Two IPs In A Pod
Brilliant inventions, fresh product designs, iconic brand names and artistic creativity are not only the building blocks of successful business - they deliver a better world for us all. But these valuable forms of intellectual property must be protected in order to flourish. We are the Chartered Institute of Patent Attorneys - the UK's largest intellectual property organisation. Our hosts Lee Davies and Gwilym Roberts chat with entrepreneurs, creatives, patent attorneys and the occasional judge about how patents, trade marks, designs and copyright can improve our lives and solve problems for humanity.
Two IPs In A Pod
Design Law Problems and Plumbing Disasters with Matthew Ridley
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In another Pubcast from the archives, Lee and Gwilym chat with Matthew Ridley about what happens when a system built for speed meets modern online marketplace takedowns, where a registration number can trigger removals that feel like an instant injunction.
We start with the human side, discussing how Matt found the patent attorney profession, what the UK exams taught him compared with the EQEs, and why design work can be such a mental shift from patents. From there, we move into the policy work Matt does as chair of CIPA’s Designs and Copyright Committee, including why Brexit-era changes pulled practitioners closer to UKIPO engagement.
The heart of the conversation is the current UK design law tension, where minimal examination keeps registered designs accessible, but also leaves the register open to weak or bad-faith filings. We talk through practical reforms that keep costs low while reducing abuse, and the controversial topic of criminal sanctions.
If you care about UK intellectual property, design protection, UK IPO practice, and the real-world impact of enforcement tools online, this one is for you. Subscribe, share with a colleague, and leave us a review so more people can find the show.
Pub Setup And Introductions
SPEAKER_02Hey Graham, here we are, um in a pub, which is quite strange, isn't it really? Because the last time I saw you on a podcast was in a pub. So we uh but we're just in a different continent, different country, different pub. It's not that strange. The podcasts work for quite well about I think we are a relaxed mood. Yeah, I guess. We'd be in a very relaxed mood. But we have the usual problem tonight, yeah. We also have the uh uh issue though, but the uh collective bands we had in San Diego where we run and we did to cook. Quite a lot of podcasts, didn't we in it that day? It comes to the point where I've a mower psycho, oh, what's the stuff to the name of it? Oh wish, I'll put a list here. Well, never got four podcasts, actually. So side your ammunition and use it. Why is it what are we going to do? But a spoiler of the list of listeners, Willem's in me Lee's hair if I had a little bit of switchments. Okay, so keep listening.
SPEAKER_00Lee Billy Billis and Willem Roberts are the two MIPs in the pod, and you will listen to a podcast on intellectual property brought to by the Chanton Institute of Patomatomy.
SPEAKER_02So welcome to the podcast. We've been wanting to do it in hand for a long time, haven't we, Brother? You've been long before he just reminded me. It was many years ago. It was many years ago. So but in his current position, which not being laid that on a chair, but um as the August leader of our um designs and copyright committee. I always get it the wrong way around, but that is the right mow, isn't it? I think designs and copyright committee? Yes. We all answered Bosta Charlotte. Seriously, guru when it comes to these things. Oh wait, is it designs and copyright why not order? Does it not just grow better? Or are designs more um prevalently set around?
SPEAKER_01They're all registrable. They probably know what happened to turn is spend most of their time doing it.
SPEAKER_02Could we not just say they are registerable? Because then they're more registerables as well. Yeah, but they are registrable, copyright heat. And Canada, as I found out last week, hasn't it? This is quite a complicated sumpture. You've got down and dirty with the detail. So welcome to the podcast. Um it's a great hubby here in a pub. So we normally
Becoming A Patent Attorney
SPEAKER_02start off with like backstory, the interesting stuff before we get onto the dry IP. Is there any you want to share this about your your background and route into a profession?
SPEAKER_01I think I'd probably fairly typical of most people in the fact that I'd never heard of what patent attorney was until I was about 20. And then I met Saul Holiday, uh, who's a God said where you met? You met I just met someone who wasn't a patent attorney. Uh sorry, so is it someone uh yeah, Pete probably is retired by now. I've said, no idea, we'll put a mirror out. They said, Oh, no, couldn't attend it. And I came home and looked it up and went to a few uh went to a few some uh good emotional races at Urseon and became the pound to turn you off. So they're giving away your age. How long that was that? Uh at least 15 years pretty cover.
SPEAKER_02And how can you find the process to try getting to the profession?
