Two IPs In A Pod
Brilliant inventions, fresh product designs, iconic brand names and artistic creativity are not only the building blocks of successful business - they deliver a better world for us all. But these valuable forms of intellectual property must be protected in order to flourish. We are the Chartered Institute of Patent Attorneys - the UK's largest intellectual property organisation. Our hosts Lee Davies and Gwilym Roberts chat with entrepreneurs, creatives, patent attorneys and the occasional judge about how patents, trade marks, designs and copyright can improve our lives and solve problems for humanity.
Two IPs In A Pod
A Conversation with Eamon Chawke: The Changing World of IP
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In this episode of Two IPs in a Pod, Lee Davies and Gwilym Roberts are joined by Eamon Chawke, an IP lawyer whose career has taken him from financial and commercial law into intellectual property and ultimately to becoming a co-owner of boutique IP firm Briffa. Eamon shares his journey into IP and his commitment to making intellectual property more accessible to creatives and small businesses, discussing everything from trademarks, designs and contracts to brand disputes and bullying. The conversation also explores how Brexit and COVID created new opportunities for businesses and brands, and how the role of an IP lawyer is evolving as social media, PR, data protection, AI and datasets become increasingly important to clients.
Mortgage Jitters And Village Moves
SPEAKER_01Actually just put in a mortgage application. I know, I know. That's scary sound. The other side's really interesting. I've got, to my joy, two of my kids, my older kids at home at the moment. Yeah. It is lovely having them. And yeah, whereas I could the downsizing actually doesn't make a lot of sense. I mean a few people now are actually going your way. I'm doing a little village hock, which is quite exciting because I'm yeah, move moving to the next village along. So I um I I'll get some sort of sense of what it's like on the other side of the street. Oh, is there is there a massive feud between the villagers and Christmas light feud? Yeah. Oh no. Well, the worst thing you have 4,000 light rolls. We've discussed this before, I guess, so it's bad enough in the road, but yeah, there is a bit of an inter-village um display in there. Oh no, yeah, yeah, yeah. I think I've realised. I I could have a long training aid back to the old house as well, showing you carry on carry on using the same electricity.
Meet The Guest And Name Origins
SPEAKER_00Lee David and Willem Roberts are the two MIPs in a pod, and you will listen to a podcast on intellectual property brought to you by the Chatham Institute of Patternating.
SPEAKER_01This is normally the best time to get a guest on because we've got cross of each other. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. Oh, is it a dangerous dangerous, but I don't know if that's thinking his mind. I'm thinking it's probably Aylon, isn't it? Well done. Most people don't get at the first time. Really find myself having to say it's Eamon like Matt Damon. So what do they say though? Uh usually Eamon. Really? E Almon. Um yeah, you'd be surprised. It depends on where they're from, obviously. I guess they're boy in this country. That's you, as you know. Um I would have assumed that most English people know Eman because Eamon Holmes and a couple of others have a very well low valence. But no, not the case. But then again, the people I'm speaking to in this country weren't necessarily boy in this country either. Yeah. So they could be from the field. Just on, you got an accent over. You got an accent, but on in addition to be accent, you got an accent on the name, yes. What does that do to it? E the accent is called a foda, which is the Irish word for loud, right? And it basically lengthens a slender vowel sounds to make it a four vowel sound. So it takes what would be Eamon and makes it Heaman. Slender vowel in the broad vowel. It's like the difference between sholen and shane. If you have S E foda A N, it's Sean. If it was S E A S without the fodder, it would be Shane.
SPEAKER_02I didn't know that.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. Hang on backwards. So because you just said the act and the use that's logging. Yeah, yeah. It makes the slender vowel sound. Oh, I see. So it sort of makes the bald vowel sound dumb and makes the Amy sound sound sound the dumbbell thought. Cool. Is that because it's a written as a spoken language was a written language, so you need to kind of work with the Roman alphabet? Like I tell me what, it's the question. Um except I suppose that m most of the Irish names have sort of English derivatives, so Amy is just the Irish derivative of Fed word or England. In the same way as welcome to linguistics and name. Sorry. You've not come on to talk about your name. I'm going to talk about it for you. I want to say chalk.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. Yeah.
