to understand the kind of the landscape that you're going into. Now that's really I mean, that's a really big one for China because there are so many barriers for SNEs to go into China anyway, whether it's the sort of the language, the distance, the culture, yeah, procedural side of it. So I think understanding China, even you know, it sounds silly to say when you tell people, you know, the scale China is big. Everyone knows that, right? They know it's a it's a big economy, it's geographically big, there's lots of people, people know that, but that has a real impact on even protecting IP. Yeah. Because the IP administrations, it has an impact on how they are um examining, granting the enforcement bodies, it has uh an impact on the court cases. Because it's such a large area, uh, you know, a large country with different provinces, you'll get a lot of regional variation as well. Sure. So I think it's really about, I mean, not over an overestimating in every respect, because in some ways China is similar. Broadly, the same IP rights um that you can expect that would be protected in the UK. It's also a first-to-register um jurisdiction for trademark, for example. But I think it is very important to understand the differences. So one that comes to mind is enforcement. Gayle, you were talking about kind of SMEs needing to have a forward plan, right, for how they're going to enforce and whether they have the budget. And in China, it's all the different enforcement bodies, and how do you engage with them and even the routes that are available? So in China, um, in the UK, we sort of think of civil and criminal, and then in China that it's a very much a three-track model where you've also got an additional administrative route. Okay, yeah. So you can go straight to the administrative body, you can often get very quick, um, kind of quicker decisions and quicker action, but less strong deterrent remedies than say a court or the sure as professional advice has got a role to play there to make sure you shoot off the right course. Yeah, I would say, yeah. So that would be another one of my main points, absolutely, would be that okay, you have to understand the market and do your due diligence. You have to do that all on your own. In fact, just as we would say in the UK, you know, you should probably use a patent attorney to get a patent attending. There you go. Um, we would also say the same for some of these markets that you're going to be less familiar with. Yeah, you're going to China. It's really important to have China-specific expertise, whether you're building that in-house, whether you've got a partner in the country, or whether you're going out for professional legal advice that can advise you on some of those points.
SPEAKER_04So if you could give like a board-level message to UK firms about China and IP, what would it be? What should what kind of business leaders we think about?
SPEAKER_03Yeah. So maybe maybe all the other attaches would say this about their own uh their own jurisdiction. But I would say number one, you really have to tailor your approach to the China market. You can't just, if you've got a global approach as a company for your IP strategy, you can't just copy, you know, take your approach from the US or from Europe. Yeah, so there's no template. Yeah. You need to think about it specifically and not just assume it will operate in the same way. Um you need to consider the specific risks, the market. You need to understand um the people that are in your area, the competitors, uh, the potential infringers are really important. And um I uh we've already talked about it, but it would come in, it would 100% be in the top message would be get the legal advice or the child expertise. I think incredibly um essential for China. I think we all we all have the same advice definitely.
SPEAKER_02I totally agree. There's like an attache page on the gov.uk website where we each give advice, and I think all of our advice is all right.
SPEAKER_03Well, in that case, that was generic advice. Yeah, specifically.
SPEAKER_04Right.
Final Tips And Useful Resources
SPEAKER_04So we're coming towards the end of the podcast. If Gwynam was here with me now, I'd be telling you on the timekeeper and stuff like that. But he's not, so I'm telling myself on the timekeeper. I'm gonna give you like uh elevator pitch, yeah. Uh maybe you're on the dragon stand, but you're gonna get out of the elevator, you've got your dragon set set in front of you. So and I'm gonna go anti-clockwise this time, which I know it doesn't really matter to people listening because I don't know how to what's that. Um I'm gonna start with you, Samuel, first. And that's like so you've got your animator pitch. What's your top tip for UK businesses protecting IP overseas?
SPEAKER_03Okay, so I would say, and and I'm coming at this from an angle of lots of the companies that struggle with the IP protection overseas, it's SMEs particularly. Yeah. So kind of thinking about them, um, I would say think about your IP strategy early. And there's a number of benefits to that. First of all, you can uh ward off some of these potential issues. We've talked about the risks and the mitigation, enforcement, and you can get all of that in place and avoid problems that are in the line. But there's an added benefit that it will also help you if you have these, you know, you've got registered rights, you've got perhaps a portfolio of IP, that will also help you to attract investment. Uh, because we know that investors will look at um intangible assets and especially a mix of rights um will make you really attractive for funding, for example. And then my other uh top point would be to think about your IP strategy holistically. Yeah, I think we touched a bit on that today. So um thinking about your key markets for export and so and maybe even the key markets that will come up in the future as well. Thinking about your supply chain, your key markets, where you might go, and making sure that you've got an IP strategy that is kind of embedded in your business growth strategy perfect, not just a bolt on. Thank you. Brilliant.