SPEAKER_01I think so. When I joy was in the financial prices, and so I think I was one of the lucky ones of the tweet who did get on the training base. Yeah, yeah. Um and I uh and I found that she was picking pretty far after the branch roots right now as well, and could some probably fairly similar situation. Yeah, I'm I've very lucky, got got a training place um uh tenant where I still own, so it's remarkable I'm still there. Uh and uh let me I say you stayed with a metal. Um and yes, no, I then I then went through the I went through the exams and the EGs and they were horrendous. And I think my only tip is that I took all of the UK no, I took three of the UK exams at once, uh, but my uh now wife, a girlfriend, she went to wait to bring for six minutes. So I was that or able to just be at home. Was that to escape and to escape exams, but it meant that you could do I could sit there all the Sunday and do five-hour paper, or I could do five-hour paper practice, or yeah, Saturday and Sunday, and so I managed to get I managed to get through them. So any um any kind of thoughts or views about the distinction between the EQEs and the UKs or sort of whether one better prepares you can the other, or I would be loath to see the back of the UK towns because I think they actually trained me to be a bit cut to, whereas I think that you can actually gain the EQEs because a lot of it. I mean I know Mitre do it now, but but then you see you could also sum a paper to by literally cutting out halves of the answer but ulcer paper, a cover and gluing it into your into your altar paper, which to me is that's no test tube or cob skills, that's just enabling you know, can you spot basically can you spot the ripe or is it in the output in the out in the dozen?
SPEAKER_02Well, yeah, because I I liked the EQEs because it meant that I got at the time 30 confident I knew that convention back the front and everything else. But it's really good knowledge of that. But in terms of the application, it's a bit more um kind of default to call it how to do it day, okay. So the UK says they really taught mutual advice and they grow from yeah for being scientists. You start you can do the EQ is a basic scientist, but the the yapping up by ease it is a bit fun. I mean, if some of the suballous around presenting, analysing commercial, did they project?
SPEAKER_01I think the ability is well in drafting, for example, sitting down, reading an event discussion, working how the action adventure is, yeah, you get that in the UK's hands, but you don't get it in the euro is because you've just seen that they've written a UK just we you just work about and and maybe even less and maybe even less so in the way that the EQs are being modified. Yeah. And it's also a critical thing about the UK nonces they teach you that life is not fair. Because they are so they are so hard, and we have it, you know, we have we have incredibly intelligent people in our profession who who sail through absolutely ever through and get first PhDs and never have been a copy, and then you're sounds on and teach them how unfair life can be. I'd just say they're a great leveler, but maybe they're more than that. Yes, but what a random leveller.
SPEAKER_02Basically, you'll have all the all all my four to nine percent or book you all see, you pass them as probably in such a bed. Yeah, it's exactly what. And and the thing is, if you're looking to determine whether some of the sticks practice, that's how it should be. That's exactly the kind of um sort of sort of damage position that someone should be. Yes, that's me. Um, Gwynus asked a question, so I so I will.
SPEAKER_01Um, what's the science background? I'm a mechanical engineer. Oh, okay. In which I feel at the end that Finland is uh you we get a lot of physicists, but not very many engineers these days. I don't know. So I'm a mechanical engineer as well.
SPEAKER_02But yeah, yeah, well, only in the sense I'm a plumber by background. And the in I see what the way the plumbing story into the podcast that we're able to do this at the moment. I have an exit planner.
SPEAKER_01I get I must be the only person if you can leave your good pony story with opt-ats. Oh, the view. I may be
The Floorboard Pipe Disaster
SPEAKER_01I may be out of my deck there, but no, no, no. So when um as anyone who had a boct out will remember, and it was the bank holiday Monday before the end of the sunrise period. So it was the time when we had to do the most octa and the system still wasn't working. Yeah, right. And so I was at home and I was renovating our house, and I uh I was doing it, I did some opt-outs in the morning, but I went off to go and do some DIY, so you do, and this is a good story about why you should only trust professionals to do things. Uh as well, and so I um I went off to uh I think I was putting four boards back down on a uh on the on the floor in in a spare room, and I was putting the full one floorboard down, I looked down and there was a pipe running through it. I put the floorboard on top, and then I screwed, I used my impact driver to screw straight through it, and I couldn't and did it, and I thought I lit I just went straight through the pipe. And I think it was the header tweet. Okay, okay. And so I then I then um don't take that screw out immediately. I immediately took the screw out to check, to check if I had to if I top the tip number one through the pipe. That's distracted. And of course I took it out, loaded it out, and the walls just went.
SPEAKER_02Okay, so if you've done that, second tip, wrap a little bit of PTF pin cake around it, or anything that's singing, I think, put it back in.
SPEAKER_01So I used my finger, uh Rich and immediately cut. And so I was there and I I had I had uh walls coming out, blood streaming everywhere, all over the floor, but lost still in the fruit, and uh and um I I then started because it because the uh CNS was so bad. From the other people putting I fell under the op tags, got a message being like the system's back up again, get back to get the back to opt to us. So I was there but streaming, and then I then you know I did four four years of mechanical engineering, but it took me about five minutes to pick up what on earth and I go through to then put screw back in the butt in the you were leaping as well. I was then leaping as well. I then ran away and I did have some uh plummies mates, which is like the pumpkin stuff. So I managed to put that around it. I then I then did manage to uh uh pug in the heritank uh managed and then managed to did manage to cut away the you are a proper mechanic. Yeah, and then uh and then used uh used a blowtorch to um uh not loaded it together, but um sold it, yeah. So and it's still and I have I occasionally check the CB below to check that it's not leaking, yeah, that it's still in there. Mode. Yeah, but there the the unwritten rule is dead still out. Yeah, my little tattoo bad. Um, shoes in there, but yeah, and then I make yeah, and then I went back to the general work task. Successfully a very successful day. Fantastic. One hand in.