SPEAKER_01Well, again. No, I was trying to I was trying to get the W in it there a wee bit rather than chalking chalk. Sometimes some people say it's just chalky, especially in America, Eman chalky. Uh superpoint, that's fine. Um but yeah, I mean it is quite an unusual name. Yeah, yeah. Which I have always sort of liked. Especially with internet stuff. If there's something written with the shop itself as a surname, it's very, very unusual, even in Ireland. Um, aim is not that unusual, but the combination of aim and chalk and fairy sure I'm the only one. Oh okay. I'm I'm sort of low-level narcissistic enough to go to nice paper, so I'll find anything to see if there's anyone else knows how you found anyone else today. Yeah, I'd be that as well, though. I'm that sort of narcissist. I'd be good with myself. There's there's quite a lot of leave everybody.
SPEAKER_02Oh yeah. Yeah, yeah, but uh yeah.
Leaving Corporate Law For IP
SPEAKER_01Let's do that. Let's do that. Let's do it from the ends at the end up. Why are you with us? Who are you? What do you do? Why am I here? What am I doing? Um so yeah, I'm an IP lawyer. Um, although I wasn't always an IP lawyer. I started life as in fact I shouldn't really be a solicitor, that's what I've got about. I was in second year of law school in UCC about two decades ago. And one of the lecturers and one of the lecturers said, Oh, the big law firms from Dublin are coming to milk grounds, didn't know a milk brown. I seemed something to do with milk tough stuff. And turns out it wasn't, it was they were sort of selling up training contracts, and then everybody scurried up to the library to fill out their application forms. I was like, oh, that sounds like thing it might be worth doing. Anyway, long story short, got a training contract with a very big corporate firm in Dublin, and qualified as a solicitor, and and pretty much my all my experience was geared towards the big corporate E the department the areas that make money in Dublin. Yeah. Dublin is a city that's driven by sort of funds and tax, and corporate areas of close in the big area. Yeah, big big corporate law. Exactly. Yeah, all the double. Um so that was fine. Spent two or three years in Dublin doing my training contract going to law school. There came up with all the fixed paintings that said that I was a sister. Moved to the UK and and was very attracted to Babe from America. A law firm, big salary is all very sexy. Did that for about six months and realized that I really, really hated um and well, I won't say it's the environment because actually the people I work with are very nice, and the firm is great, lots of grace. But I remember being at work very, very late one night and turning page sort of 82 on a uh facilities agreement and realizing I didn't care at all. Financial confidence, and however much money is in my bank account, or however much I sort of try to make myself care about, it would never really want to care about. It's just walk out at that moment. I didn't walk out. No, I might have a bit of a sort of breakdown, but I didn't want that door. I mean what I did do though was have a moment of real sort of brutal honesty upset. Okay, so in a row job, emergency, emerging out of a situation. Um and I I thought back to the the bit of uh law, but I did enjoy my um undergraduate and postgraduate studies and the bits that I enjoyed in law school and the bits that I enjoyed in my training contract, and the such Connell's reggae's IP. Recreative, really interesting, but complex areas a bit different. Started researching IP firms, and loaded, it turns out white was good to get into. Quite neat. Um, but I came across an idea in the lawyer for a job that was actually already close, and now that was already sold service for a boutique I per IP firm called Brifa. He made Margaret Briffa said, Hey Margaret, we don't know me, but here's my story. And can I find this job? And so it's too much credit. She really baby shot. She came back and said, You finish your other good job, you finish your existing job in a very short period of time. And this is a quite a big change for you in terms of type of furniture going, coming from and buzzing to come to, you know, salary calls, everything is going to be quite different for you. And it was a huge change. Um but nevertheless that was what I wanted to do, and I said, yeah, I'm all in. So went total switch from and you know, banking, finance, credits, whatever, into IP. And I say all credits of her because she gave me a shot at a time when I didn't really know anything about IP. Academically, I knew about IB abyss from college, and I was very prepared to I was very prepared to sort of learn it, but I had no experience. So that's that's quite
Building Competence Through CPD
SPEAKER_01just a motive for me because I mean obviously we're not the regulator of the patent phase fraction, we're the oversight regulator. We contract regulation out uh into the popular regulation board. But one of the things that I know that I does, that also the SRA does on like the Swiss side, is to make sure that people practice within the bounds of their competence. Uh-huh. So how do you become a competent IP lawyer having grown up in that world of that big corporate lawhead? How all of a sudden you gain all the contracts that you made? Well, I mean, a lot of what you it's not let's say that all the stuff that is on stuff works to keep the use is obviously not really very useful. Um, a big part of IP is being a methodical thinker, speaker, and writer. You have to be able to craft contracts, you have to be able to write letters depending on what you do if it's an obtentious work. You can do a trademark and design applications, you head for process and detail whether previous speakers are talking about words to designs and images. So lots of what I would have done in law school and in my um education is fair, though. But the shorter answer to your question is CPG. And that's why it's not it's I mean the S for Ray and the law citing Epa is very sort of um laissez-faire, if you like. They they'll sort of self-certify, and also qualified to