SPEAKER_04So, Aidan, you can't play what song was together, okay?
SPEAKER_05Don't be all right.
SPEAKER_02I was I was literally taking a mental note of exactly what you said about to say. I'm getting a maternity first. Um okay, dragons. I would say dragons first, you know, calm down, don't be saying mean dragons. That's what I would say first. Um, and then I would say, um I think it's really important to not assume that because it's the EU that everything is completely harmonised and you should have you know the same approach in each country. That is absolutely not the case. Yes, there are some levels of harmonisation. We've gone through some of them um just now, um, but each country operates in slightly different ways. There are different enforcement landscapes in different countries, um, different judicial landscapes in each country. Um, so you do need to think about that when you're when you're doing it, it's not necessarily a one-size um fits-all approach um to each European country. Um, and then you look at uh other non-European countries, you know, very different priorities and different ones. Um, but again, important to really sort of consider how their landscapes um might be changing and how to do business in those countries. Um and then I'd say sort of look at the opportunities as well that that that we're creating now. I think so today, Prime Minister announced um they were gonna uh stop negotiations on on joining um Scale Up Europe fund in the EU, and we've joined Horizon Europe as well, and and those you know create opportunities for um sort of for for businesses that are that are innovative in particular um to get new funding. Um and as as um as Samuel just said, you know, IP is an asset, protect your IP and it will enable you to improve your business and to get more funding and to uh and to be more investable. Thank you so much.
SPEAKER_04Um really sorry for Kaylee. Um not okay, I've a lot of things. No, that's because you've got pits to sharks and got dragons, haven't you? Is it still sharks in those nights?
SPEAKER_01Um I think you're right. I think it is sharks. Um, you know, it's it's interesting. I think we learn every I we've done IT attache week amongst the attaches uh since I've been in this in this world two years twice. And it's always funny to me because I think we all think of our markets as being very different. And obviously they are, but we have, I think, more overlap than we ever realized. You know what I mean? So, you know, certainly I would echo a lot of what Samuel said, or all of what Samuel said. But you know, if you're looking at the US market in particular, one of the first things I actually recommend for SMEs is that they utilize all of the HMG resources available to them. So I send them to the DDT Export Academy all the time. Innovate UK Edge has some really great resources. Um, and in part, that's also because they have local partners. So in the US, for example, the Buy America presence is a really big deal. And if you can find an American partner to work with, it can make that groundwork uh all the easier to get over there, right? And you know, if nothing else, you can also then probably speak to other businesses who have done similar things in terms of what kind of market you're working in as you export to the US and kind of get an idea of what that landscape will look like and challenges that other businesses face that maybe they figure out how to navigate. And now you don't have to do that. Um, but I would also, when you're looking at the US, encourage SMEs in the UK in particular to be um, I guess, more flexible is the best way to put it. You know, tech companies always think of Silicon Valley. Silicon Valley is now incredibly expensive. It is inundated with business, right? It is highly, highly competitive because of it. But they've been that, you know, the tech presence in the US has been growing. You now have a lot of energy tech in Houston. You see a lot more startups actually setting in Montana because it's so cheap. There's a lot of folks who are setting up that side of Atlanta now. Um, obviously, if you're in the creative space, you think LA, but you could also go to Memphis, you could go to Austin. So um the, you know, by all means, as they're starting to focus, pick what makes the most sense to you. But if you find an opportunity elsewhere, you know, don't lift your nose at it and think it's it's not going to be the right place. Or, you know, because the US is really good, it's easy to think, well, no, because I'm gonna be too far removed. Chances are you're not. Chances are there are people who have relocated from where you wanted to be, who have those connections, and then your base of operations is not only more affordable, but then you you might actually find that you have more opportunities than you anticipate.
SPEAKER_04Brilliant. Great place to end. So thank you all for sharing your time with me and Nockwillam. Uh on the podcast. In fact, I'm I'll have to move work with him because I think the last time you came over at Satch, but I don't, I think it was my um Deputy Neil that was on that podcast. It wasn't his. So it's not it's not about you. It's not about you. I promise you this. Thank you so much. Uh I really enjoyed that. Thank you so much.