SPEAKER_02So where were we before we took the little pumping distraction? Oh, we were yeah, you were telling us about your science background and how you got into the profession.
Why Designs Feel So Different
SPEAKER_02Yep. Yes.
SPEAKER_01And so one thing I did is uh I got very into design protection and sort of early on, uh early in the career. Um I think pounded quite I think from from sort of the industrial design contribution, it's very interesting. Um and gave the exposure to quite different by very different kinds to the ones that you get in engineering. You know, engineering you get people with factories who make stuff, and it got um you're very, very technical, and then with some designings you then managed to you know you go between uh a registered design if a a car heart, and then suddenly go to registered designs and the handbags, uh, or something like something just totally different, and and I quite enjoyed that different scientists. Is that quite unusual for a patent attorney or is it fairly common for people? In this new face, I think a lot of a lot of patent attorneys do do designers in the UK and and then mode outcome across that. But there was trademark attorneys do them as well. But I think in the EU, I think it tends to more be trademark attorneyers who do design. Uh-huh. It sort of varies between it varies between it all the time.
SPEAKER_02So I'm now interested whether a patent attorney and a trademark attorney could look at designs differently because of their different background, fashionable backgrounds.
SPEAKER_01I I I think you're getting very technical. Uh I I kind of first appeared, which is that uh priority for a patent attorneys is critical, something we think about all the time.
SPEAKER_02Whilst if trademark attorneys is less of an issue trademark to say something they don't necessarily think as much for designs as trademark as you're also doing more about shape marks and a game is micro section for some of the things that I sent them up, but I mean you said mucked them designs when I started because they've never said that before. They've said I'd loved it. Because it was a sticking exercise, you had to cut all the edges out and glue them to the form, and then you had to cut the captains out and glue it a form. And then some are you that also are you that odd that you've been used letter no the the left of my pants? Uh we need a front. Let's just say where the words actually. Well, first we had a picture. I use the edges actually, so it's passy stuff, but uh but then you had to throw rampits and blue, draw something stainless.
SPEAKER_01It was the most relaxing way, it's kind of what I have. That's also as a trailer, it's a great Drake obviously reading. Yeah, this is a trailer. You spend so much time reading stuff, really, really reading. And then when it comes to designs, it's comparing pictures, which it's which can be quite a nice release. Um, but then but then I think what's what I do find interesting about science is the actual the law, the the cost of novelty and individual character in itself, it's a lot more uh network uh than say assessing it back to step. It's a knock, it's a lot more uh subjective, um, which I find very interesting. And it gives you a lot more latitude to art.
SPEAKER_02Um also simple, yeah, because then you've got the skilled person to really work spine on cock exile, but it's also giving a subjective on the device.
SPEAKER_01Yes, yeah. So the informal user is they are a bit more subjective, but it's more e it's more that if you with a with a patent, you can read the description and you can come up with a you'd make pro art and you'd say uh oh the pro art says that you should never put X with Y. So therefore our invention where you put X with Y is not of fixed because the Prior Art says it's not. So that's a really good solid objective on a point. Whereas with designs, it is very much, you mean looker to if you're assessing individual character and not being for use with the judge ultimately has to sit down and compare two pictures on two sets of pictures and decide how to.
SPEAKER_02Was that the toy? I forgot it's a toy. There's some case about dispensary where they had to buck blah, and then they print the house. I think I may take some foods. Any any toy. Oh, buff swan, there's all sorts of we can do it.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, how do you use it? Trap type it is one ARE2, so you've got the software registered design back all.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, there's the whole corporate article in this, isn't it? We need to do uh yeah designs and animals. Fake pigeon, ISO pigeon, simple pigeon, uh, piag it them system eagle. Run, yeah, don't back back to the block. If you if you can so and there's a lot of uh designs, how can you get towards your
Committee Work After Brexit
SPEAKER_02top end role at designs of copyright?