surrender, where it's much more prescriptive in terms of what you have to do. Um, and so I I also just sort of believe in general in education and in lifelong learning. And if you're gonna do something every day, you should probably be something you're interested in. I think if you're interested in something you're gonna want to read about. And that would have to be difference to me between IP and say banking, for example. I enjoy reading about IP, whereas it was a chore to educate myself about um so these agreements and agreements work. But yeah, you're absolutely right. And and IP probably more so than lots of other areas of law, like I don't know, Kubay and Singh Wills, Crowdates, whatever. It changes a lot really quickly. It doesn't, you know, these rights don't function the same way in different um jurisdictions. Again, if we take syllabus as an example, a design pack money pack it in the US completely different to a red design in the cable rather. Um so yeah, you've to you have to have an interest in it, you have to read about it, you have to practice it, you've and that's what I did, as well as doing the Oxford course where I was exposed to lots of you know excellent teachers and lecturers and and material, and that was I tried to sort of accelerate my learning through geo and that's there's a bit of self-awareness as well, because you obviously not go off writing lengthy opinions on something you never know about. You got the self-regulating lots of yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. Was that your intervention? That's it. I'm done then.
Buying The Firm And Finding Purpose
SPEAKER_01So who do you go from? What sort of what sort of areas? I'll get what what's yes, so sorry, the firm is Brifa. I should say as well, the the sort of end of the story is this is now in a couple of months I'd have been there for ten years, and in that time I and my business partner, Will Miles, ended up buying the firm from Margaret. She ultimately decided what she wants to step out. She came to us on the NBO proposition, and we were like, Yeah, that's probably that's a lot of things that research could do. I probably, if I was honest to government, I saw myself going on the route where maybe I sort of moved up in terms of maybe going to Bristol, I was going to Bernard. Yeah. Or I would just get sick of just completely and going house and try and go work for the company. That sounded a bit cool. I never anticipated um owning a law firm just because you know I didn't know anything about how to blog these up the stacks between A and B. I didn't even know what they were. But you know, life is strange and unusual, and sometimes things happen in our. Absolutely, you kept the brand. I think the brand is Grace. She's brand. Yeah. So she's a legend. Yeah, she's been around a long time. And again, just to her credit, lots of things that people really take for granted now. She really was crime over when it came to a making IP accessible to individual uh creatives, crackers, designers, whatever, and you can even small business with SMEs. Because back in 1895 that you started a firm, even in even in language, intellectual property was called industrial property. Everybody sort of agreed with pharmaceutical companies as to be kept companies or all very patent heavy. But if you're a uh you know musician or ps you know some sort of small artists who designed it, the idea that IP was for you was just like out the window. And that was her whole thing, is that she was gonna make IK wide successful. I slight tools there also for for crazy people. That was the first idea she was doing. The biggest problems in this in this country with the leadle industry and leader services is that people don't actu can actually access these lights because they can afford it. And she was a huge trailblazer right here to fix peace, transparency, and you know, right. I think things you surface records out. So those two things yeah and now that I've been doing this as long as I have, I realize how um the sense of purpose that I get for my job. Because we're sort of doing what I think we should be doing. We're we're helping people or help the small businesses to build it to do, we're working in a way that makes these rights accessible to people. That's almost as important to me as the fact that I enjoy my job. Yeah. Um so anyway, and also all of that, all of that stuff that I've just said about and why I like what I'm doing feeds into the decision to, yeah, it's worth all the risks that go with. I was gonna ask why I guess uh I was gonna ask about that. It's out for brave, because it was a loaded one on it. But I mean, how did the tech is managing a decision once you depend on an option? We have we made the decision relatively quickly. Um I'd only been a birthday for a year or bit, so I think we'll have been there for maybe two years. Well, wow. And this planet and the host. And yeah, we sort of sat down, we talked about like what are our activity in life as an opportunity costs and doing X and not doing it. Yeah. So we said, okay, these as we could do, and what what are the pros and cons of doing this? And he ultimately sort of said, even if this doesn't work out, even if we just take this all from literally work it, the whole thing gets falls over. And we hadn't we hadn't died. And and the way the deal was proposed to us was that you know, we would take ownership of the sheriff's voice gonna be subject to a charge and certain negative controls that martyrs would would have. And so if we really start to screw with things, like I don't know, just changing the name of the brand or like doing your things like massive deal, you know all the kind of controls that you have to share all that is done. Um so we just said we're gonna do it, we're gonna keep doing what we're doing, we're gonna work really, really hard. We're gonna try and learn as much as we can, not just about IP, but about managing people, and about running a business that about accountancy and about all the regulatory stuff that everybody likes. And so, yeah, once we got our heads around the wisp, we made the decision fairly quickly.