SPEAKER_01Yes, uh yes, I was on the committee, I've been on the committee for about nine years and it was a post-gre it's uh when Brexit happened. I suppose long ago, yeah, it wasn't ago. Oh no, that's awful. Yeah, but I I wanted to be I bet I was uh I wanted to be involved in how the UK dealt with registered disabilities on Brexit, I thought it would be interesting, but it wouldn't work it was interesting. Um but then so I did that and then I became uh chair uh three years ago. Oh I think. Um so yes, and then and then initially uh as chair there was we engage a lot with the UKRPO, we yeah, we go to we go to meetings with them and they issued a couple of uh or one or two practice notes where we engage with them. But recently they have uh their movement was a much much more significant changes in the UK design that we have been uh responding to, and we are they're they are going to in order to consultation paper the summer and uh into uh make system potentially when that substantial changes too. Do we want to talk about this? Yes, she heads up by is absolutely yeah, that's assuming. So I think I I think probably the two the two things that are of uh major interest, I think, as practitioners, is going to be firstly what to do about the fact that it's very easy to get registered designs, and so therefore there are a lot of probably invaded registered designs in the register. Yeah, and the second one was criminal sanctions, which is is a very valid topic
Cheap Designs And Online Takedowns
SPEAKER_01for all of us. So come on in give it give it to us, Matt. Come on. So okay, so okay, so I've heard the uh the first one is um so uh for those of you who are not familiar with registered designs, uh so you uh you can apply for a register stand on the UK and they do not substantively examine it. So so for a design to be valid, it needs to be new and it needs to have individual cows. But the BueCar PO doesn't examine that. Unlike in Powerson Sware, they will not examine log to anyway, except they will just dig you the registered design. Right. Um but what that means is that for example, a gorilla he could take his tool uh just thrash it with uh duck on it, the idea, and just get a registered design for it. And even if it's completely new. And so, for example, as we've seen, if a product has been sold on an online marketplace to five years, you could just get you could just take a picture of what had been sold and get a register to report. Right, which is clearly a complete abuse. Yeah, this is still there. But it's totally possible to do that, and yeah, like this is it. The the we live in a world now where for £50 you could get a registered design, and then you can use that registered design to take down all of your competitors and the online marketplaces because the online marketplaces are now very responsive, ladies, uh any in the in a day for infringements. And so, but which objectively means the £50 you can get a preliminary injunction against all of your And and you can do that uh so retrospectively, but these would be people to the market before you. Yes, yeah, in the worst cases. Yeah, in worst cases that happens. But but even even um in the uh even if even if it's not a completely bad faithful beast like that, there are still it's still questionable i in the grand skin to this is where they all that should be possible. Because I think what what um I I think uh the UK does be brilliant because uh for smaller UK designers they can get very cheap protection very quickly. Yeah, and that's really good, and must never be corrupt. And and and Capia, they now grant registered designs within a couple of weeks, which is amazing, yeah. But absolutely brilliant. And but I think that's part of that. What's been lost is the fact that the government doesn't it supposedly in the in the in the is the government shouldn't want to give monopolies to people. Like we'll don't the government doesn't actually want to give patties to or all registered designs are fairly SDP. The whole idea of our IP is that it's the government saying, Oh, we you know we want competition and we will have full competition offered 20 years for Hattie, 20 IQ registered designs, and but they've made it incredibly easy to now get that in the market for registered designs. And so I think the the UK IPA recently ran a design survey as sort of a preliminary sort of investigation for the consultation, and as a committee it responded, and I think one of our key points with China Cross today is that they they need to be commended for the speed and the cost, but it's really important that in in in in helping out the ones they don't forget that it's very detrimental to the public for people to be able to get monopolies so easily, um, and particularly with the ability to to as I said better at a preliminary injunction by just if we take that notice along the online orpho process is is is the public honestly would be a bit wrong.
SPEAKER_02I think that balance I almost I always thought the balance was good, but we have a system where you don't get a light in it.
SPEAKER_01I mean they're not gonna be handing up preliminary junct micro that's something like right, but no, sorry, so it's the affinity for um say on bid on amount of paces you can you can just you could select a list too and say I have this register design, here's the number. So you're not going for and immobile it's a process or anything, but you just straight away to others without with zero with zero um and and when and and these are companies who pretty much only sell on the online market bases. And so effectively if it's there's listen for sound, that is a preliminary junction.
SPEAKER_02That's yeah, but online online tier or not as well by such yeah, yep.
SPEAKER_01It's an entirely gradual but uh the the problem is is that that I say this and there are this is this is not huge widespread of use, but it it does happen. But on the other hand, the good faked wexelers do need to be able to take down do need to be able to take down infringing products from the other places crypto. But finding that balance.
SPEAKER_02So what's what would so you'll be leading our response in a constellation of what would be our position on this? Where would where would we like it to be in terms of what that balance looks
Fixes For A Flooded Register
SPEAKER_02like?
SPEAKER_01So I think um a so at the moment, was to say you can get a registered design within two weeks, but if you wait to the Furford party bus to invalidate a registered design, you can do it to be UKPR, very low cost, and you're not particularly complex proceedings, and and that a lot of them are run by individuals without representations. But they say per year. Yeah. And like if you're selling widgets on uh an online marketplace, a year that's a very one tiny avion that's getting taken down, and basically means it's countless, you just don't bother. You don't bother how you so some means by which we do speed up invalidation with the excellent. There was a discussion that whether or not you would want uh actually to examine budget designs. It's before before brands had been a bit like had to do ex do do searches, do examination. But I think that just just gonna act to the cost. And they say, oh, and the whole purchase design is that quick and easy for some computer designers. What what about policy engagement in the take down mechanisms? Is that some that's because I I think ultimately the online marketplaces uh I think it would they've been a lot less abuse if they did some very basic chairs, like say, for example, a basic check, which is that uh the and you check you check the filing data to register design, yeah, and make sure that it is before the data that the listing was put up. Yeah. Because in that case they that is they those are the worst abuses are weak people who have had. Father Bridge designer users take down of other people's listings when those listings were on and not basically stop the doorbridge designs were right. And for him that just had a basic check like that, and then and then and then if if the marketplace is wrong, they keep the listing up and if they've won, goes leave it to barters, deal with it between their fabric attorneys or others. That would be it. Just basic checks like that. And also some kind of use use of that design.
SPEAKER_02So the fact that that some of the uh had a trading reward and yes, absolutely.
SPEAKER_01Even uh which is an obvious is is is a lot of the worst abuses I've seen are one is where the the complainant on the online laptop basis, some literally grinder may could be random name generator with uh a hotmail address.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_01And with absolutely no thing, like no IDF other week between them and the people who actually own a registered design. So the registered design would be named of a company, and then like an individual with some uh XY set of Y Z V I said like why and of course when you when you ask them to retrap their company they don't respond because it's probably one of many and uh and it's um and and I think uh I I I yeah, I think one reason to particularly strongly is because I think interestingly it probably doesn't affect many CPA members because it affects honey new businesses, like in micro enterprises, where if you say to them it's gonna cost you 500 crumbles, 700 pounds, 1000 pounds to just work out what we do about this, they'll say that's too much, we'll do you. And so you get no, I think it's it's a bit harmful. But the the them of our founders say you need to keep those mattresses in those to deal with it. Um but so so so so one one thing was so you'll say responses to it, we said uh think about speeding on validation so that we can get rid of these securely highly pressure designs quickly. Think about doing things like having it um before you enforce your design, before you can use it and take down basis, you have to get it examining that bottom or something like that. And and another thing as well is cost is like if it so because of the way the fees work, I could get 50 registered designs for 150 pounds. It's 50 monopolies for 150 pounds, and that's that's brilliant for the designers. Yeah, terrible for the British monike. Yeah, that they give we give monopolies away so easily. And so you're just simply saying it's a £100 per design. So if you want well, if you want for different, it's gonna cost you five hundred pounds. Like something like that would would deter people from just getting monopolies that perhaps are either not they're the body or bad faith or or warfare just not. We shouldn't be gonna be so you say the three pounds a monopoly is too literal.
SPEAKER_02Yes. Well what's your preferred price number not?
SPEAKER_01I'll need that up to the UCA. Yeah. So they give it they can they can figure it out.
SPEAKER_02But that kind of that uh ease a couple of crani the design net plus is the second part that you've mentioned though, which is the um the criminal sanctions on
Criminal Sanctions And Unregistered Rights
SPEAKER_02this. This the idea that then that easily available ride and then be interserted, and if you're fine, there's a criminal so that is the case now still, as in that is possible.
SPEAKER_01It is the the criminal searches exist with registered designs at the moment. And but uh and and they all didn't they were brought into the X Electricopty Act 2014, and at the time CIPA's position was against criminal sanctions because uh as far as I'm aware they haven't really been used since then. And and and also problems is that um if you want to papa to tell you to a biasy, what I can't advise a primary sanction. I have no I don't have a trainer, I can't possibly give any advice. And so and and in even IP solicitors because we don't have that that skill to do that. So you you never befind advisors, you know, about criminal sanctions adding about registered designs, and which but that's one of the many myriad problems. But I think I think what what there is possibility or then I think we can stand there, so you've got sort of lobby for is uh criminal sanctions for unregistered design rights for each. So this is where you don't register it, and and it's a bit like copyright in the sense that yeah, you you you uh there are certain qualifying coordinates and but and there were various different types of unregistered design rights at the moment, and but flexibly they might last for three years or fifty years or to ten or fifteen years from when you burst displays the design. And and uh those are under the sort of microscope for getting uh criminal sanctions applied against them. But all of the arguments for not having criminal sanctions for registered designs apply, but even more so for unregistered designs, because of the fact that I could not possibly tell you anything in this room, I could not possibly tell you if there's any unregistered designer box cached to it. So I could and even if you say to me that this microphone was spurred style sold three with two easy, I could tell you that there are potentially two different types on the edge design lines. But I still, even if I could assess whether or not they're they're new uh uh and have individual character, I could not tell you if they the unregistered design rights still exist because it depends upon where the person first made that this microphone of airlines. Yeah, but I won't know, and also um uh the identity of a nationality's view.