Brexit, COVID, And New Opportunities
SPEAKER_01And it sounds it sounds weird to say it now, but it happened at it it happened sort of during Brexit, it happened during COVID times, which was scary in one sense, but actually both of those things presented huge opportunities. And Brexit, and then for they couldn't do EU work anymore. And we wanted to continue being able to advise an EU design right marks, so we decided to open a firm in Ireland. Which EPN was like why the why decision was? Why the hell not? Well, exactly. Yeah, I had lots of context there, so that wasn't such a turn difficult to make that happen. Um, but that was an opportunity for a new market where there probably aren't a huge amount of firms like Griffith in Ireland. There's big firms that won't have a lot here, and then this patented trademark terries down here, and there was there there is a space in the room for a firm and report separate. Now lots of other UK firms have done saying things are saying is our idea. Um, and COVID again, like it sounds it sounds uh big giant putting these terms really from COVID. In the SS. Lots of people were either furloughed or just had more time. They got two hours a day back in their life because they were in commution, and loads of people outside hustles. Seriously, the amount of people who were working in I don't know, cosmetics and then decided they were gonna start making and sanitizers. Yeah. Okay, but they were working in fashion and so that they were gonna start making PPE or people who were personal training was engine people who became influencers and content creators aligned with so much IT stuff. Yeah. That you know, we we sort of assumed that it would just be contentious work because people are going to be trying to get out of contracts and there's gonna be a lot of stuff going wrong, as often happens. But the economy do often get like that. But in selfie and she's huge, huge creators. Yeah, but initial patent findings a lot. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. So yeah, that was that was where that was sorry, I I shoved that in there just to sort of explain who I am, why I am this that that that's a part
Advising Creative Businesses On Soft IP
SPEAKER_01of the story. The fact that I sort of now own the business and have been doing it for ten years. But to get back to the question that you asked, who are we? Who are we? Not for you, are we here? Was then and is now a boutique IP firm that specializes effectively in soft IP rights. Yes. Creative effectives, creative lawyers for creative business. So you know, we've sort of we're a general discover that we advise people in relation to all intellectual property rights, including patents at a high level who will talk to people about the patents protect. Um, but when it comes to the technical legal work that we're doing, we're advising people in those sectors that are IP rich for the soft IP rights. So fashion, cosmetics, consumer products, sports, health and well-being, game, music, all those kind of people come to us and they say, I want to start a business, I want to check my brands, I've got a passing-off issue, I need to get my data protection website documents in order, any contacts, any whatever. And yeah, we we effectively try to position ourselves as not just IP advisors, but business advisors. Business step for these people. And the kind of businesses that we're working with are big enough and established enough that they have money and they know enough IP, some value of IP. But they're usually not big enough or sophisticated enough to have in-house lawyers or to be able to do all that stuff themselves. So it's a real sweet spot for us to go to come in and say, effectively, I'll be your Righouse lawyer, I'll be your business advisor. And because we'll go work with you and charge you in a really fair way, you could have gone talk to me about something and not worry if I press play on some um billing machine. Um, that's I think a lot of how we work with people, and the reason people are quite loyal to us is we develop relationships over a long period of time. And founders, but even in the tenures I can prefer, you meet people and they're on business number two, another business number three, and they're a business number four. And for all those businesses of all the projects and collaborations while I guess that they're working on. There are trademark filings and design filings and oppositions and evaluations and disputes and contracts and all the rest of it. So, yeah, you merely learn a lot of IP, but you also learn a lot of industries and sectors, about how people work, about how soft bombling used. Did you find yourself diversifying and it sounds like that's gone a long way beyond QRIP already?