SPEAKER_02Now I'd tang when little saw him bond. Yeah, uh do that tell them the story because it comes back to the time when we were discussing criminal sanctions for registered designs. Uh Roger Bull Hup, I suppose didn't. And we had a big debate in old Seapah Hall, uh, and all of the usual suspects, I won't I won't name people, but all of the usual suspect in terms of the sort of the the pros and against. Yep. Um, and and I told Roger a little story. You used to drive for the country bought a lot to meet the members and stuff. Yeah. And I told Roger a little story, and he cleared remembered it for my plumbing guess. So go back to a plumbing story, Green. How cool is it? 20 two plumbing stories in one podcast. This is the first, okay? Um so so we're having this discussion about um designs, and someone presented from the pre-criminal sanctions candidate was talking about a uh it was a well-known sort of international retailer who was selling a uh candlestick affair and was taken to court some relatively sort of much smaller sort of individual who was doing something fairly pretty similar, and the case was you're refringing on our design. And Roger had remembered, I told you about a story about how like back in the 80s and 90s when I was seeking plumbing, we used to teach people how to make canvases, and I was showing Roger about pictures of come of the uh what we'd done and stuff like that. And and Roger just said he's called Cuts Lee would like to tell us a plumbing story. Uh so so they there you go. So there was someone who was doing something 20 years before before this case, yeah. And it speaks exactly for that, doesn't it? So how how do you ever identify that I don't know if quite right is the wrong term to use here, but just the existence of the right.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, it's it's it it requires knowledge that only the proprietor look at, which means that if you'll transcend sort of clear of certain free topic session to water and for that, it would be virtually for us to be, or is it's what it is can be virtually and push to be to do a proper act, yeah, and no, and no these days. Yeah. And so um I think the and so adding criminal sanctions into the mix that's just gonna make companies scared, people scared of rotary for those.
SPEAKER_02The decision would you have a guy for iPads with so so even on a set so you know that I'm always sort of like the non-professional in the room, so I can ask every stupid question. I'm gonna unregistered and criminal.
SPEAKER_01Even even the words together don't work through that. So that's clear about registering designs that you can look at the pictures in the registration or the drawings in the registration and compare them to the product that you want to launch, and then you can make a decision whether or not there is potentially brushing an ambucha part based upon that. But with unregistered design rights should just you call you that and the the key the key thing about unregistered, I should say, is that no quiet copy they to infringe you need to copy. Yeah, but then what's the difference between copy and being inspired by some ask sheary? Yeah, yeah, what do you but how do you but it's so horrible, it's so complicated. And like I absolutely agree, we need unregistered design right law, uh, but but it needs to be it's it's too complicated, so to house people. It's you you know if criminal sanctions should be for something where it is understandable to most people, but that could be a criminal thing to do, whereas I think unregistered designers, it's just not, but just isn't that driving factor that so I can't cost you about can I always say that.
SPEAKER_02Also the decision-making thing, because I had um on years ago when patents like I had the clients who finished the patent or got an junction law or something, and they came up with a really good design around the pattern. Well, clearly it wasn't in them, um, but I was only able to say 99% that I was sure. And so it's a good one wrong than the reading injunction between the drug and the thrill reports. Gios says I do can't do it. So make it almost impossible. Yeah, we'd normally this is a money deal in it. If we do this, worst case sound goes off for market, we lose this with money, but this goes off. But when it becomes your serum bond as everything else, it means they're just like there's a way out for it, you know, that probably with friends are you have to do. Um but they they just couldn't that's in it then in the event of uh uh that's not a known natural brand, but let's make what uh it got retake it, whatever they're about. Uh let's see it. Tapsaro. That's what taps barrow. It's a taps barrow, yeah, multi-billion pound international brand found guilty of infringing unregistered designs on a sort of uh a prolific. But those if it's president.
SPEAKER_01So it would I think it would have to handle on the legislation, but I can I'm not sorry, the directors.
SPEAKER_02But we did that code class, do you remember know you should manage direct a liable persony something? Yeah, if one should listen more on the pop shot. Yeah, you should listen more. Was the other side from shower robin? Um I've got a list of from here to where you really want to have like focus on what's happening in the middle of the state. I didn't think we'd go I think he's um so so not preempting the debate that we'll have internally within CIPA, Matt. Where do you think we're gonna be in terms of our position?
SPEAKER_01I can be I am a hundred percent sure that CPA is going to be against criminal infections for and racism. Surely not. Sure, yeah.
SPEAKER_02Um hat's uh you have more than one hat. Oh, I tell you you've got more than one hat in terms of the fact that you're practicing patent attorney, beating designs, and chair of uh designs of crop recovery. You can't do another hat, honestly. I think that's the monster. Well, I stole that I stole the hat for not what you mean. Oh, I've seen it mercy pretty well, it's not got nachos in it, has it? Please tell me, isn't that the nachos in there? Um no, and I'm sure your head is definitely bigger than mine, so I mean it depits.
SPEAKER_01Yes, no, so I take a look at From Gwyn as the president of the British
Union IP Dinners And Speaker Stories
SPEAKER_01group Union IP. So uh for those who don't know, Union IP is a European organization for uh intellectual productive practitioners. Um and Gwynn, you were president for 20 years. Do you know when it was founded? No. I don't know the presentation. So it was it was founded in the early 1960s, but I think in a time before Face with me, that they were having bold in the uh sort of uh majority of the EPC the U Democratic, and then the subsequent uh community designs, community trademarks or validations. So they were founded before there was any sort of cross-European sort of groups a bit of IP. Um and they do at the European level, they do they do various events uh on designs and trademarks and every Europe, various, very nice cities around Europe. Um but what Gridham used to be in that I've taken a boob is president of the British group, and we serviced in the the British Mars odd union, and I think the best way to describe us would be a Dia Claw. She said, I was going to ask that question, but I didn't want to be that crass. Yeah, it's easy to be trying to explain it. Very grand title, President of the Union IB. But effectively we have a few dinners a year that we invite interesting speakers, come for us, IB, to kind of speak in uh under chats and cash rules. And uh we we uh you know typically have sort of 40 depth depict at the moment uh in the tendons. I think Cree Kato we had a lot more where I think Crash Kodara first and slow down a bit in that front. Um but I can I can see Gwynnam is looking through the list of previous previous speakers. Just which ones do you remember?