Data Protection And AI Become Essential
SPEAKER_01Yes, I mean it it we never wanted to we never we're never gonna hold ourselves out as you know avoidable specialists or yet no hard trick to type into any other area in that sense. But yes, I would say once I P is always the central reason that people come to us for advice, you do wound up doing other things. For example, I don't think it's possible to advise anyone. What are your business though? If you can talk to one about data protection, yeah, because you have you ever threatened data enhancers, you have to be able to advising those things. Um again, if people come to us and they build one of the most common P disputes that you get is between people and their forward employers. What's some financial information or what's not, what's IP in the course of the file and what's not. You know, I'm a freelancer when I'm uh client as a developer or whatever, but I do this stuff over here on the side, so is the rules for Hacker. So you have to look for some power contract, you have to all build a biopolia. Um so yeah, we do IP, IC, DP disk section, and commonly the one we're all gonna have to add to our the string we're gonna have to add to our poll is um AI and regression. You're not me, you're not gonna have to look to high into the straight face over in the next two, three, five years, and enough understands the implications of using all the technology in the data switch, everyone is gonna be doing. Yeah, and if we don't have an understanding about what data sets are being used, does it pertain copyright material does laws affect by database rights and the data protection issues, and what are the implications of how that's used? Because there were C AIE clauses and all sorts of contracts around restrictions on using customary cloud data for training models and stuff. So yeah, always want to be IP specialists. Um, but it's healthier than to have an interest in what's happening in the world around you. Yeah. In the economy, with light, with technology, in the culture, I think that drives a bit what you have to know about. And if you're a big curious about the world, you're gonna read about that stuff. You don't want to know about it. So
How Glamour Looks In Real IP
SPEAKER_01you talked about um some big companies out there and the IP and yeah, my world, a lot of it is on CETOs and teletons and keep your own stuff was sound that you got some finding glamorous lyricks going on here. Is it as glamorous as it sounds? Not a little bit about freelance employment concepts, but we're he is it is full. Yeah, it's I think it depends. Some of the some of the clients that are glamorous, if you like. I don't know I don't know what certain name names, but some of the clients that are glamorous. We're not necessarily doing particularly glamorous work for them. It's trademark portfolio management and it's you know as countfitting programs and it's that kind of stuff. And actually, sometimes the more glamorous work that you do, and the stuff that gets you in the newspaper gets you reported, gets you in the guard, or whatever you talk about on the podcast, is where you the bit of a day big a lie at all oil eye. And you know, you've got some big brand who's engaging in a bit of grandvoyer, they five trademark opposition, asserting that some trademark is the fees I see here, which in sorts of trademark land, maybe, yeah, but in terms of real-world profusion? No, this is just not publishing a problem. And very often small businesses and individuals get pushed over by it because they are rightly worried about costs of legal services and cancel it on somebody else has blah blah blah. But every so often we get one sort of hero who will just point for it to the say. Come on, give us one. Um there must be one that's right the way through to completion. We can talk about it. That's right the way through to completion. Yeah, I'm not gonna name him a gahaz. I I'm not sure about the I'm not sure about the implications, but there was a large French pharmaceutical company, which you would have heard of, which had a um which have fundraised applications in every country on earth basically for this uh word I for them, I think it was in relation to something to do with uh face screens or hydrogenic acid or blah blah blah. And we had this sort of one man-band hairdresser who had been using his um hairdresser solar restaurant for years and years and years, and he also had a trademark for um also class three cosmetics, but his was for shampoo. And basically they s they tried to sort of push him over. Um, and we on a very, very narrow point around Paso Rods and Register Grides were able to sort of come lack and defend his position, and we ended up selling just because they were going to insist that they were getting what they wanted. They needed to be able to use their trademark in the UK, and we were in their way, and he ended up selling his trademark to them for huge one volume and retired. And he was he was originally saying he was gonna change the name, but I think in the end, I think in the end he just sort of he said, Well, actually it's a good day. I don't think that's way better than the day people on it, sorry, because David had no accent. Yeah, sorry, that's uh yeah, that's not necessarily accent. No, no, it's not like David just have to keep on fighting giants. Yeah, but I suppose that's what I sort of what I mean. Well, maybe David David's a bad way to talk about it, but it's about sort of really, really having a good conversation with the client about what they actually want. Like what is a win for them, what's the sort of outcome they want, and trying to find the best way to achieve the outcome they want, which isn't always actually you know, we're going to court, so instigating, getting stuck in opposition proceedings. Sometimes it's about being good with the soft skills, the kind of stuff they don't really teach you much at law school. Uh, you know, being a good boat sailor, being able to solve to your colleagues professionally, and just solving a problem. Using the law to solve a problem, that that gives me that gives me a bit of fire.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_01And sometimes I guess talking people down also beef with a big fight to me, occasionally if you shouldn't be people say, but I don't care as a matter of principle now. I'm folks with a lawyer because you have a lot of money to myself attention to the case. Yeah, and again, I I I always remember that one of the uh lecturers in Law School Academy, it's not your job to be your client's counselor and don't get stuck in it. Don't get stuck in that role out. I remember not really thinking what she I always sort of understand me, what she meant. I sort of get it now. Um, but actually, to your point, I found in my job that being empathetic and engaging with how frustrators how like the white spot anger that the client feels at the sense of injustice at what's happening, but at the same time being able to communicate with the monastery. You know, being able to move from an initial contact again, it's incredibly frustrating. Yes, they are in the wrong boss bit of perspective, and it I have an objectivity here, but you just don't say that in a way that it doesn't sound like sending me and so it's helping them, and almost always they come back at the end of it with the benefit of you know passage tying a lot of rest of it when they say I'm so glad that we did this what we did, yeah. I mean we didn't get stuck in this because it's got a mobile five days and it put it costs. You know, but I'd say I know people who have had to remark their house because they got stuck in it. Yeah, it was a point principle that's just about. I remember the car was funny and people are talking to the other side looking for settlement position, and I said, I'd rather eat hedgehogs. Right. And I said, it's music to allow his ears, and that's that's not stopped. It's music for music for shift, yeah. I suspect the hedgehogs are not happy bags. Yeah. Yes, obviously, it's not a banner white violation.
Brand Bullying And The PR Backlash
SPEAKER_01I think I've got no. I don't know if it's this this maybe I don't I don't know. One thing I've noticed uh it's a little creative in this case is being run as much through social media as they are through the courts and so you see much of them? Yeah, some of that. Yeah, I have to say I don't have a huge amount of experience of that, but I certainly uh there's two that jumped to mind. And maybe this will be this will be the day go I've picks that you're after. One was there was a woman, um, she's certainly in England, but I can't remember where she had a small tobacco brand called Xanna. And Zara came after her. And she um was one of these people who dubbed her heels and said, actually, this is ridiculous. Yeah, if you look at it in an academic sense, Zara and Zana are definitely similar visionally, phonetically, conceptually, the goods and services where they tell the quietly side position. Well, real world's likely with confusion walking down the street while I see Zana over a door. Is it any universe in which I keep that Zara? Probably the sign by Godfire. And definitely she's not benefiting from Zara's um reputation, and I'm not gonna change my mind about why the Zara's t-shirt got in my research, but yeah, it's just not it doesn't follow legit me. Um, and she's an example of someone who did a huge thing on Twitter, she's huge thing BBC, and there was a whole story in media about like brand bullying, and it really resonated with people. And if I was sitting on Zara's board of directors, and this is probably something that's like 10 steps below that paper, probably someone's at the middle of the road level in the legal department who's in charge of what letters go out and what acquisitions get filed and abandoned, they probably said, Oh, this is openly shop, let's just do it. Yeah, never thought about the reputational risk. Yeah, the legal risk with racial case is basically zero. It costs orders, costs the captains up. Um so it it was probably one of those things that made Zara say, Yeah, this is crazy. Like, stop this. This is where this is where we're gonna turn public opinion against us. And the other one thing was where Hugo Boss did something similar. They obviously have trademarks for boss, and then I think Poving Wales that applied in Class 25 because they wanted to have like merchandise t-shirts for that club, but they were not even at Phobo Company. And it was was it boss? I think actually maybe it was boss or something stand to be like boss. Again, Hugo Boss adapted them, and they got Joe Nights. Joe Lightsmith, yeah, I remember the story, yeah, yeah. He changed his name by Deepall to Hugo Boss so that he could change his Twitter handle to Hugo Boss. And then I can't even I can't even remember the end of the sword, but I remember just thinking that was ringing it. Yeah, that was just the most um I remember the sword, yeah. Yeah, yeah. But I mean this there's a there's a more sort of serious answer to your question, which is that in big litigation, certainly in the US, I'm not sure if it's it's probably dear, you your first goal is a lawyer, and the second call is a media consultance, a consolidance, and you usually manage the cons around and the PR around the litigation. I felt that because they called him Cat's filler, sorry. Say that completely in the press. Yeah, I don't yeah, I never felt that at least Colin Cross is really got that media consultants and little always a gone side of Percy because they just didn't the whole dimension was not yet as a bearish thing. And yeah, I still I mean in many ways I think that's hard because there are so many cases involving there's so many cases like that involved with the sort of little an LD type disputes. Yeah. If you walk into Little Morale, there's loads and loads of examples of oh it's it's not Calor Scorflex, it's the little version of Calor Scorflex. And it's it's in that sort of team whiskey, whatever. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I've seen that before you sort of look at it and you say, Yeah, I guess that it's a you know, they've made it so that it looks like Copa Pops, but I immediately know that it's not Copa Pops, so it's you know it's not even an issue of just confusion. It's certainly not passing up. Maybe this copyright infringement would just copyright is attached to the overall get up, but probably actually it's lawful, yeah. Whatever. And one time out of, you know, 20, you get one that actually has slipped over the line. Actually, it copyright infringement, the typical whatever. But you for that reason, because this stuff actually happens very frequently, it was surprising a call cat for those got such got such um traction. And maybe it was because it was a kid's product, maybe it was because it was one of those fun, you know, our products. It was just sort of funny. Yeah. We've talked about a lot of contentious stuff. Uh-huh. Presumably you also have stories about um people that come along to you that you advise them, and they actually make it in a big way from a really creative beginning.
A Client Who Scaled Worldwide
SPEAKER_01Without too much, but what's your great success story too? Common beginnings. Yeah. Again, I don't know, I don't know, I sort of how much I can say about this, but one of my one of my own very, very early clients was someone who I went to university with, actually. I've known him for years. And he um he did an arts degree in Corporate University, and he went on study, uh think to war studies for something very specific on that. He worked as a consultant for a while. Um, and then he came to me about less than a year after a briff, I think, and he said you're starting up this new company with my business partner, and we're going to be um country and bonded extremism online. And I circled Google either what he was talking about, but he explains to me about what is this system. I mean, I guess that's a command be fumble shot from Jap CVE country while it's still. And they are now, if you think about everything that's happened in the world over the last decade, they are now probably one of the biggest companies in the world for countering online art. How are gender one? So, if you think about all the source terrorist attacks that are gonna happen after 20 uh 16 and 2020, election shows everything happened after brace at all. Everything that happens in the online space with racism, gender-based violence, countering, uh sorry, uh that transsexual exploitation was low and conspiracy theories or misinformation, that's yeah, misinformation, like it is even growth. That's a bold sector. And from from what I call was an initial meeting with friends to help him get his contracts autolog and straight marks registered, and became probably some of the most complex and interesting work that I've done, as I said about the because they've advised governments fall over the world, they've advised all big tech companies, Google WhatsApp, blah blah blah, on how to get this Larf content and of Spotify out of the platform, their apple book. And it's a really interesting cross-section of those areas that I mentioned. This is oohs of IP obviously, because copyers are their technology, there's lots of trade secrets of prior stuff. And but also it's really interesting that sections used to think about lots of interesting uh emerging issues now around how data is gathered and use and be also issues to consider in the future. But yeah, that's probably I mean there are loads of other stories like that at Briffat in general because we tend to lead people at the brave swall sage, and then they go and become that amazing businesses in eBay. Um when I told Briff about that be why I love my job and why think it's good to work for a small firm or just the work with Zoopla's big firm. Um I always remind myself that even while I work for a big firm myself, I never really felt the buzz that other people seems to feel. About like having worked on a deal for a big household main bank for our deal with sector is in the Financial Times, I could be like, oh yeah, I see that deal, yeah, I worked on that deal, I looked at those disagreements with adventurers. Maybe I need a name to our stuff, but it means literally not a deal. Whereas if I walk out of the escalator or walk up the escalator at an engine tube station as I do every day, and I see a sign on the tube, or I see a sign where I walk out in the street, and I say, Oh yeah, I know the owner of that business on the shelves in White Rose. Oh yeah, I register that trademark, or I see someone on the side of the bus like, oh yeah, I did that. And I get that's much more fulfilling for me. Isn't the coolest hook to click someone into IP? I don't know what this is. Yeah, no, it's uh just folks. I've not seen a bus drive pots with a meatle what's having to. Yeah, so yeah, yeah. I did not bacon. Yeah. Not baking. Not very bad. I doing the soundkeeping thing, they're they're about to spill them off, right? Yeah, rattled through again. I mean, thanks so much for um coming to a pub. For an Irishman must be a good experience.