SPEAKER_02Yes. Okay, they've come up in the Supreme Court. I bought Bob. Yeah, so cover then. Two EFO presidents and one UK and one C and the two CEOs, so there's a moss of I I I can see the union and I attended Royal Court COVID, which is uh really good. Yes, that was Noscras March 23, Evan Williams. That's quite late in the day. It was quite late in the day to actually I was sat next to two people at dinner who were coughing and sneezing like Governors, and then the next day was perfectly ill and did a test, which over.
SPEAKER_01Well, the one that we held in uh March 2020 with Suzanne Oliver on. So Suzanne, she was meant to come to the dinner university, but the day before um announced that the employees could not could not go to any events. I think was she on serious. Yeah, I think you should need all of it to work from home by that time. Yeah, but we were we were only that must have been a week or four, or even in the gust ways. Yeah, I think the morning actually, yeah.
SPEAKER_02I don't know if you've got a Ronald Telly, you just I did event, but there's a time where it was quite a weird thing to do. So she was zoomed in, or probably Skyped in by S butter. And then Skype, whatever happened to Stowe? That zoom pedalogue very just around my own idea. But um the I just I remember that ticketable because somebody coughed halfway through in the whole room based burst into this verifole terrified laughter. And also that one I don't think anyone could think. I take room at the end of the thing was you just we could get around the software. And also it was when hand washing would be coming as some arc to us and three middle session of your hands, and it'll be maybe being advised to turn open doors with your elbows. You try doing that when you're around, well, everyone's supper the tour when they get out because they're gonna hurt and they're wearing it about making us up, or if you washed your hand, but was to God save the queen.
SPEAKER_01But that was it, yes, that was you dash up on to Lana, yeah, but also at the same time we gave them advice that you did not need to wear a face mask. Do you remember there was a period where they were like we're not we don't think it's an airborne, which fit its airborne, so you don't need to wear a face mask. And that was at the time. We do the rats, we're not sure what the rats.
SPEAKER_02So no one no one was wearing face masks. Why why couldn't we end up those big pointer bars to wear the pipe? And they're having so much more fun if we were wearing those type crazy big beaks and some of the other guests. I mean, without them all, I'd be my favorite my favourite one was Guy Hollandwood. Remember that one? He was a barrister at the Christmas one. The reason I remember this because I had some Japanese guests along and in the Christmas Union Dinger, and so we had Christmas practice, so they rigged into a bat, then we made a Christmas meal, they rigged into a bat, then made that Christmas piss, looked quite silly, and then it turns out Guy Hollow's close magic. So he did a tour about IP and then did some magic, but it was a bottom as you might hand stuff. Yeah, really cool contracts. Oh sorry, Ron Netson couldn't work it out. Hate magic, second thought here. So what what's your what's your what's your mandate? What's your platform and that presidents?
SPEAKER_01Why captured president? I think probably um I'd love to see a recovery in Rubus. We do we we we've seen a pretty good we've seen a pretty pretty good recovery over the last six what's I think my many organisations have done. Well, I'd love to be able to get out to the hundreds, the hundred kill we age to get. Yeah, and I think I'm hoping that will come because I think people are much more keen to come out to it.
SPEAKER_02Plus, look, true. Plus, yeah, tell people what they need from the yeah.
SPEAKER_01I heard it. Basically, really interesting, really interesting speakers. Always we were just and they're always on guarded, so they talk they're a lot more and straight straightforward talking. You know, you hear we you know we've heard from Benoit Baticelli during his union crisis. He's a security guard. Yeah, it is so let's see bodyguards, and it was absolutely remarked, and I would always always remember that. And then we had um Rob Muba that just after the Brexit as well, where he'd been he'd been branded an enemy of people, and that we hit was actually fascinated in Tolf about eyes. Um but I think there's that, and then also the fact that it's um it's uh it's less of a networking event and much more of a getting together as a profession. It is networking, but the rewards on patent totality is there, trademark tone is there, Smith is there, and it's just a lot more I've only known to a couple about really joke on.