SPEAKER_02They have never been here before.
SPEAKER_01So thank you. Thank you for suffering these strange environments. Um but good, we need to do
Counterfeits, Confessions, And Stripping Brands
SPEAKER_01a close-up. And shall I shall I stick with my original then? Is that is that so um so uh surely you've never knowingly bought something that was uh a ripoff or uh an imitation or a fake or you you wouldn't do that, would you? I I I would but I know this other guy. Uh tell us all about this other guy then. No, when I was when I was a kid in Hong Kong, you um you could buy fake Rolexes, you could buy fake fake Rolexes, and I think real fake Rolexes. There are actually two flances of fake Rolex you find. The fake dot Rolexes would last like three minutes and had a digital movie aside. The real real Rolexes actually put decent watches. But with all of the Rolex deal that you usually would have married a rolex, you know. And I didn't even I always I remember I remember thinking, oh let me fill up a breaking meaning. Sorry! My friend always said to me, I never felt like a breaking meals. And then used to go through um Thailand a lot, and um my dad I don't get rid of it, and then my friend's dad used to buy faint football shirts for my kids, which your son uh future son-in-law who lives with us and doesn't pay any money or contribute in any right at all. Yeah, I don't see it. My kids are beckon shirts, all pounds and stuff, and uh I'm not my friends to I've not done this very well, have I probably gonna get arrested not Scott yet. It's criminal, isn't it? Yeah, yeah. So we go to our guests, who yeah, yeah, you haven't, have you? Ye yeah, so no well, not recently, but I'm not gonna lie, I too have been sliders, and I too have bought sunglasses that were suspiciously cheap for the hand for the brand on the new butler and leave it there. No, never. No, I'm on the name. You've got any friends then? I'm well I'm with friends. Okay, because I'm gonna do a business, and I never wear sunglasses and I never wear four force. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Uh oh, all of those things. All those things. Colleagues have friends? So I used I used to do something probably the opposite. So I was I was quite a keen cricketer when I was growing up, but a mad kick mad keen cricketer. But I hated bats that were plastered with the makers' marks and stuff like that. So I used to immediately buy them and strip them of everything, so I was just able to find that.
SPEAKER_02Well.
SPEAKER_01So it's to get rid of any kind of reference uh where it came from, it's origin and stuff like that. So it was just it's a thing that I did. Did the brand make any difference to quality back? Because you could have been masking your skill, they couldn't not realise what BCV had. Absolutely. Yeah, so best best background when I was growing up was Duncan Friendly. Uh it may not have been the best background, but it was the one that Othram trade did. So it's the one. Yeah, that's it. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, but the first thing I always did, strip it, strip it back there. So no one knew I searched for non-new. Yeah, that's the weapon. Yeah, no, yeah, absolutely right. So that seems like a really good place to leave the podcast. Oh, yeah. Apologies for my co-host. He's not even really into the beer yet, so yeah, I don't I don't know. I don't know where that came from. Uh thanks for coming on. That's a great, great uh podcast. Brilliant chat. Really enjoyed it. Well, I'll see you on the next one if you dare turn up.
Final Laughs And Listener Thank You
SPEAKER_01Uh and thanks everyone for listening. You know the score, you've listened to the podcast, it's been a great listen. So give us a little kind of thank you online somewhere so other people find us.