SPEAKER_02There's the social side, I don't should talk about it. I think that's something that people don't quite kick up from. Is then you sit down surrounded by a bunch of peers, but have a nice dinner and I could do it if you wish. Um I think I've got Ned Laris of Punch, I lose the assessment. There's another one thing Vladimir Various, Baringas Nabu Rock, who's a minister back in the day sixteen. And and she did the summary then three days after the referendum finance on Brexit. Well, and she said as mercy guys talk about um some interesting issues coming up in Tappen World and some of the work they're doing the other season. And I said, people just want to hear about what's going to happen with Brexit. If you don't mention it, they'll think you're mad. They do talk about it. So you but there's a real cathartic midnight. I thought we would go back to those times. Please don't remind me. So one of my jobs for the podcast is to mark time, you know that. But I'm not doing it today. I've got uh uh someone in the audience who's like waving, gesticulating at me. That the Amor executive lead head producer. Oh, yeah, that's still I always forget my title. Yeah, I was competenceful in there by mistake. Yeah, that's a good one. Well, went on. So uh any more that you want to kind of drag out of Matt before you don't know, if you haven't attended with Matt's is. Is there anything you're sat there thinking about, oh god, they'd not ask me now that. No, but we think so. You covered my plumbing story. With this, yeah. So and at the end of the podcast, we're gonna usually do back a bit of a tangential question, and I'm gonna cheat if that's okay, but 'cause Matt's all of the answer
Worst Plumbing Mishaps And Closing
SPEAKER_02bit. So I'm gonna ask you what's your worst plumbing mishap. That's new or is it not until it's your personal part? I can tell you some Richard stories about that. Yes, that angle. Plumbing this hat sounds great. I mean we all decided that we're not. Okay, nobody will still hear it. Yeah, yeah. I'll do it on the end, but probably they has needs to know this. Um actually well they're not fighting coming to say the spot is about the there they are. Yeah, so yeah, does we have a dodgy dodgy donor? Go back to round donors, dodgy donor, and please, we're gonna be podcasting this later on. Um shut the door and the door closed itself on M2. I was stuck in the toilet. Just the other day, actually, and could he go? There's no one there. He had no phone, and the only phone number he knows is his mum. So you had to waiver passive by out his dad says, Well, the waiver passes by until one starts, and then shouts to the window, please call my mum on the Halloween number and ask her to pop around and let me out. You know you've now destroyed his appearance on the podcast later, but it says he can only dance. Well, sorry about a laptop and mocks as well. If he had a pen, he couldn't write it on like toilet all and then wind it down like I'm be had it's the worst places to get stuck, can't they? Because you've got the you've got water, obviously, and got a seat. He didn't, there's only got oh no. Do you want any wine? I've got lots, obviously. Um did my one.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, I did. There you go. This is a fall album, but I um I uh I over lunch once, I I was a radiator under my desk. Um I decided that I would tick radios for it to empty outs where you all had to dunk inside it. And I'd done that on one of the other radiators, then the small one those straightforward, just unscrew it. Yeah. Couldn't the bows unscrew it before clean out. And as I did that, the um the pipe, the inlet pipe broke, snapped below the bell. And that's absolutely irredeemable. Oh, I'm yet everywhere. Thank you for having always up the time book came. They didn't say that you're more on the back, but they they looked at me in those sad eyes, getting like you're on a basic as you fix it. You saw clam and we all didn't say. So that radiator one meant that we didn't have key thing for uh TBAs, and therefore I do what do anything with Peterman more because why my other half will not fall out is so that's like me. No, let's take this over.
SPEAKER_02There is multiple podcasts in our days, also by give him a full guy. So I think I'm gonna go with one of those very best ones. Um uh so back in my days as a like professional flower. Uh used to work in low-poor quality housing, go to uh masonette, yeah, house looking for my house. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Uh go to a ground floor maisonette. And uh a person is one elderly person is there with his daughter who's there to welcome me and kind of make sure things are going smooth and stuff like that. And I explained to her, they've got a cut at the sexual soil pipe. And that's a wonderful sexual soil pipe. Yeah, please don't make your dad use the upstairs toilet. Yeah, well, that's a lot, yeah. I um cut out the first consecutive soil plate and bent over or knocking the cork out of the out of the joint, and I hear the toilet glass. And the only thing that went through my mind was please it'll be we. And then the first lump hit. Oh, no, yeah, and multiple lumps hit. Oh, that's it. And you kind of get up and you think, oh my gosh, oh it's all over me. Uh uh. And as I hand, the door opens, and it was the door, so coming back in. And she said, Hey, are you okay? I said, Well, I said, uh that's I'd say what's boiled that I I just need to go. I need to go get trained, didn't get cleaned up, we got telling supposed to. And she looks and she said, Um, okay, I'll clean up for you. Right? It's like, oh, I come back. New boiler suit, gonna wash there, that's okay. And she collected what had come down the phone and said to me, I didn't know if you wanted me to keep this. Do you need it for like making me a joy or anything? It's like, no. Oh thank you, Lee. Should we end the podcast there? Is that a good place to end there? It's a yeah, but it's a little bit of a good place to end a little bit oh yeah. Yeah, you know, yeah, yeah. Uh Matt, thank you so much for coming on. Pleasure uh to have you in your capacity as chair of the Design Corporate Committee. Um obviously on the next podcast, which is maybe about a few minutes' time. Indeed, um I just need to say at the end of the podcast, obviously, if you listen to this podcast and you found it enjoyable, particularly the plumbing stories, uh, then please leave us a little review on the plumbing podcast and platform of your choice, and other people can find our amazing water-based stories.